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Destraex    990

You have to remember they are Ukrainian Devs. In English Armour is simply the wooden planks on the side of the ship. Structure would be the interior being completely destroyed without the side to protect it. Basically making the ship un-fightable. A floating ship with its insides mashed to a pulp. By the time you destroy the interior most modules, deck planks, cannon and crew would be gone I think (you could if you wanted add the ships ribs to that including the interior planks). IMHO a crew would surrender at this stage.

 

manofwar2.jpg

unnamed81.jpg

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Aegir    1,671
9 hours ago, Pablo Frias said:

First PB of this server: The "friendly" fort almost  destroys its own ship. This issue has to be fixed

Here are some more pictures just to showcase that it was deliberately targeting the defending ship, and not just getting caught in the line of fire.

20170130153608_1.jpg

20170130153622_1.jpg

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ryan_c    2
On 2017/1/28 at 6:03 AM, McArdbeg said:

 

me and my clan mate tried the same, would be nice if you can reset the char on the testbed

same to me ,DEV plz , give another chance for the redeemable , PLZ , Orz  

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akd    2,622
15 hours ago, Destraex said:

You have to remember they are Ukrainian Devs. In English Armour is simply the wooden planks on the side of the ship. Structure would be the interior being completely destroyed without the side to protect it. Basically making the ship un-fightable. A floating ship with its insides mashed to a pulp. By the time you destroy the interior most modules, deck planks, cannon and crew would be gone I think (you could if you wanted add the ships ribs to that including the interior planks). IMHO a crew would surrender at this stage.

 

manofwar2.jpg

 

 

Nonsense.  Exterior planking will hardly resist grapeshot on its own.  A wooden sailing ship's "armor" was its structure, and the degree to which structure provided "armor" (i.e. resisted penetration of shot), it protected the crew and guns behind the structure, not some internal squishy structure that was holding the ship together.  The exception is the beams, but these also have to be penetrated, and from the side they represent the thickest "armor" on the ship (because you must penetrate side planking, frame, interior planking and beam).  Technically the "armor" of a ship where a beam meets a frame is the full width of the ship!  From the stern or bow, multiple beams would have to be hit directly (they are only a tiny area of the space presented from bow or stern) and then penetrated in succession, which would require heavy, high velocity shot.

A ship is not a tootsie pop!

 

Edited by akd

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Sir Texas Sir    3,660
On 1/29/2017 at 3:18 PM, Hethwill said:

If you notice in the tests there are no more empty bars tanking. Impossible to pull that out now.

Yah you know exactly how much player has left before they are truelly finished off.  We seen a lot of guys save there repair for when armor is stripped down on won side and should be sinking to suddenly repair and run cause we got in a habit of letting them go thinking they are going to just sink.   I lived through a few port battles just cause I turned every thing off and just sat there with crew all in survival.  Now you can't do that cause they will see exactly how much you have left.  I like the new system though think a few tweeks are needed still.   

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Yar Matey    760
13 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Yah you know exactly how much player has left before they are truelly finished off.  We seen a lot of guys save there repair for when armor is stripped down on won side and should be sinking to suddenly repair and run cause we got in a habit of letting them go thinking they are going to just sink.   I lived through a few port battles just cause I turned every thing off and just sat there with crew all in survival.  Now you can't do that cause they will see exactly how much you have left.  I like the new system though think a few tweeks are needed still.   

Using your repair after the armor is stripped down to nothing is a risky thing to do.  Yes, I do it sometimes, but it requires WAY more crew to do this.  You need crew on survival, on top of more crew than you normally would in repair.  Also, any shots to that side with the armor stripped down is going to kill a lot more crew.  Yes you can squeeze more HP out of your ship by doing this, but it is extremely risky and it doesn't always work out for my enemy and it doesn't always workout for me.  When the armor is stripped and the enemy keeps taking on water, it is really easy to stay on that side because the water in the ship slows the ship down significantly.  On top of this, it takes a lot longer to get back into the fight doing this strategy.  You have to repair the ship to a point where you are no longer taking in water, then you have to pump the water out of the ship. 

 

Edited by Yar Matey

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maturin    5,454
17 hours ago, Destraex said:

You have to remember they are Ukrainian Devs. In English Armour is simply the wooden planks on the side of the ship. Structure would be the interior being completely destroyed without the side to protect it. Basically making the ship un-fightable. A floating ship with its insides mashed to a pulp. By the time you destroy the interior most modules, deck planks, cannon and crew would be gone I think (you could if you wanted add the ships ribs to that including the interior planks). IMHO a crew would surrender at this stage.

 

manofwar2.jpg

 

This picture doesn't show any "structure" at all, besides deck planks and beams (only small parts of which can be hit and no ship ever suffered serious battle damage to them).

The big beams in the middle are the riding bits for holding anchor cable, and they have no structural importance. On the deck above is just an oven.

That leaves the guns and crew and pumps, none of which are structurally important, and all of which already have hitboxes in the excellent damage model that was so carefully developed. 

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Sir Texas Sir    3,660
1 hour ago, Yar Matey said:

Using your repair after the armor is stripped down to nothing is a risky thing to do.  Yes, I do it sometimes, but it requires WAY more crew to do this.  You need crew on survival, on top of more crew than you normally would in repair.  Also, any shots to that side with the armor stripped down is going to kill a lot more crew.  Yes you can squeeze more HP out of your ship by doing this, but it is extremely risky and it doesn't always work out for my enemy and it doesn't always workout for me.  When the armor is stripped and the enemy keeps taking on water, it is really easy to stay on that side because the water in the ship slows the ship down significantly.  On top of this, it takes a lot longer to get back into the fight doing this strategy.  You have to repair the ship to a point where you are no longer taking in water, then you have to pump the water out of the ship. 

 

exactly and throw in a sudden grape and crew shock and it's all over.  

Now if we can only get AI to do this. I been noticing it doesn't follow the same rules and can some times take over a min to sink.  Than again I think this is part of another topic where it seems the AI ships have all the mods in game.

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Yar Matey    760
28 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Now if we can only get AI to do this. I been noticing it doesn't follow the same rules and can some times take over a min to sink.  Than again I think this is part of another topic where it seems the AI ships have all the mods in game.

The AI is deffinetly cheating, they take forever to sink, they somehow manage to reload cannons like no problem after losing significant amounts of crew and have marines.  

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I agree with those who say that the internal structure of a ship is minimal and relative to the ribs and horizontal beams; all things very difficult to hit / damage / destroy shooting on the stern.

Pics form a Belle Poule model                                                                                                                                                                                       

 -  structure:

chanti10.jpg

 -  section:

plan_m10.jpg

I leave to you the relative considerations ...

Edited by JeanJacques de Montpellier

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Stilgar    315
11 hours ago, ryan_c said:

same to me ,DEV plz , give another chance for the redeemable , PLZ , Orz  

I think you could just delete your character. Wait for 5 mins or so, then make a new one (even with the same name), and you should start from scratch.

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Lannes    157
18 hours ago, Destraex said:

You have to remember they are Ukrainian Devs. In English Armour is simply the wooden planks on the side of the ship. Structure would be the interior being completely destroyed without the side to protect it. Basically making the ship un-fightable. A floating ship with its insides mashed to a pulp. By the time you destroy the interior most modules, deck planks, cannon and crew would be gone I think (you could if you wanted add the ships ribs to that including the interior planks). IMHO a crew would surrender at this stage.

 

manofwar2.jpg

 

LOOK! 18th Century sailors with UNIFORMS. Now, wouldn't it be nice if our crews were properly uniformed? Sailors, Marines, Officers on deck, all in uniform. What a nice touch, developers! Why not?

(Thanks Destraex for the picture.)

Edited by Lannes

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maturin    5,454

Technically there were no uniforms for common seamen. Some form of duck trousers, jackets, tarpaulins, etc. Many men would buy clothing from the ship, meaning that it would be similar in practice, but by no means identical or standard.

In combat most of the gun crews would probably be shirtless anyways.

The current in-game crew do look like landsmen with their bookstore clerk vests. 

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Destraex    990
5 hours ago, Lannes said:

LOOK! 18th Century sailors with UNIFORMS. Now, wouldn't it be nice if our crews were properly uniformed? Sailors, Marines, Officers on deck, all in uniform. What a nice touch, developers! Why not?

(Thanks Destraex for the picture.)

Marines and Officers on deck with uniforms would be a nice touch. But Sailors with no uniforms is fine. Especially when they are about their duties, not on parade.

P.S. A test server update seems to have just been rolled out? Patch notes?

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I don't post this on the structural damage feedback as i've not been on the test server yet, but i've read many feedback and videos of the structural damage feedback.

 

 Here is what i suggest: rename "structural damage"  into "combativity" or "moral". Just remove the weakening of masts related to it.

Instead add a similar "structural healthbar" that can be reduced by damaging sails and masts. here you can rename it "riggings" make it drop masts and reduce mast turn and sails drop speed when very low.

 

 Why ?  

1- Breaking masts from stern rake and shooting planking makes no sense. Instead raking was a huge "demotivator" for crews and officers even if loss where not that big: the actual structure hp seems to represent it quite well.

2- Counting as a kill when your structure reach zero, surprisingly seems to allow us to fight more historically: throwing ballshots into eachothers hull, and capturing the defeated ship, even without boarding and even better, without sinking it.

3- My mast structure suggestion, in a same way the now tested "structure" healthbar could represent combat willingness of a crew,  introduce a secondary abstract healthbar to represent mast and rigging strength. This bar would not grant kill but would penalise ship handling (mast turn speed, sails raising speed, mast breaking) This bar would not grant a kill when empty but would significate a ship with no manoeuvering at all. This bar can be quite strong it will need testing, but she can be lowered even by shooting balls into already damaged sails parts. 

I think this could help rebalance combats between differents sized ships.

 

 Please try this, at first i was "meh" about the structure bar but i finally think this could be a quite good compromise. 

 

 

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maturin    5,454
Quote

Breaking masts from stern rake shooting planking makes no sense

Well, it does make sense, but it's way overblown and too abstracted right now.

Masts should never fall unless you actually shoot the hitbox. I've wanted hull damage (whether planking or structure) to weaken masts for years now.* But you should still need to hit the mast itself for the coup de grace, whether above or below decks.

 

 

*The chainplates, channels, shrouds and stays that support the masts are all liable to damage by shot aimed at the gun crews.

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Lannes    157
On 31/01/2017 at 6:50 PM, maturin said:

Technically there were no uniforms for common seamen. Some form of duck trousers, jackets, tarpaulins, etc. Many men would buy clothing from the ship, meaning that it would be similar in practice, but by no means identical or standard.

In combat most of the gun crews would probably be shirtless anyways.

The current in-game crew do look like landsmen with their bookstore clerk vests. 

I grieve for your blindness. How do you play Naval Action when you cannot see? :D

Seriously, though. Since the evidence as presented shows sailors, officers and marines in uniform--and other books on this subject also--why do you persist with this fantasy that 'technically' (whatever that means, maybe, you mean in effect) they wore no uniforms?

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Lannes    157
On 01/02/2017 at 0:01 AM, Destraex said:

Marines and Officers on deck with uniforms would be a nice touch. But Sailors with no uniforms is fine. Especially when they are about their duties, not on parade.

P.S. A test server update seems to have just been rolled out? Patch notes?

I like to see them as if on parade. After all, wargames is about colour, too.

(I hate it that Attila Total War has muted colour in comparison to the colourful preceding games.)

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maturin    5,454
4 hours ago, Lannes said:

I grieve for your blindness. How do you play Naval Action when you cannot see? :D

Seriously, though. Since the evidence as presented shows sailors, officers and marines in uniform--and other books on this subject also--why do you persist with this fantasy that 'technically' (whatever that means, maybe, you mean in effect) they wore no uniforms?

If the artist in that unnamed coloring book of yours was too lazy to draw more than one kind of shirt, that is not my problem. (Do you imagine that the brown shirts in the depicted 'uniform' are for left-handed seamen or something?)

If you have issues reading books without pictures in them, I will refer you to Boudriot's The Seventy-Four Gun Ship, where there are many full-page color illustrations of French seamen and petty officers wearing a variety of costumes, none of which are uniforms.

Or you could spend fifteen seconds on Google: http://www.thedearsurprise.com/a-brief-history-of-royal-navy-uniforms/

(There is a picture in this text too)

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Destraex    990

@Lannes - This is what you would commonly see during battle.
 

51AENBTMC8L._AC_UL320_SR238,320_.jpg

From Osprey British Frigate vs French Frigate 1793-1814 by Mark Lardas that I own:

I have the British perspective as well but this is the French perspective. They are pretty much the same. I agree that the Officers and Marines should be uniformed but the rest of the crew on duty.......they should be fairly random. But not too random.

32739087506_a6c46bdd45.jpg

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Ink    2,339

Captains, testbed server was stopped. Thank you for participation and feedback!

 

Updated: Testbed server is live again

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PongoNW    35

Makes perfect sense that the only place that tells you how to get on the test server is this thread. Well in English anyway.

Get a grip

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Uilleam    36

Ok, decided I would try the test bed...

Initially, things seemed to be working ok.  I 'captured" a traders brig, but of course I couldn't keep it, but no goods to collect either.  On returning to port, nothing available to buy, not resources, or cannons, nothing at all.  So reloaded the game and shop worked correctly.  Bought a bigger ship, put cannons on it, and exited to open world from Charleston.  Found myself surrounded by french ships, at Grand Anse.  yep, the game loaded me into the Dominica county area from Charleston!

 

Currently out in the middle of nowhere, waiting for the 2 hour countdown timer to hit zero so I can TP back to Charleston.

 

Not a  good start to the test bed server for me.

Uilleam.

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Vernon Merrill    2,436

TP doesn't take you back to capital now.  Just as an FYI.  It takes you to the nearest deep water port.   And you have to assign crew (press x) when you cap a ship to access its hold now. 

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