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Antietam (Confederate Side)


AegorBlackfyre

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I would like to thank Hitorishizuka and KaleRaven.  With your tips, and some improved maneuvering/skirmishing by me I have manged a reasonable casualty figure on Antietam.  A very challenging, fun battle.  Definitely the hardest for me personally by far.  The successive waves just made it hard to manage.

 

 

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On 12/16/2016 at 6:10 PM, Hitorishizuka said:

Yeah, the Antietam scaling is a little ridiculous. As usual, ran out of supply on almost everyone, even with capturing a couple early supply from the enemy. The hard cap on Supply just isn't meant to deal with these kinds of numbers, it's pretty frustrating.

Confederate_Antietam_Results.jpg

Did you have a full 5 x 25k supply wagons in addition to the two wagons you captured? By Antietam I always max out all five wagons, have three career points in logistics, and all cannons get the logistics upgrade. I only run out of ammo at the last hour and blast away the whole time. 

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3 hours ago, GeneralPITA said:

Did you have a full 5 x 25k supply wagons in addition to the two wagons you captured? By Antietam I always max out all five wagons, have three career points in logistics, and all cannons get the logistics upgrade. I only run out of ammo at the last hour and blast away the whole time.

3 wagons, I didn't deploy the 4th Corps and the 10th AO point is kind of a waste.

But even if that's the solution, it means you still can't deploy troops from the 4th Corps (and you eventually probably will want to) so this doesn't really solve anything.

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I found the key to Antietam if you are playing the Grey, is the left Flank.   If you allow the Union to establish a presence anywhere in the Dunkir church woods (The woods that stretch north from the church, and then make a right angle to move west) you are in big trouble.   I throw the majority of my forces, and my most veteran troops to my left Flank.   This also allows them to be present for the majority of the battle.   If your troops can hold through the Union onslaught there, then you should have reserves in place to support your smaller forces later in the fight at The Sunken road, and then the Eastern Bridges and Fords.   Hold the woods Dunker woods boys.   Hold the woods.   If the Union establishes a presence there, you are in really really big trouble.

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On 12/25/2016 at 0:44 PM, Col_Kelly said:

Mmmh, it kinda proves that melee cav should be tuned down, at least when engaging their own allies in melee. I'll let you imagine what such tactics would give in real life (not to mention that cav charging infantry was a pretty rare thing at that time, horses weren't trained to charge formations like they were in the middle-age).

Using them to counter charge will give the player an unfair advantage as his lines will become insensitive to mass breakthroughs.

Congrats on such results however.

Gotta disagree.   I think the melee Cav is just about right.   They do crush for a ridiculous amount of damage.   However, its very risky.   The AI will almost always focus fire on Melee cavalry, and it doesn't take much fire to route them.   If find they are best used against solo units, that aren't supported by other infantry.   They are also excellent defense agaisnt quick moving ranged units such as skirmishers and other cavalry.   I will use them as a smash melee charge sparingly, and only when I need a really quick burst of Kills per Minute, which is the mechanic that determines if a unit will route or not.   

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So technically you're saying that it's great because you have an opportunity to bring 'super fast' damage on large brigades (skirmishers I dont mind) and get out of a situation in which the player should not be able to get away from in the first place. It's not realistic, and it's not fun either to beat hard scenarios easily just because you've got a unit of 3 stars cav able to counter charge anything and destroy entire brigades.

Just my pov of course, but I still find it's too bad. 

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1 hour ago, Col_Kelly said:

So technically you're saying that it's great because you have an opportunity to bring 'super fast' damage on large brigades (skirmishers I dont mind) and get out of a situation in which the player should not be able to get away from in the first place. It's not realistic, and it's not fun either to beat hard scenarios easily just because you've got a unit of 3 stars cav able to counter charge anything and destroy entire brigades.

Just my pov of course, but I still find it's too bad. 

It is realistic, as far as I am concerned.   There were certainly situations where a smash cavalry charge in the Civil war was enough to break a much larger rank of men.   Especially men who were already hurting from prior damage.   

Trust me, if you think a cavalry unit can counter charge ANYTHING, you are flat wrong.   Time it wrong, or have them place wrong, and they are routed.   Keep them in combat too long, and they are routed.   A counter cavalry charge works SOMETIMES, in the right situation.   But there are many times when those cavalry get a teeth full of lead.   

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1 hour ago, Col_Kelly said:

So technically you're saying that it's great because you have an opportunity to bring 'super fast' damage on large brigades (skirmishers I dont mind) and get out of a situation in which the player should not be able to get away from in the first place. It's not realistic, and it's not fun either to beat hard scenarios easily just because you've got a unit of 3 stars cav able to counter charge anything and destroy entire brigades.

Just my pov of course, but I still find it's too bad. 

I'll say one more thing.   I played many of my first battles, believing as you do, that the Cavalry charge is overpowered.  However, after having HUGE atrocity and death rates for my cavalry units, time and time again, I had to learn over time when, and how to apply the Auxiliary cavalry charge.   There are situations where it's absolutely the right move.   However, there are many other situations where you send those cavalrymen to their death, when you choose to implement it.   

If you are getting lots of 3 star cavalry units, you are either a Military cavalry genius, who knows exactly when to apply them, and when to not.   Or else you are spending HUGE amounts of money, on keeping those units at strength.   I find it very hard to get a cavalry unit even to two star, short of maybe the Forrest Unit that the confederates get in the campaign.   

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You don't have to have a lot of them, one or two is enough, and yes they're not so hard to get (Im no genius) if you only send them into 'auxiliary charges', just pull them out soon enough. Believe me I've seen enough to confirm that a good melee cav unit can get up to 4000 kills in one battle....

I started doing it when I switched on hard and once I found that trick I was amazed at how amazing those results where. Eventually it gets boring though as you see those anachronic heavy knights destroying rank after rank of soldiers equipped with bayonets. 

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18 minutes ago, Col_Kelly said:

You don't have to have a lot of them, one or two is enough, and yes they're not so hard to get (Im no genius) if you only send them into 'auxiliary charges', just pull them out soon enough. Believe me I've seen enough to confirm that a good melee cav unit can get up to 4000 kills in one battle....

I started doing it when I switched on hard and once I found that trick I was amazed at how amazing those results where. Eventually it gets boring though as you see those anachronic heavy knights destroying rank after rank of soldiers equipped with bayonets. 

Yes, I keep picturing the opening Scene from Dances with Wolves, where Kevin Costner loses his mind, and grabs the horse to ride in front of the entire battle line.   I agree that the smash melee charge is a bit silly at times, and was used quite infrequently throughout the war.   However, I think the balance for Risk vs. Reward is about right, or very close to it, when it comes to this tactic and how it is currently implemented.    

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Kind of curious if there was an instance of a formed cavalry charge, sabers drawn, against formed infantry in the ACW, successful or unsuccessful? Talking about a large formation of course like a regiment at least.  They were certainly trained to charge with cold steel - but I thought that was cavalry vs cavalry skirmishes.

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The largest cavalry charge against infantry was conducted in 1864 at 3rd Winchester under excessively positive circumstances : 1/1 ratio and an attack from the rear while the confederates were already busy with Union infantry. Even then it took several charges to drive the rebs off the town. It kinda prooves how undecisive such a tactical move could be by the 1860's, especially since the Americans never really had a 'shock cavalry' culture like many European nations.

And we certainly don't hear of examples of a cavalry unit charging to support infantry. (What a mess would that have been)

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 12/24/2016 at 9:18 PM, Hitorishizuka said:

FWIW, an alternate approach:

 

 

On 12/24/2016 at 9:11 PM, KaleRaven said:

I took a relatively forward defensive position straddling the northernmost fence fortifications. I

I kinda used a combination of Hitorishizuka's and Kale's strategies. Initially I put two brigades in the forest before Nicodemus Hill and an artillery battery, employing one of my elite 3 star brigades (Kemper's numbering 2000) to essentially... skirmish with the enemy. They attack the two brigades in the forest, I send Kemper to flank them. I then used Kemper and another brigade to cover the retreat of the brigades on Nicodemus.

I then used the fences and the forest to the west of the fences, creating a line down the vertical forest all the way to sunken road. There was a salient created, but after posting three brigades and an artillery battery near where 2nd Corps was going to cross the stone bridge near Sunken road... i essentially neutralized the flanking attack on the Sunken road and could basically use the troops along the Sunken Road (my 2nd corps) to attack the Union's flank whenever they tried to advance into the forest withdrawing my brigades before I got too overextended.

For the Stones Bridge, I put a 4 inf 1 artillery brigade division of my 3rd corps onto it... reinforcing them with damaged brigades from my 2nd corps as needed. I got this result, which I think was quite good.

2017-01-26 (3).png

 

Edited by vren55
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On 12/17/2016 at 3:10 AM, Hitorishizuka said:

Yeah, the Antietam scaling is a little ridiculous. As usual, ran out of supply on almost everyone, even with capturing a couple early supply from the enemy. The hard cap on Supply just isn't meant to deal with these kinds of numbers, it's pretty frustrating.

Confederate_Antietam_Results.jpg

Hitori, do you have a YouTube channel? I would really like to see how you play to achieve incredible results like in this battle.

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1 hour ago, Acika011 said:

Hitori, do you have a YouTube channel? I would really like to see how you play to achieve incredible results like in this battle.

I don't think he does but with 131.000 against 71.000 of mine, I suffered 27.000 casualties here.So the ratio of casualties is about the same compared to the numbers.

 

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32 minutes ago, Koro said:

I don't think he does but with 131.000 against 71.000 of mine, I suffered 27.000 casualties here.So the ratio of casualties is about the same compared to the numbers.

I still think those numbers are insane! Your casualties alone are more than my entire army at that point in my CSA campaign. :blink: This is what i ended up with:20170127163252_1.thumb.jpg.871f75be1fe1adb9604205f0fc25d124.jpg

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5 hours ago, Acika011 said:

Hitori, do you have a YouTube channel? I would really like to see how you play to achieve incredible results like in this battle.

Technically I do but it's tiny and I generally only upload Mechwarrior Online stuff since I can just use Shadowplay and record good matches. I'll try and remember to do a dedicated record of my next battles arbitrarily just to show them. I'm playing a min-size CSA campaign on Normal right now just for funsies, I should be getting close to Antietam again actually.

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I did it with about 9000 casualties out of 60000 or so engaged. Basically, initial defense along the northernmost fence line with two strong brigades in the woods backed by artillery north of nicodemus hill. As the Yankees move south I threw out skirmishes to get in flanking fire. This caused them to shift the line of advance to SE instead of S. as pressure at the copse grew too stronger a retrograde attack was ordered to the thin cover SE of the hill. Continue skirmishing to maintain contact new line is a straight E/W with plenty of artillery support in the heavy woods west of the fence. Clear fields of fire and the inability of being flanked whittled down the attackers significantly. As the attack developed to the west of the fences a counterattack on the far left reclaimed the copse, and allowed a new line to be formed from dunker church to the north. On previous plays the north corner of the woods were a real meat grinder due to flanking so gaining control of the left was instrumental to limiting casualties. Blocked the bridges with 5 brigades and slight artillery support. Threw reserves into the flanks of any attack at the sunken road while executing a massive envelopment around the left with the kessel centered on the wheat field just north of the sunken road. Keeping the Yankees from rallying in the woods is important. A swirling red soaked mass of blue became all that was left of the yankee right and center. Just don't get too near the edges or they'll try to drown you in their own blood.

Edited by Cuckoochoo
I forgot which east was which
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Well i just tried to play Antietam with around 35k men agains 70k enemies. My first atempt was a "succes" i got a victory but 75% of my army was destroyed. The money and manpower i got wasn't able to replenish half of my army. So i loaded a save before Antietam and basically retreated my whole army as soon as the battle started. It was a defeat and i lost 35 victory points but i was able to reinforce my army with ~7500 new soldiers and 24 new cannons.

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I lost 18k out of my 44k when in Antietam. I was happy with result-my saved manpower and heavy politics allowed me to completely replenish my army and add superior weaponry to units with left over money. Yankees didn't get anywhere close to the woods near dunker church because they got so hung up on nicodemus hill. Unfortunately, this meant around 50k concentrated on sunken road and flanking it! Ultimately, even burnside moved north and out of 73k union they lost 44k. Still happy with a victory though (not as impressive as some stated above).

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