Jump to content
Game-Labs Forum

Forthcoming shipbuilding changes [Heavily Moderated]


Recommended Posts

@Ruben van Woltering - why exactly is everybody after killing the big ships in game? We are at the exact same position as we are with all the other stuff. There are people who enjoy their gameplay in SOLs. Why do we want to lose these players? Might not be realistic to see so many of them but until you fix all the other unrealistic stuff why hit us?! Realism only has a use as long as it is fun.

If you want to use mechanics to limit the number of SOLs then make the port battles more diverse encouraging all sizes of ships in them. SOLs then become a thing for open world and PvE instead of 25vs25 engagements. This would mean everybody could ahve and sail/play one at any time but their usefulness is slightly reduce. Instead we're hammering the crap out of everything needed to make a SOL harming the crafters and traders and because you can't justify doing it only for SOLs this also extends to other ships. On top of that the game now has palyers being afraid of a fight as replacing a ship takes too much money or time. Was that really a good direction to take? Playernumbers would suggest otherwise.

I'd also like to point out that obtaining a blueprint hasn't been changed so you are somewhat forced to craft golden ships you don't want to have for fine woods requirements that render this a matter of countless months. I sure as hell don't want to lose my blueprints at this stage for it would take a year to get all of them back!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Coming back to shipbuilding...

First they said they gonna intro fine woods to get that WOW effect on the gold ships. Reality is that once you get your hands on fine timber you dont wanna waste on inferior ships. You would sit on it until you get enough to build gold.

Instead of walking away from this it just needs balancing as its good at its core. Making all ships grey as NPC and gold as player crafted will make this game even less customizable and attractive. Players need ownership of some unique items they got through event or crafting.

To rebalance current system break down fine woods into color. Each color goes for specific color ship.

So when you collect Oak for example it drops Grey Oak (common) that is usable as normal oak right now but also to build grey ships. In much lesser quantities it will have a drop of good oak (green) that is needed to build green ships, even lesser drop of fine oak (blue) for blue ships, purple is even lesser drop and gold is so rare that it takes weeks or maybe even months to get enough to build 1st rate. Players will start to build what they have resources for.

in OW make players to be able to tell what quality ships others are sailing. In reality you should be able to judge general quality of the ship by observing in the spyglass, don't you? Here is your WOW effect. 1st rates will become rare and most likely a combined effort of the entire clan.
Make all ships 1 dura and all of a sudden you will get OW full of ships of all sorts of qualities.

 

 

Edited by koltes
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, koltes said:

Players will start to build what they have resources for.

I know you want to believe that, but it isn't so. The fine woods patch taught us that everything grinds to a halt while all but everyone waits until they can build their idea of an optimal ship. Your colored wood thing would just exasperate the current problem.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, jodgi said:

I know you want to believe that, but it isn't so. The fine woods patch taught us that everything grinds to a halt while all but everyone waits until they can build their idea of an optimal ship. Your colored wood thing would just exasperate the current problem.

@jodgi This system works for all other games it has been implemented for and it will work for NA no exception. When you have plenty of green or blue mats to craft those ships would you not sail for 2-3 weeks until you get your gold ship or would you sail your green-blue while gathering resources for your gold? The answer is simple and common sense. Of course you will sail what you have available at the time. The asset wipe is a must for this to work and eventually we should be expecting it.

Also main reason why people are "waiting" for those gold ships is ONLY because it gives them number of upgrades to use. Remove permanent upgrades and make them installed when ship is built without ability to change later.

Make Regular upgrades 5 slots same for all quality ships. Instead make green ships be able to use only green upgrades or lower, blue ships blue upgrades or lower and so on, so only gold ships can use gold upgrades. This way you can still set your ship the way you like even if its green, just with less bonuses.

 

Sandbox - tick
Realism - tick
Diversity - tick
Ship variety - tick
Different quality of ship usefulness - tick

Edited by koltes
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, @koltes, that scenario only covers one or two months after wipe, I'm not too concerned with a passing phase. Eventually we get rich again and want the best stuff. For competitive play there is the best ships and there are all those that are less than that, we don't care what color or name they have. Since crafting was introduced I haven't sailed anything less than optimal ships (ok, one to maybe three in the grindup phase). I never will sail anything less than what I perceive as optimal build ships, I will literally take a break and wait for whatever it takes to make optimal ships again and then start playing, like I did after fine woods patch. It may not be common sense but I'm clearly not alone in this particular madness.

Your two last paragraphs actually sum up the proposed changes in the OP. The crafting system will move from straight upgrades to sidegrades, so we won't have the golden ships of today that are simply better in all aspects. This is great because it finally introduces the skill component into crafting: You think you know what the optimal frigate build is? Bring that thing to a fight and put it to the test.

We're getting three upgrade slots max. The mystery is whether that is equal for all crafted ships or just those with fine woods or whatever? I hope for three slots across the board to make the playing field more equal between newer (poor) and veteran (rich) players as far as fighting equipment goes. I'm going to be one of those old and rich players and I hope I'm not given the opportunity to make much better ships than the new guy. I love the new guy, he is more important than me.

Sandbox - Arright, if you love it so and we must, fine!
Diversity - The different ship types, their armament and speed profiles take care of that, no?
Ship variety - ^
Different quality of ship usefulness - How can anything of lesser quality be useful?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Sandbox - Arright, if you love it so and we must, fine!
Diversity - The different ship types, their armament and speed profiles take care of that, no?
Ship variety - ^
Different quality of ship usefulness - How can anything of lesser quality be useful?

@jodgi dont we already have it your way? Haven't this proved to upset lots of players and answer to which from devs was we gonna walk away from the current system?

Sandbox - this is sandbox game. not my idea, so yes it must be done unless we want to change everything again. i dont think we do. it will create even more mess.
Realism - you craft what you have mats for. this is reality. you mentioned that it will take you 2 months to sail gold again, maybe if its a 6-4th rate, but if you think you will sail 1st rates in 2-3 months then that means you missed my point. Gold ships, 3-1st rates needs to be very rare and very expensive to the point that its a combined effort of the clan to build one and its a trust worthy player who will be sailing it for the clan needs. For personal stuff it will be easier and safer to sail what you can afford to lose - EVE online moto.
Diversity - no it doesn't. the new system will pretty much give you what you currently have less quality variants (all player crafted ships will be gold thats it). moving sliders left and right will very quickly teach community an uber balance built and there you have your diversity. The system I propose is material dependent. Materials are vary of region and quality. Live Oak from Baracoa gives Build Strength bonus, Live Oak from Sunbury Strong Hull. You want to build your mast with more hit points and better armor, build it from Live Oak from Baracoa. It will give you amazing mast strength but lower your yard speed. Because its not simply what you select on slides, but rather your effort and mats availability. Plus there will be quality for each wood type and each material built. this will create huge diversity with minimal programming effort. Most of the stuff is already implemented. No need to reprogram half of the game mechanics.
Ship variety - ^
Different quality of ship usefulness - if it takes 2 months to build gold ship you got to sail some how. Also loosing your gold ship is going to be wallet breaking, so lesser priced ships will be more useful due to their lower cost.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, koltes said:

@jodgi dont we already have it your way? Haven't this proved to upset lots of players and answer to which from devs was we gonna walk away from the current system?

Realism - you craft what you have mats for. this is reality. you mentioned that it will take you 2 months to sail gold again, maybe if its a 6-4th rate, but if you think you will sail 1st rates in 2-3 months then that means you missed my point. Gold ships, 3-1st rates needs to be very rare and very expensive to the point that its a combined effort of the clan to build one and its a trust worthy player who will be sailing it for the clan needs. For personal stuff it will be easier and safer to sail what you can afford to lose - EVE online moto.

I thought people were upset about not being able to craft how they want?

This kind of realism I don't care for. Even if real life have limitations those shouldn't necessarily be mirrored in a game, doesn't sound like much fun to me. I don't care much for first rates, myself. Some people do, though. And it's the main tool for the PVP that most players seem to be interested in. Your plan is to make them so painfully expensive only clans could make them? What would happen to PVP then? Wouldn't that just freeze and hurt PVP further?

Oh, and EVE, yes. EVE is not a game that attracts action oriented players it seems. They probably have eco and crafting down to the last detail, but they would have to because the fighting is absolute shit and what else but eco can you enjoy then? 

7 hours ago, koltes said:

Diversity - no it doesn't. the new system will pretty much give you what you currently have less quality variants (all player crafted ships will be gold thats it). moving sliders left and right will very quickly teach community an uber balance built and there you have your diversity. The system I propose is material dependent. Materials are vary of region and quality. Live Oak from Baracoa gives Build Strength bonus, Live Oak from Sunbury Strong Hull. You want to build your mast with more hit points and better armor, build it from Live Oak from Baracoa. It will give you amazing mast strength but lower your yard speed. Because its not simply what you select on slides, but rather your effort and mats availability. Plus there will be quality for each wood type and each material built. this will create huge diversity with minimal programming effort. Most of the stuff is already implemented. No need to reprogram half of the game mechanics.

You are absolutely right. Good players would indeed end up having one or two builds for each ship type. Not all players care or visit the forums so there would be some diversity of bad choices out there. I don't see any problem with this. I don't see the point in having many quality tiers within one ship type. What good does that do? Who enjoys fighting in a lesser quality ship?

The different ship types is enough diversity in my view.

7 hours ago, koltes said:

Different quality of ship usefulness - if it takes 2 months to build gold ship you got to sail some how. Also loosing your gold ship is going to be wallet breaking, so lesser priced ships will be more useful due to their lower cost.

That kind of useful just sound utterly terrible to me. Who gets off on that kind of suffering? Ah, yes, EVE players, probably...

I know you imagine players settle for what they can afford. I imagine players giving up when the game is a struggle.

Keep in mind, we've already done this experiment on Naval Action players: Make it real hard to make fantastic ships - things grind to a halt, both crafting and PVP.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Oh, and EVE, yes. EVE is not a game that attracts action oriented players it seems. They probably have eco and crafting down to the last detail, but they would have to because the fighting is absolute shit and what else but eco can you enjoy then? 

In EVE I has some of the best pvp ever so... You know nothing jodgi :D

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Zoky said:

In EVE I has some of the best pvp ever so... You know nothing jodgi :D

I agree with the perma loss from EVE. How does that correlate to NA though ? Players refuse the fight most of the times even with 5 durabilities.... :(

By all means, I am all for ironman gaming experiences whatever genre.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Hethwill said:

I agree with the perma loss from EVE. How does that correlate to NA though ? Players refuse the fight most of the times even with 5 durabilities.... :(

By all means, I am all for ironman gaming experiences whatever genre.

By making gold ships rare and other ships valuable for pvp as expendables / affordable to lose.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, koltes said:

By making gold ships rare and other ships valuable for pvp as expendables / affordable to lose.

While it is a tempting solution we are going through that experience.

Most are simply logging to harvest resources until they can craft a exceptional ship thus leaving the OW sort of empty.

Isn't EVE permaloss of ships ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

While it is a tempting solution we are going through that experience.

Most are simply logging to harvest resources until they can craft a exceptional ship thus leaving the OW sort of empty.

Isn't EVE permaloss of ships ?

Yes, EVE is perma loss.

People logging off because players spoiled of having gold ships only so it gives them 3-5 upgrades. I proposed that all ships will have 3-5 upgrade slots, but green ships only take green upgrades or lower, purple take purple or lower etc. this way they all have same number of upgrades, just vary in bonus strengths.

Also in same way we gather resources now, but instead of one type of fine wood we would get all common (grey) for grey ships and frames, good (green), fine (blue), mastercraft (purple) and finaly exceptional (gold) timber. Right now its just stupid to waste fine for anything not gold so of course there is no need for lower quality ships. But if gold only makes gold and fine timber only makes fine ships then people will craft what they can craft and save for exceptional. also they will start sailing what they can afford to lose. One dura will make less expensive ships valuable option

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ah I get your meaning and it makes sense if we keeping the levels

Actually I'm more looking forward to expanded binary system in the OP - standard build ( basic ) and designed ( exceptional ) in the vein of some naval warfare wargames. with full ship design.

That way I see the compromisse between ship characteristics as opposed to slab cut builds we see all the time.

Still the question remains. Why does EVE pvp with perma loss is pointed out as a good system and NA with extended durabilities isn't ?

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Still the question remains. Why does EVE pvp with perma loss is pointed out as a good system and NA with extended durabilities isn't ?

 

Because there are tons of ships and each is good for its purpose. Variations are going from small Frigs that are cheap to buy and fit to Titans ala 1st rates. Those are so rate that only handful of people are sailing them. It is simply not possible to build one yourself so its many month combined effort of the entire corporation or even alliance. Other capital ships are hard to build, but not impossible. If you make good money then you can buy one. You will fly it with team as 75% of gameplay in EVE is the teamwork.

Loosing small ships is not a biggie and lots of players flying small, even those who have over 50mil skill points (few RL years worth of character developing) are flying them, because they are cheap and still good fun and still good for solo pvp or fleet.

Making ships one dura will stop people sailing there good ships and make them be more careful. They will start making lesser cost ships that are not too costly to lose. In fact this will increase PVP becuase player will know he has better ships and this one he sails was built to lose.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Zoky

It is a matter of taste.

I don't dispute the fact that EVE has great PVP, they do, both small and large scale. I said that EVE's PVP mechanics are shit and that is, like, my opinion, man. I don't like these spectator - clicking at menus - watch a detached representation of a fight kind of mechanics. It comes as no surprise to me that those who like EVE PVP mechanics like that eco and crafting stuff is hard and time consuming.

People simply like different things. I don't wanna take a dump on what you like. I do (over?)react when I fear that people are about to take a dump of boring shit on the glorious Naval Action gameplay.

Y'all can keep your clicking to yourself, whether it's artillery in WoT, carriers in WoWS, EVE or whatever you clickers enjoy.

...

I don't even care about duras anymore, I truly know nothing. Whatever makes people want to fight works for me.

Question: Does EVE have that system of quality and upgrades that if equal ships and equal skill victory is ensured for the guy with the best quality and upgrades ship? Naval Action has that now and that is why we obsess over top ships and have done so since OW opened to santi owners.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, koltes said:

In fact this will increase PVP becuase player will know he has better ships and this one he sails was built to lose.

Please explain or elaborate. I've stared at that sentence for longer than I care to admit and I don't understand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Please explain or elaborate. I've stared at that sentence for longer than I care to admit and I don't understand.

5 Dura today:
You have your gold precious ship with 5 duras. You know that loosing 1 dura is not end of the world, but its upsetting (for some) so you are extra cautious. Because your enemies those hardcore pvpers only sail gold ships you kinda know you have little chance of survival. Especially in the current gang happy mechanics. Sail or not sail? Pvp or not pvp? hmm probably not

1 dura tomorrow with new crafting mechanics (green timber for green ships, gold for gold):
Getting gold ships is hard. It took some effort to get it so you saving it for battles that really matter. For time being you sail what you have available or can afford to lose. Green, blue whatever. Because they all take same number of upgrades (proposed earlier) just lower quality you are not in that huge disadvantage. Here comes pvp. Participate or not participate? Well loosing this ships is not the end of the world, its only green or blue. I still have my precious gold in docks if I need it. The other guy probably got same green or blue too. If he has gold then heck yes I will risk my blue to get his gold off him.

 

There you have it. You can stare at it a bit longer :P

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

lol, no, I get you now.

Why is it so important to you that ships have to be (marginally, but) clearly of different quality tiers. As I understand the changes, fine wood will stay, so there will still be ships with that last little edge in speed or protection. In a system of sidegrades, like proposed, no ship is clearly better than the other (fine woods factor excluded). Or rather, the ship's quality is decided by what the crafter thinks is important, right or wrong and for different situations. Why does this not lead to the diversity you seek?

I think the proposed changes sound great for the "fun factor" in crafting and enabling almost anyone to make a ship that is competitive in PVP - That should have a positive effect on PVP. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@jodgi Hey man that "you know nothing" was a joke (game of thrones ref) :D I completely agree with you that in 2016 EVE fights are not that engaging but once upon a time they were good. And what made permaloss acceptable was that regular ships (frigs, destroyers, cruisers and battlecruisers) were easy to craft for crafters and cheep to buy and fit  for general population. In NA for gold 5rate you need 100/100 fine wood and for 1rate 200/200 while in EVE system it would be 20/20 for 5rate and 2000/2000 for 1rate. That way people would use smaller ships much more and destroying large ships will actually mean something!

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Same thing with modules. In EVE you would use t2 modules ( something like green/blue) 99% of time because they offer best performance/cost. You could fit your ship with officer modules (purple/gold) but you will be doing that only once at most before you realize just how little you gain for tremendous increase in cost. Sometime is worth it but 99% of time it will not get you out of bad situation.

Edited by Zoky
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Why is it so important to you that ships have to be (marginally, but) clearly of different quality tiers.

I think the proposed changes sound great for the "fun factor" in crafting and enabling almost anyone to make a ship that is competitive in PVP - That should have a positive effect on PVP. 

Because proposed system is too linear and simple. It removes ownership from the ship. It makes crafting not interesting and definitely NOT FUN. Its just as you said a time clicker. Soon players will be clicking it though like robots because they know what they want. Done.
If you want the game to appeal to all sort of people it needs to be complex. You must give players the ownership of their creation. This takes research, exploration, lots of testing.


 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Hethwill - Something like maybe what I roughly-outlined back here? A system that would, generally-speaking, let ship crafters have more fine control over certain aspects of shipbuilding that would have both pros and cons to improving? For example, one could make their ship very stiff and strong, but that ship would also be very slow and sluggish compared to a light and flimsy ship that would be much faster and more nimble.

Edited by Kiithnaras
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Kiithnaras said:

@Hethwill - Something like maybe what I roughly-outlined back here? A system that would, generally-speaking, let ship crafters have more fine control over certain aspects of shipbuilding that would have both pros and cons to improving? For example, one could make their ship very stiff and strong, but that ship would also be very slow and sluggish compared to a light and flimsy ship that would be much faster and more nimble.

That's the outline in the OP. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...