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ROE - rules of engagement feedback.

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The Red Duke    6,298

Gettysburg.

 

Buford tagged the advanced elements of the Rebel army. Second circle pulled in the rest of the Federal and Rebel armies from the distance.

 

Buford, similar to a fast brig/frigate, had to hang tough until relieved versus a more powerful force in the tagging circle area.

 

It is working.

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Wesreidau    419

With this new system my Privateer off a French harbor tagged and attacked a French player in a Trade Lynx, pulled in a British AI 3rd rate fleet to windward up the coast, and pulled in French frigates and 4th rate players to lee off to sea. The result was a mad dash of the trade lynx toward the French ships who tacked upwind to try and save him, but saw him swept away by grapeshot just under their gunwales. Then the British 3rd rates, themselves damaged by the shore guns that had focused on them, met with the French frigates and 4th rates, and there was a tremendous battle I wove through raking until I was shot down to eight men and had to close haul to escape.

 

All of this was a snapshot of the open world brought into an instant scenario of nail-biting tension. The old tagging system never saw this sort of elaborate set-up. I had to race to "cut away" the trader before he could reach his friends while his friends charged like the Old Guard at Waterloo to die manfully in defense of their comrade. 

 

You never saw this before. You have to wipe the salt out of your eyes to see it. Its beautiful.

 

Formations sailing on the open world are translated  to scale into the battle instance. Players are in complete control of how they appear in the battle, and their only complaint can really be the lack of warning when people nearby are tagged. The advice to give is simple, sail as if at any moment you will have your open-world position translated into a battle. Keep formation with friends, maneuver to the weather guage, and anticipate combat. Last night a British merchant was jumped just east of Carlisle carrying a cargo of thousands of mahogany frame parts. None of his nearby friends on teamspeak, who scrambled when he announced he was tagged, could get to the site in time. He had assumed friends nearby could jump in to save him, and forgot that friends not actively escorting him couldn't join after the fact. He sailed for the coastal tower and just barely got himself under the cover of those guns when the pirate attacking him was dis-masted and forced to escape the battery. Now his friends jumped the pirate when he fled the battle screen, but through a good point of sail and fast gunnery the pirate very nearly managed to escape once more. Only two ships managed to seriously engage him during the decisive moment, the rest were forced to chase. The tag left them leeward of a fight for the weather gauge between a Surprise and a Belle Poule. And he almost won that race. Just almost.

 

Before he never would have had a chance; every Brit around Carlisle would have joined into the battle and swamped him. Now he was just shy of cutting the trader away before it could reach the guns, a stunt I'd managed the night before.

 

Once you embrace the new system you'll love it.

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Wesreidau    419

New system is the best ROE yet, and eliminates nonsense of late joiners piling in on top of ships "pinned" by super-fast, super-weak chase ships.  However, it might be a bit too rigid for group play.  My suggestion: allow entry after battle is created from edge of the large circle for 1 min.  Position in battle would be relative to point where you joined. This should maintain the "fight what you see" rule.

 

I've got to say no to this. With one minute of open world sailing you could cross the circle and position yourself into a better wind for the fight than you would have had. Imagine the confusion when enemies to the north in the open world join a minute late to the south, blocking the escape you hoped for.

 

I also wouldn't say its too rigid for group play, but groups simply aren't rigid enough for it. The grand horizon-sweeping mobs are over and the new method is to sail precisely as you intend to enter battle, lest a bold captain pick off a straggler into a one-on-one while his comrades struggle against the wind to help. If you're in a group, you now have to sail as a group as well. This might mean half-sail for the fastest so the SOL's can keep up, but we can't call it unrealistic. 

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The Red Duke    6,298

Been having pvp with the same intensity he had with watching the bots.

 

The last statement stands . Embrace it and forget the old roe. Given so many times I had to let go of prey in the old system, the new one is nothing new and true to historical form.

 

True true, there's too many square forts but it is the first iteration of their placement so I take a breather and try to ambush at new venues of approach.

 

And truth be told the new coastlines are absolutely great with a ton of new "lay in wait" inlets.

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akd    2,622

I've got to say no to this. With one minute of open world sailing you could cross the circle and position yourself into a better wind for the fight than you would have had. Imagine the confusion when enemies to the north in the open world join a minute late to the south, blocking the escape you hoped for.

 

I also wouldn't say its too rigid for group play, but groups simply aren't rigid enough for it. The grand horizon-sweeping mobs are over and the new method is to sail precisely as you intend to enter battle, lest a bold captain pick off a straggler into a one-on-one while his comrades struggle against the wind to help. If you're in a group, you now have to sail as a group as well. This might mean half-sail for the fastest so the SOL's can keep up, but we can't call it unrealistic.

Yes, the outer circle is smaller than I thought it was. I would say instead that the battle could be left open for entry from the edge of the outer circle for a time period that would be insufficient to sail to far side of the circle, adjusting size of circle and time and as needed. Even 10 secs. would at least prevent a group sailing loosely together from getting split down the middle just because they are at edge of the pull circle, but entry at the relative position of the outer circle would prevent the abuse seen in previous versions (slow ships, sloppy groups getting warped to position of tagging / defending ship).

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The Red Duke    6,298

I think the idea of closing immediatelly is - what you see is what you get.

 

Hence I agree with extending the second area a bit.

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Wesreidau    419

The trouble with extending the area is that it draws more and more disinterested parties into fights at crowded ports. If I'm not of the tagged nationality I'd rather like the option to decline engaging, or decline joining a tag executed against nearby AI. But on the whole I like how it is. Some trade off will always exist.

 

I would like to see the tag circles of battles about to pull though! If its going to involve me, I need to see it coming, same as the tag target.

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akd    2,622

I think the idea of closing immediatelly is - what you see is what you get.

Hence I agree with extending the second area a bit.

Sure, but unless circle extends to horizon, then we have problem of "what you see you don't get." With current circle and 20 sec. entry time, I'm pretty sure would still only get what you can see, but someone wouldn't see his friends right in front of him get sucked into a battle while he is left twiddling thumbs.

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DeRuyter    724

With this new system my Privateer off a French harbor tagged and attacked a French player in a Trade Lynx, pulled in a British AI 3rd rate fleet to windward up the coast, and pulled in French frigates and 4th rate players to lee off to sea. The result was a mad dash of the trade lynx toward the French ships who tacked upwind to try and save him, but saw him swept away by grapeshot just under their gunwales. Then the British 3rd rates, themselves damaged by the shore guns that had focused on them, met with the French frigates and 4th rates, and there was a tremendous battle I wove through raking until I was shot down to eight men and had to close haul to escape.

 

All of this was a snapshot of the open world brought into an instant scenario of nail-biting tension. The old tagging system never saw this sort of elaborate set-up. I had to race to "cut away" the trader before he could reach his friends while his friends charged like the Old Guard at Waterloo to die manfully in defense of their comrade. 

 

You never saw this before. You have to wipe the salt out of your eyes to see it. Its beautiful.

 

Formations sailing on the open world are translated  to scale into the battle instance. Players are in complete control of how they appear in the battle, and their only complaint can really be the lack of warning when people nearby are tagged. The advice to give is simple, sail as if at any moment you will have your open-world position translated into a battle. Keep formation with friends, maneuver to the weather guage, and anticipate combat. Last night a British merchant was jumped just east of Carlisle carrying a cargo of thousands of mahogany frame parts. None of his nearby friends on teamspeak, who scrambled when he announced he was tagged, could get to the site in time. He had assumed friends nearby could jump in to save him, and forgot that friends not actively escorting him couldn't join after the fact. He sailed for the coastal tower and just barely got himself under the cover of those guns when the pirate attacking him was dis-masted and forced to escape the battery. Now his friends jumped the pirate when he fled the battle screen, but through a good point of sail and fast gunnery the pirate very nearly managed to escape once more. Only two ships managed to seriously engage him during the decisive moment, the rest were forced to chase. The tag left them leeward of a fight for the weather gauge between a Surprise and a Belle Poule. And he almost won that race. Just almost.

 

Before he never would have had a chance; every Brit around Carlisle would have joined into the battle and swamped him. Now he was just shy of cutting the trader away before it could reach the guns, a stunt I'd managed the night before.

 

Once you embrace the new system you'll love it.

 

 

Well at least you guy who like watching bots play are happy. Lmao smfh

 

 

Seems to me he was talking mostly about players and one bot fleet that got pulled in.

 

A very well stated synopsis of the new ROE in my opinion.

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Not having had time to test it very much, I feel that this is a very interesting setup. I'll make sure to do some PvP to test it as soon as I have time.

 

It seems it's almost a slightly more hard-core version of what I myself suggested a while back; but perhaps also a bit too rigid. What I'd suggest, patching on the current system, is to add a third circle where AI won't be dragged and players will be given a choice to join (YES or NO pup-up for ten-fifteen seconds).

 

See for example my suggestion, with an example where one of the players might want to decline a join offer, and where he would, with the current system, be forced in.

 

"Black 4 in this example may want to decline this offer to pursue green 3, but upon doing so will not be able to reinforce the first battle anymore."

 

 

EDIT: Either this or do as akd suggested, only instead of a one minute join window, make it 10-20 seconds (joining on the outer circle); this will also account for the wind direction: people coming from windward will get to the circle faster and thus have a slight advantage.

Edited by Niels Terkildsen

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Alex Connor    866

Like the idea of being able to join on the outer edge of combat circle within the 60s, so long as your direction to the battle (North, South, East, West etc) is based on a snapshot of nearby ship positions taken as the battle starts.

 

Yesterday had to watch a Belle Poule get ganked by 4 Danes when we had my Endymion and a Bellona within sight of the battle as it started, could nothing to help because of the instant battle lock.

 

With just 60 seconds to get into battle there would be no time to sail around an island and join battle, so no danger of ships spawning inside land.

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Mrdoomed    1,531

Been having pvp with the same intensity he had with watching the bots.

The last statement stands . Embrace it and forget the old roe. Given so many times I had to let go of prey in the old system, the new one is nothing new and true to historical form.

True true, there's too many square forts but it is the first iteration of their placement so I take a breather and try to ambush at new venues of approach.

And truth be told the new coastlines are absolutely great with a ton of new "lay in wait" inlets.

There are entirely to many ai fleets. When you pass 100 ships between ports it seems overkill. Sure put a dozen or 2 but seriously 25 or more 3+ rate sols row after row. Throw in a few frigates fine.

The fleets need thier pathing fixed or thier numbers broken up. Plus not many large clans can take down 25 sols.

A little realism would be nice. Oh and i found a easy way to negate forts and towers. They need reworked.

On the bright side this patch could force all players to pvp1 or something.

So far in my experience in both PvP and PvE encounters this is my take.

I feel the primary engagement circle is just about right. The secondary engagement circle is a bit small though. I can do some funky maneuvering to avoid drawing in people if I really wanted.

But I can adapt to the current sizes just fine.

As for the AI ships. The seemingly rare trade ships of any type is a bit odd. There seems to be far more war ships than anything else.

I do like how many traders now have escort ships of around the same rating. This is a good change.

As for MrDoom... I hate to say this but get away ports and you will find the traders out there sailing to and from places where some rarer resources are. I hear Bermuda is a good place to start.

Convince your mates to leave the shore and i will.

Predators follow the prey do they not? Last night i sailed hours and found 1 player despite large numbers, today the same. Not sure where the players are and rare resorces are not easy to locate yet. The trader feature seems to be bugged on my client.

Driving me crazy.

Edit. Unless everyone is in rookie area picking on noobs, which is what i figured would happen.

Edited by Mrdoomed

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Mrdoomed    1,531

Seems to me he was talking mostly about players and one bot fleet that got pulled in.

A very well stated synopsis of the new ROE in my opinion.

Roe should be even bigger. It should pull people outa ports like a vacuum in equal br ships and FORCE them to fight.

Hell make the roe the size of the entire ocean and im great with it. Just remove the 26 ship fleets of 3rd 2nd and 1st rate ships.

Not sure why some folks are having trouble understanding what some of the testers are trying to say. Bring on the fights just remove 25 1st rates from the fighr

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I think ( just my OP) is that this is supposed to be an open world simulator si just as in real life you would want the best odds available to you. So for people to sail in a flotilla is smart and the poor solo captain (such as myself ) must be on constant alert.

If you are looking to avoid "ganks" my advice would be to read your nations chat to see where bad guys are, to sail with other players if possible and if its just you out there then have the fastest ship you can and always keep looking around with the mouse (i seriously never stop rotation of my mouse) to know how far to the nearest escape rout and to be thinking of your escape plan the entire time.

I hunt trade ships alone or with one clan mate and am in enemy waters because that is where the food is. I usually lose a durability about once every 3 weeks ( as many US and British captains can tell you im very slippery )because I follow those rules.

Hope that helps you survive without having to ask for game changes sir.

Edit.. dont forget the Bahamas are now a rookie training ground and ment to let you get your feet wet. (Pun intended )

Thanks for the answer but once again you didn't answer an opinion of my idea. Don't you find it would be an improvement? At the moment any kind of reinforcement is impossible. Is that how you want it to be?

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Mrdoomed    1,531

Thanks for the answer but once again you didn't answer an opinion of my idea. Don't you find it would be an improvement? At the moment any kind of reinforcement is impossible. Is that how you want it to be?

No i dont care for your idea. Its not needed at all. Play smart or even half smart and you don't need your idea.

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DeRuyter    724

Roe should be even bigger. It should pull people outa ports like a vacuum in equal br ships and FORCE them to fight.

Hell make the roe the size of the entire ocean and im great with it. Just remove the 26 ship fleets of 3rd 2nd and 1st rate ships.

Not sure why some folks are having trouble understanding what some of the testers are trying to say. Bring on the fights just remove 25 1st rates from the fighr

 

I agree with you about the AI fleets - just too many large fleets of lineships. Should be more fleets of 5th and 6th rates.

 

Actually I'd like to see a convoy - a fleet of LGV or Indiamen escorted by several 5th rates.

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Neverdead Ned    227

I like the new circle sizes.  I feel that if you can see sails on the horizon, they should be able to see you as well and enter the battle.  The Current big circle size does a good job of simulating this.

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Cecil Selous    337

The mechanic is good.

Today I saw 4 RUBLI Cecilias sailing in front of KPR to Carlisle. They sailed in a column and the the gaps between them were rather large. I had the weather gauge and was a bit bored so I tried to tag the last one and to exclude the two ships at the front. It was more of an experiment because even the two last ships of the column wouldn't have a problem with me alone. Unfortunately it didn't quite work out like I wanted because the first two turned quickly enough and managed to be in the circle, but they were very far away and out of the fight for a long time because they needed to beat to windward to reach me and the other two.

 

Of course I lost and at the end I had all four against me, but due to the transfer of the OW position into the instance, this mechanic can create some interesting battles and possibilities. And I am still in favor of a larger pull circle.

 

The main problem which worsens the experience are the AI fleets. They are many in number and tend to sail together. They consist of too many and often too large ships. Even the fleets of 5th or 6th rates are too large. We need more solo AI.

To exclude them from the pull circle could be an option but then they also would have no purpose on the open sea other than xp and gold farming devices. Lone traders can't use them as protection or cover.

 

Another thing I noticed is, that the AI is often too focused on your ship. I had another battle where I tried to capture a french AI Indy which only sailed with a Cerberus in his fleet. Much to my regret, upwind to them was another french AI fleet consisting of Renos, Cerbs, Brigs and some shooners, but also a british AI fleet of 3rds, Bellonas and a Pavel. So at the start of the battle the distance between our two groups was quite large. But instead of forming two seperate battles in one instance, the other french AI fleet tried to close the gap to me as fast as possible and didn't really care about the british AI right next to them. You could say they tried to run from thefar superior firepower but come on. We know AI warships don't flee. As soon as they reached me it resulted in a huge brawl and ultimately three explosions, which costs me my wanted Indefatigable.

 

If not every enemy AI ship wants to sink the player but fight other AI ships of the players nation if they are present, it would be much easier to catch a trader or a lone ship and leave the battle. Would reduce the frustration of some.

Edited by Cecil Selous

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Rramsha    87

The AI ships is give and take.

Near some ports there are too many AI ships too close together and too large affecting the new ROE and drawing in too many AI.

But on the other hand I sail along less active areas and I will not see a single AI ship anywhere. So there definitely has to be some modifications to the AI ships around the map.

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Mrdoomed    1,531

It is funny but I run into pirates, danes and the dutch quite a bit lately. I have yet to see a French or Spaniard since the patch. But quite a few pirates, by far the most outside of the british players.

I rarely see even a friendly trader out and about. I have seen 1 Dutch Trader Lynx, which I couldn't catch because he was FAR away from me. And 1 Pirate LGV which was empty but still worth the cap.

On a side note, I find it absolutely hilarious that all of these people who cried about 2min being to long before are crying that the instant battle lock is to harsh. Others who were crying wanting longer battle join timers are crying even harder....

Yes the players saying battles should remain open forever are now complaining that the missions being open forever is unfair and the same guys saying 2 minutes was to long now hate instant closes.

Goes to show that those of us calling them out on it were right.

I havent seen a single player outside the newb zone and la Naveese ( spelling ). Where are you seeing players ??

Im not into playing in the newb zone and the players leaving la Naveese are all in fleets of warships trying to conquer the important couple ports on western Hati.

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Mrdoomed    1,531

PVP2, La Navas (how ever it is spelled), I see quite a few 4th rates and above sailing out, but sometimes the rare LGV tries to make a run out to either KPR, or up to Mortimer. It has been pretty even between pirates and brits coming out of the port.

Atwood is the other place I have seen a fair share of people.

La Navas !! Thats it thanks. Yeah i see Lot of fleets leaving for hati but havent seen a transport ship yet but i dont spend hours waiting.

I know atwood does since our entire server is there now in Bahamas. I just dont like the newb zone.

Looks like im correct in that la navas and Bahamas are it. Major sad face lol

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Really dislike players being able to jump in on missions, it's nice (and useful) to PvE missions near home ports, but now there's the risk of being ganked without even being able to see it coming and/or steer clear as they spawn right in on top of you whilst you're already in battle. PvP is to be expected and I can accept being ganked during travel in OW (even if it is annoying that gankers are often left unchecked even right by the capital...), however being jumped mid-way through a PvE mission is awful. Partly because it's completely unexpected, and partly because you're likely to have already taken damage whereas the gankers will be on full health. It's fun and profitable to do PvE, and I don't want to have to do them in 5th rates all the time to minimise losses from being ganked, especially when doing them in home waters which are expected to be safe, and friendly players cannot be particularly relied upon to come and save you.

I guess missions need to be open for 30mins because they affect hostility but maybe having missions taken within your own nation's waters should close immediately.

Edited by WhoopAss_McGue

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