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Tournament feedback - moderated

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Congratulations to winners and all participants AND of course organizers, judges and streamers.

 

This is in fact a second tournament (first one was done when we only had a cutter and hms victory in game). And it helped immensely to improve combat, to eliminate boring things and add more flavor and fun. 

 

In this matter we want all participants to feedback on the tournament combat.

 

Structure

  1. Please state the name and the team
  2. Feedback structure is free but please try to answer the following questions. 
  • what was boring and what was fun
  • what would you change and how
  • what would you keep and why? 
  • what was working (patterns of combat you expected to work)
  • and what was not (like you expected one tactic to work and it did not). 

 

If you were not a participant but a viewer you can also provide feedback - but in this case you will have to point to the specific matches when giving examples and dont forget to provide the player name.

 

all off topic will be removed

 

Thank you 

 

previous feedback topic is here - but we wanted to start a new one after the tournament focused on the combat only.

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/16270-1st-pvp-tournament-feedback-thread-heavily-moderated/

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Tommy Shelby - OCEAN T.1

 

Carronades feel too strong.

Long/Mediums don't feel strong enough. 

What was working: Demasting with Carronades, very dominant tactic if the player has good aim. 

 

What was not: Long Cannon kiting. Because with the current penetration values of Longs you can't demast nor Dmg the enemy hull with Longs. Carronades can penetrate enemy hull at more extreme angles and from further away than Longs. So longs have only 1 advantage: Chaining the enemy sails. 

 

But, i know you guys are planning on balancing this so i won't go into too much detail here. :)

 

Edit: Wanted to add the following: 

 

Crew and Reload shock wasn't used in the tournament at all. Perhaps make it slightly easier to get Reload/Crew Shock and make it 60 second in shock instead of 30?.

Rigging Shock happened alot due to demasting but it seems to me that 30 seconds is too short a duration for the "shock". 

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Kloothommel - RDNN team 1 (4th place)

 

Fun/working:

Matching your skills vs other teams with equal ships/chances.

Tactical play.

Cerbs are awesome.

 

Boring/not working:

Setups mostly the same (trinc/cerb. essex/cerb)

Carronades everywhere. Sugestion: Make carronades less usefull/drop off at ranges above 100m (increased dispersion/less damage and penetration after 100m)

Pump inventor is op.

 

Only initial post, will add when I think of anything else.

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Anolytic - RDNN T1 (reserve)

 

What was boring:

The tournament took way too long to complete and it became less interesting to both participants and viewers before we were half way. It also made it more difficult to plan matches when the tournament covered such a time-span.

 

What was fun:

Learning and experimenting with the mechanics to figure out the best setups and tactics. The team spirit and cooperation and good spirit between opponents.

 

What to change:

Demasting is somewhat too powerful with carronades and longs/mediums are not competitive enough. Maybe carronades should have much less accuracy and more spread at long ranges.

Survival setups are too powerful.

Graping should be/is useful and strong enough in its own right not to make it a prerequisite for sinking some ships. 

Graping mechanics need some polish. It seems arbitrary when graping is effective. Sometimes you can get max graping damage from a ship's strong side without it heeling towards you or anyting else. Graping is an extremely effective tactic to reduce enemy dps without having to sink an enemy ship, but it is an unreliable tactic currently, unlike sails.

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Dekillos - LG

 

  1. Самое унылое и вымытывающие - ожидание боев и постоянные отмены, переносы. Думаю, что бои нужны назначать на выходные и проводить один за другим, как в Alliance Tournament в EvE.
  2. Можно увеличить суммарный БР команды и увеличить максимальное кол-во человек в команде, например, макс БР 700-800 и в него можно впихнуть либо 3 человека на 4-5 ранг кораблях либо пять человек на 5ых рангах. Это даст большую вариативность сетапов и больше возможных интересных ситуаций.
  3. БР Триньки явно должен быть выше, т.к. железобетонные мачты дают полную безнаказанность на расстояних более 250м, относительно остальных фрегатов.
  4. По поводу тактик и боевки в целом. Как я уже писал, медиумы и лонги на фрегат сайзе не работают совсем, только как саппорт по срезанию паруса. Надо резать пробитие или дамаг с расстоянием у карронад и бустить это у лонгов и медов. Меды при таких карронадах вообще не нужны. В начале турнира мы думали, что Лонги хоть как-то могут отыграть, но после тестов поняли, что карронады это единственный вариант. Даже даблы и чарджи ничего не решают из-за времени перезарядки.
  5. Демачтинг является основной тактикой, особенно для тринек, ввиду, их преимуществ, но я бы не сказал, что эта тактика была 100% выигрышной на остальных фрегатах. Я бы добавил скилу "Urgent Repair", или как его там, небольшую починку мачт, типа, залепили синей изолентой по быстрому.
  6. Дефендер убивает абордажные тактики, если я возьму абордажный Бельпуль против Тринкомали, то скорее всего просто убьюсь об дефендера, т.к. картечь в целый борт работает мистически рандомно. Т.е. тактика абордажа целиком и полностью зависит от противника, а не от своих рук.
  7. По поводу судейства, судьи должны иметь возможность влиять на ход боя, чтобы избежать некоторых ситуаций, например, команда бросает все силы и убивает один корабль, затем просто уходит в закат до конца боя и выигрывает по очкам, при этом имея почти небоеспособные корабли.

 

В целом, турнир понравился, организаторы молодцы.

Edited by Dekillos

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Anolytic - RDNN T1 (reserve)

 

I want to add a few more things that we discovered during the matches or during testing in preparations for the matches:

 

People have previously told me about disabling/untoggling sailing and gunnery at the beginning of every match and it somehow improving survival. I kind of looked at it like some sort of superstition. As long as you have survival toggled, crew go in there as fast as they can when needed. Having sailing and gunnery disabled seems like it shouldn't change anything. If both are detoggled, they should both still have exactly the same amount of crew as if both were toggled on.

However, after several tournament battles, small battle challenge events and tests in the duel room, my conclusion is that it makes a difference. With Sailing and gunnery toggled on a trinc with X crew in gunnery, Y crew in sailing and 35/35 crew in survival and one side down could be slowly taking water and sinking. Toggle sailing and gunnery off and the ship will still have X crew in gunnery and Y crew in sailing, as well as 35/35 crew in survival (or by now maybe having taken on some water, 47/47 in survival) and now the ship will start to slowly pump the water out and the ship can now survive for 30 minutes without armour on one side. This almost imperceptible difference seems weird to have such an impact on survivability.

 

We also had some discussion in our team after the Semi-finals about whether Copper plating disables or somehow disrupts survival setups. Apart from failure to execute tactics and generally being outplayed in that match, the upgrade from 2/5 trincs to perfect 3/5 trincs to have room to fit Copper plating on, proved disastrous even when every other aspect of both ships, including trim, was exactly the same. Speed increasing the influx of water would be a natural thing, but when testing we haven't been able to determine that it is the speed and not the actual presence of copper plating that causes survival setups to work poorly. It seems like even when sailing at reduced speed, a trinc with copper plating will sink faster than one without it. It would be my guess that when Lord Vicious sank early in every one of SORRY's group matches he had a perfect trinc with copper plating on it.

 

Btw: On behalf of the RDNN Team 1 I would request a pop-up reminder for if you try to enter the tournament room without repair kits on...jk

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Augustus Charles Hobart-Hampden - BRITS (Reserve)

 

  • what was boring and what was fun
  • - Small battles are loads of fun but the comp was very same same,  we only ever saw 2 bell's and a surprise or two trinc/essex and a cerb, also the tournament took a long time to complete but im not sure how to fix that will all the real lives and time zones involved  
  •  
  • what would you change and how
  • - more reserve players, we had one player go on a business trip and another get married, i was originally a reserve member of the team but played in all 4 matches
  • what was working
  • - Cannonade builds are hugely powerful in small brawls like this, and full survival build has a big impact in small actions,  When a ship takes several min to sink and is still kicking out DPS the whole time it has a big impact.
  •  
  • and what was not (like you expected one tactic to work and it did not)
  • - I thought i would see more kiting but i only saw longs in play in one standard game, and they were on our team.  I ran longs in our last match but it was a 1v2 vs RDNN (both teams had people who could not make it)

 

 

I really like small actions like this so on the whole the tourney was lots of fun.  I feel like cannonades were an obvious choice for almost all ships though.  Longs lose the ability to pen pretty quick as distance goes up, and as a result an expected mid rage where longs were working and cannonades were not never materializes.  Demasting is also very powerful and cannonades are very good at it. It was however loads of fun learning to love the cerb again, as i have not used one in many months.  I really hope we see more team comps in the next tournament rather then the 2 i saw in this one.  I would also love to see tournaments for rate ships and shallow ships, and potentially larger fights, maybe 5 or 6  side.  The number one thing I would want to see changed next time is more reserve players.  I know were were not the only team that had issues with that and i think having at least as many reserves as mains in the player pool would be a good start. 

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Kierrip de badas : EdR1

 

  • what was boring and what was fun

Boring: a BR limit allow multile choice of ships. The tournament feel more wich make the best choice rather the ability to be good
Same for carronade or canons, as soon as the batlte was started you know if you were going to win or loose the battle

Making the team choice in august when noone were present to start it mid september when others were present was bad. It was hard to have the same team as some player stop to play and some start. Next time make it shorty in time and don't force us to have organisation present. It's limiting people to play and make the battles.
Love: The tournament was nothing important to us and really borring. We would like to be in to have a look and we got a look. It was woring before it starts to wait a so long time, it was boring during the figts as they were lost as soon as they start and after that, i get back my freedom.

  • what would you change and how

I would like to change the choice into the ship. For the tournament special ships with readmable should be given to players to make them having the sames ships allowing people to test their level and not their fits or choice of gun/ships

  • what would you keep and why? 

3v3 is nice, not so hard to have ingame, not too low.

  • what was working (patterns of combat you expected to work)

I learn into the tournament than 2 trinco and a cerberus can dismat an another trinco in two broadside. So it was working to learn new tactics you didn't know. Since the tournamenet Trinco is become my new favorite os ship.

  • and what was not (like you expected one tactic to work and it did not).

One more time the choice of ship/gun make the game. If your ennemy were in carronade + fster ship than you you were fucked as soon as the battle start as the difference between carronade and gun is moreimportant than the difference between teak and fir. So our idea to kite ships in teak was impossible due of some to be in fir with carronade. It was really frustrating as we saw that 1 minute after the battle start, we shouldhave surrender on this time... Maybe after more battle people shoul have know the tactics of the opponents but we were going into this tournament to see how it works or not and we were really disapointed to see 90% of the fight was lead by choice of ship/carro.

After few battel everyone was in same composition in ships /gun what make the battle more interesting but it shoudl have been better to start with that and not finishing with that

 

Ty anyway to the organisation as it seems they spend a lot of time on that.

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Tiedemann RDNN T2

 

Boring

Trying to arrange battles was sometimes difficult and fighting with teams from a completely different time zone was a pain. The tournament ended up lasting for 2 months (?), that's a bit to long.

 

Fun
The the battles them self was a lot of fun. The streams was good and made it exciting to follow the tournament's progress. So thanks to the streamers and organizers for making this possible and for letting us join. 

 

Changes

All teams should have a backup player for all team "slots". So we should have been 6 players on each team. Just to ease and speed up the arranging. It should be a demand for before entering a tournament.

 

Good stuff

Battle time was at the beginning 1 hour, and it saves time, makes it more fun to watch and gives us better fights.

1 week to do a battle should have been implemented from the beginning.   

The 500 BR rating limit was what made this so fun. We had to use ships we don't normally use, and frigates type ships are a lot of fun!  

 

Strategy stuff (this is Shaftoes area of expertise) 

We expected caronades to beat longs, and it did. 

We where planning to focus fire on one enemy at a time, but focus fireing with a slow turning ship fitted with caronades is not easy.

We also feared loosing Trinc's because of leaks (just leaks alone), but that turned out not to be a issue.

 

All of the above is imho. 

Edited by Tiedemann

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  1. Please state the name and the team

Jeheil, KIN

  • what was boring and what was fun

 

I thought the whole tournament was very well run, I didn't see anything 'boring' in the battles themselves. Organising a time to play was really pesky so I would prefer a 'tool', be it web, spreadsheet, etc that allows teams (all members to see) and manage 'appointments' for the battle...along with the judge/streamer.

  • what would you change and how

Copy the world cup and have Timezone based qualifiers, be it 4 timezones or 3 to cover primarily Europe/US/Oceanic. Places don't have to be even across those three it could be a 4:2.2, or 4.3.1 spread for example based on entries.

 

  • what would you keep and why? 

I loved the 2 man commentatires, I would like a dedicated 'channel' to watch these through, twitch or youtube. It would be great if the spectator/commentator could watch without entering the game and be able to use freecam and hotseat type viewing, so for example we see the wind etc.

  • what was working (patterns of combat you expected to work)

The never sinking ships was interesting to see, but I suspect recent tweaks have made this less so, demasting meta is sort of interesting...and reasonably realistic. Perhaps also look at 'weight' divisions, so a 500br, 1000br, 3000br sort of thing.

 

  • and what was not (like you expected one tactic to work and it did not). 

 

There was alot less boarding than I expected...but thats not such a bad thing :)

 

Huge o7 to the organisers, judges, streamers and players.

Edited by Jeheil

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It was a great event, a big thank  to you and other organizers. However, we think that should be formulated and be in the general availability  the rules of combat, and the main thing in any situation, what solution can be taken by a judge. This is to ensure that would be in the case of a controversial decision by the judge, it was possible to appeal against it based on the specific point of the rules. Because, for example, in this tournament, we had a 3 fights and all 3 different rules, and in fact two of these battles because of the change of the rules, changed the result of the battle, it seems to us that it is a bit strange =)

Sincerely team RUS.

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Kair Alzahir - Judge/Organizer

 

Before going in the “real” tournament feedback, one small thing regarding carronades, pumps etc… In my opinion, all these are balancing issues, not tournament issues. They should not be considered regarding the tournament. Changing ships and mechanics for the tournament and disregarding the game and open world, will only bring bad things.

 

But regarding the carronade « problem », I’ll give a quick opinion in “spoiler” tag to avoid flooding the thread (This is a copy-past of what I wrote in the 9.96 Patch note thread).

To me, even though carronades may have been a bit overpowered (or longs a bit underpowered?) they were no way as overpowered as people tend to think/say.

The carronades were indeed favoured in the tournament, but this is the consequence of the tournament mechanics itself. The fact that you are supposed to fight it out, and can’t win by just “going away” just makes the entire “meta-game” favour more firepower/resilience. Long guns would not penetrate the hulls in the tournament? Of course, almost all ships were full liveoak with extra planking – stiffness etc. They were resilient beasts made to force everyone up against them to get closer. But if you transfer theses ships in open world battle, well they better be well escorted and never have to flee the combat because they will not get far.

In OW at the moment, things are kind of balanced regarding carronade/longs. If you have longs, and say get up against a same ship with carronades, you would be mad to get up close with it, especially if he is built around resilience! Maybe you won’t penetrate him, but he’ll never catch you anyway… He has the firepower sure, but you have the initiative of doing whatever you want. And in open world, initiative is worth A LOT.

You will never destroy something you can’t catch, and people at some point will group up and outnumber you. If you give longs the firepower and penetration to compete, in a “head to head” confrontation, against carronades, you completely destroy the carronades usefulness.

 

I’m not sure aiming at getting all guns balanced by saying “in a precise situation, they should all have equal chances of sinking the other ship” is neither good, neither possible. At the moment, both guns have their advantages in specific situations, and this is a good thing. You will have to sacrifice a lot, to get a lot. Also I’m sure not seeing that much full carronade ships in open world small groups which tends to indicate (imho) that they are not that overpowered.

 

 

Ship composition diversity :

Was 500 BR the perfect BR? Hard to say. However, I do think that whatever BR limit you give, 2 or 3 main ship compositions will rise above all others, and thus will be mainly used and seen in any tournament. The explanation is simple: It’s a completion, and people will go towards what they think or see as “maximum effectiveness”. You can have perfect example of that in many other games (and even in real life sports). For example, for those of you who know the game “Overwatch” (Please edit this if giving another game name is not permitted by the forum rules) A lot of people are complaining about the fact all the team compositions in Ranked matches are almost the same regarding roles (2x Tank + 2x Sup + 2x dps) and heroes themselves (only half of the heroes are being played).

This could also be “linked”, in a way, to what I said about carronades and longs. You can’t get everything to work out in every situation. Le Gros Ventre is not a ship you would take in the tournament right? Does that make it a bad ship or a bad tournament?

 

Now it comes to what kind of tournament we would like to see? We did learn that with 500 BR it will be a “heavy frigate” tournament. If we want a “medium frigate tournament” we should get the BR down a bit, so people can’t take 2 Essex/trinco. On the contrary, if we want a “SOL tournament” we need to get this BR up seriously.

 

 

Times and availability :

This is a tricky one. I did find the tournament to be :

  1. Too long.
  2. Too time consuming (for me at least).

Different possibilities are available to counter that, unfortunately they almost all have heavy drawbacks.

Fixing definite hours in which matches should be played could make it a more regular event, but will impose people to be there at specific hours they can’t change. Also, that could create time zone problems that would prevent some participants from even joining the event.

 

Another solution would be to give people a "bracket". Something like : “You have 2 weeks to do your 3 group matches, just send us the screenshot of the start/end of the battle” will give people the responsibility of doing their matches without having to run after them.

But what if one of the team doesn’t show up or just if both teams cant get a date a wich they can fight ? Do you kick both teams out? That could be open to exploits.

 

Also, s lot of teams asked us for that during the tournament, and I think it would indeed be a good idea to get more reserved players per team (Say 3+3 as some suggested ?). That may help a bit in getting teams to find availability fight each other

 

 

Entertainment :

I think that one of the good things about the tournament was the "entertainement" it created for some people. At the start of the tournament, in group stage, matches were played several time a week, sometimes 4 or 5 times. I remember friends asking me things like:  "So ? Are you watching tonights match with us ?". Of cours, we where not that many at the end, but I fealt like people liked the fact it was streamed, and as Jeheil said, the "2 man commentatires" was great !

Of cours, getting every match streamed in futur tournament may not be possible if it needs to go faster, but maybe having special slots for streamers/judges that would able them to get in without ships, (just the free camera) could help opening this to "anyone", without getting the risk of someone greifing ?

 

 

General ideas

The idea of creating a smaller tournament like you (the Devs) suggested (1 each week or so) could be a good solution. I would suggest to go even further and make theses sort of qualification rounds. That way, several times a year (I don’t know, something like 3 times a year?), you stall the tournament for a week and make the best teams of these small rounds to compete for the first place. You would get a mixt of small/big tournament, having the best part of both:

Small events each week to keep people in the action, with small term commitment rewards. Small commitment for everyone. Streaming is not mandatory, people just need to do their matches.

One “big and colourful” event now and then for people that really want to go for “the big thing”. You get a few volunteers to stream all these matches so this gets a bit of focus from the community (I think some people enjoyed watching the matches like a sports competition or so. I know I did.).

 

Also, as seen above, one of the problems of any of these tournaments will be “mirror compositions”, or everyone taking mostly the same ships / fits. That’s not a huge problem in itself, but can get things a bit boring sometimes.

Going for small weekly tournament could make people try more new compositions cause they are not risking everything on a single match.

But if you want to avoid some ships that are most picked then others, the only option you have is to force people into specific ships you give them.  Forcing everyone in an Oak ship for example, and exit the “I can’t penetrate” problem for longs: Longs and Carronades can penetrate and so be viable in the tournament (And you don’t have to hard nerf the carronades for open world).

But then again, as I said, I don’t really see the issues in having compositions that are close to each other.

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