"Fire as she bears", or firing in succession

[James Cornelius]

Hello all,

 

My sincere apologies if this has already been discussed but I was not able to locate it.

 

I suggest that another form of cannon fire pattern should exist, based upon the command "fire as she bears". I will not explain the mechanics of the actual command, purpose, and procedure, as I am sure we are all familiar.

 

Obviously, within the confines of the game it is not practical to have an "automatic" fire that fires each cannon as it passes a target. However, given that there is already a rolling front, rolling rear, and random fire pattern I think there should be one more: a succession fire from front (though I suppose one from stern could also be utilized) that simulates firing as the ship bears.

 

Thus, for example, raking would be far more effective if the cannons fired in the correct order as you pass a stern, or you would be able to fire into a ship as you pass it along one side.

 

Thank you.

[jodgi]

What would the difference between what we have (rolling front) and your suggestion be?

[Anolytic]

Same as Intrepido. It would be too OP compared to the other commands.

[Bulwyf]

This was exactly how a rake was done, its stupid that its not in the game. The skill involved was in getting the ship into that position and its almost impossible under the present system to duplicate the rakes that were done in real life where each gun captain fired as they passed the target. Arguments about it being overpowered are just gamish BS, this was how it was done and is how it should be done in game.

[CaptVonGunn]

I would rather have fire all at once that would make the rakes effective to plus be useful at other times to

[James Cornelius]

This was exactly how a rake was done, its stupid that its not in the game. The skill involved was in getting the ship into that position and its almost impossible under the present system to duplicate the rakes that were done in real life where each gun captain fired as they passed the target. Arguments about it being overpowered are just gamish BS, this was how it was done and is how it should be done in game.

 

I tend to agree with this and disagree with any argument that it would be overpowered. To suggest so is to say that raking is overpowered, which is precisely the point. Raking should be devastating. And if a captain is skilled enough to get behind his opponent, when both are aware of the danger, he or she is rewarded for it. It's dangerous in game, but that's not even really my point.

 

My point is to give us more control over our ships and their behavior in a completely historical and realistic way. One of the greatest things about this game is its attention to historical detail and realism. I think this is a valuable tool to add to that area.

[James Cornelius]

Same as Intrepido. It would be too OP compared to the other commands.

 

This is the second time you have argued against a well founded and historically based suggestion I have made with little against it but your own opinion. I shall try not to take offense, sir.

[Hohh20]

Using an automatic system could require a lot of unnecessary coding. Instead of it auto firing, when the command is selected it will section off the cannons in a 2 wide x number of decks formation and they will all fire at once. Then it will proceed back along the ship with the captain manually firing as they line up with the enemy ship. This will also require at least a bit more skill and focus rather than just being a fire and forget system.

Example of the sections:

If a ship has 3 decks of 10 cannons each per side, 2 columns down all 3 decks would be sectioned off to fire 6 cannons at once. There would then be 5 sections total.

1   2   3   4   5

oo|oo|oo|oo|oo

oo|oo|oo|oo|oo

oo|oo|oo|oo|oo

[SteelSandwich]

I understand where you coming from when suggesting this addition, yet in my eyes it would take away the main factor that makes the combat great in the game: player skill (or lack off).

It would be good to realise what this would do, since its not related to just raking. Shooting someones masts will therefore also be automated, since the principle of turning and succesive firing will be applied there as well.

I would even as far as: in which situation would it not be the most effective firemode? Even automated broadsides and the best possible angles will be part of this mechanic And herein lies the rub.

Maybe a brief anekdote is suited: i once was caught in my bellona by 4 enemy constitutions. In the battle itself they succesfully took my stern out, which lead to them loading grape. Mind you, this was before the grape/damage rework! Once the grape was loaded they started to shoot my full health broadside with grape, which offcourse did nothing.

In chat they expressed that they didnt understand why it wasnt working. Someone had explained to them that first; you take the stern armor, second; you shoot grape at your target. They failed to understand that grape was meant to be shot at the weakened stern. They paid a deer prize for that mistake.

What im trying to bring acros is that different skill level plays a gigantic role, regardless if its knowledge or a steady aim.

The tools are currently available for doing painfull rakes, try and find tomms123 ingame and he will demonstrate.

[Fargo]

Auto fire seems stupid, but it would be helpful if you could change the broadside speed. Its always unloading in 5 seconds and for larger ships its just not possible to reach this speed (~20kn) to get a close rake in.

[PL_Harpoon]

Yes, if you want realism automated fire would be a good idea, but it would have to be implemented among other things like roll having effect on the trajectory or realistic elevation changes, matchlock misfires, guns getting hotter etc.

 

But that would make the game extremely frustrating for some players.

[Niels Terkildsen]

What the OP is suggesting seems, like jodgi pointed out, no different than the rolling broadsides we already have.

 

If what he meant was an automatically aimed rolling fire, that would be ridiculous.

 

What I would rather see, then, is a lowering of the cool down (or complete removal of it) when using aimed shots - that would mean you could come in at any speed and adjust your timing (pushing of the space bar) accordingly, instead of having to adjust your speed and turn rate to the never-changing rolling broadside timing.

 

However, that's a bit more complicated when using ships with several gun decks since aiming shots take one deck at a time (unless you're very fast on your keys, and can switch between the gun decks with F1, F2, etc. while simultaneously aiming and timing your shots). At least it would help to improve the timing of guns, crucial when raking, for smaller ships, while bigger ones would either have to rely on the regular rolling broadsides or be content with using only one deck's guns in the raking.

[Tomms123]

This is the second time you have argued against a well founded and historically based suggestion I have made with little against it but your own opinion. I shall try not to take offense, sir.

 

Just because its historical based doesnt make it a good game mechanic.

 

 

Auto fire seems stupid, but it would be helpful if you could change the broadside speed. Its always unloading in 5 seconds and for larger ships its just not possible to reach this speed (~20kn) to get a close rake in.

 

I and many more makes stern rakes with SoL against other SoL and smaller ships also. How is this not possible? The key is to fire a bit later and just keep practicing until you get a feel when you should unload your side.

 

 

This was exactly how a rake was done, its stupid that its not in the game. The skill involved was in getting the ship into that position and its almost impossible under the present system to duplicate the rakes that were done in real life where each gun captain fired as they passed the target. Arguments about it being overpowered are just gamish BS, this was how it was done and is how it should be done in game.

 

A few things, just because it were done like this doesnt make it a good game mechanic, what this is giving is an automated system which guarantee that you will to 98% (yes I took the number out from the air, deal with it) hit the target, this can be done today also but its not due to a system which does it for you but the player which make it happen.

 

Should we also slow down the combat speed so the combat drags on for several hours to get in a good position, then several hours more to actually be able with some success to yield damage upon your enemy so we can actually reflect this skill and luck (yes luck) these captain which managed to make a good rake on the enemy ship. As we have it now getting into a position to succesfully rake someone is easy (depending on the enemy captain and your skill) due to the combat speed is not taking that long as it used to maneuver your ship into position to actually be able to unleash hell on the enemy and even not close to the task to fool the enemy captain to let you get on their stern and show them what hell truly looks like.

 

So if you want "this is how it were done and is how it should be done in game" then please explain naval warfare to that extent it should be able to fully replicate a naval battle.

 

Also lets not forgett that this suggestion would also take time to implement as code change is required and extensive tesing is needed.

[Cecil Selous]

I don't think this suggestion is ridiculous. How can you say that? It would bemore realistic than what we have now. Does it make raking and demasting easier? Yes it does but another factor that makes this easier is our current aiming system. We can aim our cannons horizontally and vertically like hey are mounted on a turret. Within seconds we can change elevation and the horizontal alignment. We can snipe masts, the waterline and gun ports.

I would rather see a mechanic where you have to set the aiming arc and elevation beforehand (slow down the change of both drastically) and then aim with you whole ship. Maybe even different for every deck. You have to look for waves and ship movement. Then you can introdcue a "fire as she bears" option. 

 

With the current aiming system it would be easy to do a devastating rake. If that is a good or bad thing is up to discussion.

 

EDIT: With the locked sector option and the right speed you almost have a fire as she bears. So I don't think we really need this proposed feature.

Edited October 2, 2016 by Cecil Selous

[Lockheed]

Example of the sections:

If a ship has 3 decks of 10 cannons each per side, 2 columns down all 3 decks would be sectioned off to fire 6 cannons at once. There would then be 5 sections total.

1   2   3   4   5

oo|oo|oo|oo|oo

oo|oo|oo|oo|oo

oo|oo|oo|oo|oo

I like this. I like this a lot... The autofire would be way too OP I agree. But based on this ^^ a custom rolling front and back fire mode would do it. The player chose which one (front or back) he wants to use, but he has to aim manually, and shoot the sections manually, by the left mouse button as usual. But instead of releasing the entire broadside battery, the sections would fire one by one in order of the selected fire mode. Player skill still needed and it would allow the timing of your shots, thus more control over your guns. 

Edited October 2, 2016 by Lockheed

[PL_Harpoon]

I don't think this suggestion is ridiculous. How can you say that? It would bemore realistic than what we have now. Does it make raking and demasting easier? Yes it does but another factor that makes this easier is our current aiming system. We can aim our cannons horizontally and vertically like hey are mounted on a turret. Within seconds we can change elevation and the horizontal alignment. We can snipe masts, the waterline and gun ports.

I would rather see a mechanic where you have to set the aiming arc and elevation beforehand (slow down the change of both drastically) and then aim with you whole ship. Maybe even different for every deck. You have to look for waves and ship movement. Then you can introdcue a "fire as she bears" option. 

 

With the current aiming system it would be easy to do a devastating rake. If that is a good or bad thing is up to discussion.

 

EDIT: With the locked sector option and the right speed you almost have a fire as she bears. So I don't think we really need this proposed feature.

Pretty much what I said a couple of posts earlier.

With few exceptions. I'd add the option to leave the gun elevation for gun-captains. It could even be linked to your officer's exp. But while for some of us this would be a great feature, others would flow the forums with topics like "my guns don't hit, game broken".

[Sea Archer]

The whole game is about shooting manually and bringing your ship in the right position with manual steering. That's what is needing skill.

Therefore it would destroy the fun to have one of those things automated.

As a captain of old days, you would only give the order which shot to load, which course to steer(without touching the wheel yourself), what to shoot at and which sails to set.

This might be a bit boring in a game. If stern rakes are somehow how difficult to do, it is exactly what it should be. I had battles where I gave a few perfect rakes and some where it wasn't possible to do a single one. All depends on the right angle and speed.

If you are really slow you can do it with single shot, at higher speed you have to guess the right moment. Sometimes it works as intended sometimes not. That is life.

I wouldn't change anything. The current mechanic works pretty well.

[akd]

People can and do deliver devastating rakes in game. It is not random or accidental. Therefore the entire premise of this suggestion is incorrect, as there is zero need. As for a realism imperative, rakes presented problems of coordination and timing for gun crews in real life that often led to ineffective fire. The coordination and timing problem is simply transferred to the player in game.

[Fargo]

I and many more makes stern rakes with SoL against other SoL and smaller ships also. How is this not possible? The key is to fire a bit later and just keep practicing until you get a feel when you should unload your side.

 

I said "close", and i mean really close. Its technically impossible to get all hits in, no matter of your skill (unless the enemy turns in your favour). You can land a good amount of hits, but not straight and only if your ship goes fast enough.

[Hethwill]

5 seconds to unleash the rolling broadside no matter the amount of guns.

 

Adjust your speed accordingly.

 

We use a total abstract system that perfectly simulates the imperfection of orders being passed along a man'o'war where practice makes perfect.

[Cecil Selous]

The coordination and timing problem is simply transferred to the player in game.

 

True. Though in some ships I have the feeling sometimes that it is not totally in my hands. For example the Rattlesnake. There is an odd artificial pause between the 3rd or 4th cannon and the rest, which can really fuck up your raking attempt. 

 

The idea behind fire as she bears for the game is that every gun crew tries to fire when they reach the point of the first shot. If you don't want to make it too op you need to implement some variations in it. Maybe even simulate the effect off the smoke on visibility and thus accuracy. Like others said, too complex and too much effort to code it for a feature we almost already have. 

Faster manually shooting via spacebar would be better too achieve this. 

Maybe a variation like shift + space, because with space you just fire the cannons of one deck from front to back and not all decks.

[Tomms123]

I said "close", and i mean really close. Its technically impossible to get all hits in, no matter of your skill (unless the enemy turns in your favour). You can land a good amount of hits, but not straight and only if your ship goes fast enough.

Odd that I then have been possible to do that and still does, both by snugging the enemy ship so you wouldnt fit a human being standing straight up between the ships and from further away.

[James Cornelius]

Gentlemen,

 

I think my suggestion has been completely misunderstood.

 

I am not asking for, nor suggesting, automatic firing in any way. I agree with those who have intimated it is excessive automation and removes some of the skill involved in good gunnery.

 

But, unless something has changed and I did not notice it, rolling fire is NOT successive fire.

 

Consider a broadside of eight guns where your forward gun is #1 and your aft gun is #8, with sequential numbering accordingly. ROLLING FRONT means that your guns would fire in this order: 1, 8, 2, 7, 3, 6, 4, 5. ROLLING REAR is the opposite: 8, 1, 7, 2, etc.

 

FIRE IN SUCCESSION means your guns would fire 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. This is what I am suggesting be included, if it is not already. 

 

EDIT: Gentlemen, I have been mistaken. Rolling fire does function as I suggested for "fire in succession". I have left my above post unchanged so you are clear what it was I was asking, but as it exists I clearly have egg on my face. My apologies for wasting your time.

Edited October 2, 2016 by James Cornelius

[Niels Terkildsen]

You are mistaken. Rolling broadside is the same as what you're looking for.

[Æthlstan]

I made a post with this same exact title and got shit on as well

 

The thing is, gun captains wouldnt fire after a firing command if they could plainly see there was no target in front of them. They would hold their fire until the target presented, or they would wait for the next firing command.

 

A ship was manned by more than just the captain and currently this isnt visibly reflected in anything that we can do in the game