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Rules of engagement feedback

  

238 members have voted

  1. 1. Coward perk - allowing

    • Should stay
      58
    • Should be removed
      67
    • Should receive a morale penalty or other penalty
      113
  2. 2. Control perk - allowing distance based exit timer

    • should stay
      98
    • should be removed
      63
    • should replace current hit based exit timer
      77
  3. 3. Safe battle result screen (allowing staying in the results forever)

    • Ship should only be safe in port - battle result screen should drop the player to OW in 5 mins
      113
    • Should stay as it is allowing life to go on
      59
    • Should send you to the nearest port if you stay there for longer than X mins
      66
  4. 4. Invisibility on exit

    • Invisibility should be brought back to allow repositioning after the battle
      127
    • No invisibility
      111


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Just imagine the usual case of a ship sailing at his own and being intercepted by a large force. No chances of friendly support and now if an AI fleet of his nation is close it wont participate in the battle.

Sorry but I dont see it.

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ai could be ignored in pulling (or) we can switch back them joining the battle from time to time.

AI could be ignored or joined depending of the battle rating for each side in the "large circle", serving as a small "balance" boost if needed.

You could also allow an entry timer of 2 - 5 minutes, like now, but to enter ship should be at the exterior limit of the circle, farest possible from the center. Like adding a third circle, close to the large one, inside the "battle tag", and the zone to join a battle could be between those two circles, and so joining player will spawn far away.

Edited by Sire Trinkof

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ai could be ignored in pulling (or) we can switch back them joining the battle from time to time.

That depends on what you see the purpose of OW AI is. Easy PvE content? A representation of national defensive assets in a region?

Personally, I'd love for OW AI to be ignored in a tagging. To many people hug them to avoid a fight. But that's my personal bias, and I'm not 100% certain that that is best for the game.

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One of the problems can be solved i think

thanks for the suggestions - you helped me to come up with this idea

 

Right now there is 1 circle.if the target is in the circle you can attack it. The rest join as support. 

 

What can be done is this

There could be 2 circles.

  1. attack circle allowing you to attack the enemy (should be smaller than the current one) - solving counter tag - as both ships have to be closer to each other. 
  2. very large pull circle (size of 1 mins of sailing). Pulling everyone into the battle where they were on the map (forcing fleets to sail with some organization)

 

After this battle closes immediately. 

 

Benefits

  • counter tag issue - solved.
  • Joining at wrong places - solved.
  • Land problems - solved.
  • Battle screen camping - solved. 
  • It will look natural (with no strange circles to join)
  • can join cannot join can be abandoned as useless. (all visible/vulnerable ships will be pulled) 

Drawbacks

  • no support possible.
  • If you are in port or outside of that large pull circle thats it - no battle for you. Workaround - sail within 1 mins of sailing to each other
  • the main issue is this - If there are more than 50 ships in the area - who do we pull? Possible to solve with some algorithm. But if there are 100 ships in the area there will be some funny situations.
  • Passers by will be pulled too. But if they are far they will exit on exit timers. 
  • Solo ships attacks will be much harder (due to antigriefing) because the circle is bigger (but maybe it can be tied to historical consideration that a solo ship won't usually attack an enemy if a large enemy force is within 1 min sailing away from you)

 

 

I like the general idea, but I'm not sure how it solves the revenge fleet issue. In my experience, revenge fleets are typically players who were in port until the call came over TS/national chat, who then sail to the given coordinates and wait for the "gankers" to pop out of battle. Would ships be popping out of battle in the positions they entered the battle, or a system like suggested above where they spawn in OW in the direction they sailed in the battle? For example, when you drop from battle would you spawn into OW at the closest edge of the 1 minute circle? 

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What if, instead of a 20 second timer, we put in a 60 second timer for battle tags (just bear with me). The attacked guy, can try to run off but as long as he's in the one mintue circle, the battle will still start unless the attacker cancels the attack (in case the attack will result in being too far apart to ever realy hit eachother).

 

Now instead of the support option, all the people inside the circle including the attacked person can get into formation, or at least get closer together. This way where with a 20 second timer you might find yourself on the edges of the battle, never being able to reach the battle, but with the 60 second timer you have time to get closer to the action before the battle starts. So instead of the support at least with this method you can fully use all the support that is inside the battle.

Edited by LanderD

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Just imagine the usual case of a ship sailing at his own and being intercepted by a large force. No chances of friendly support and now if an AI fleet of his nation is close it wont participate in the battle.

Sorry but I dont see it.

 

 

if the fleet is close enough it could be pulled in as well.

if it is separated it won't join at all.

 

Basically the main difference with the current system is this - it turns 2 min join timer into a pull circle. Forcing better organization onto fleets sailing in the OW, making positioning on the OW a lot more important - with much less dancing around. 

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if the fleet is close enough it could be pulled in as well.

if it is separated it won't join at all.

Basically the main difference with the current system is this - it turns 2 min join timer into a pull circle. Forcing better organization onto fleets sailing in the OW, making positioning on the OW a lot more important - with much less dancing around.

Hmmm it all depends in how big is this circle and if at the end improves the 2 minutes join timer.

Also, if someone attacks an AI fleet of your nation, will it happen the same?

I say this because lots of people use this tricks to drag you into battle by surprise. Just imagine this trick with your proposal.

The gankers organization in OW usually is good (on chat group or TS) which it worries more is the fucked poor random guy.

Edited by Intrepido

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How to prevent abuses using this system ??  A single fake arranged encounter near a lot of ships between an enemy and an infiltrated / alt account pulling everyone in the large circle into battle ? 

 

Also how does it changes the " the Battle screen camping - solved. " ? Players can report accurate positions of battle, what does it change here for players not wanting to leave expecting a welcome committee ?  

 

A bit tired so maybe i missed something ?

 

The no support possible removes something from the game, it's a nice feeling to try get to someone rescue in time and even greater feeling when you manage to help/save him, sometimes simply jumping in time on the battle and do the scarecrow while he had been screwed in his ships against the enemy, even more rewarding feeling when you help a trader that was already starting to pack his captain stuff as soon captured.

 

 It's a nice part of the game to help and it bring something special, it isn't something i'd like to see removed but at contrary reinforced, will take out a part of what makes the charm of this game .

 

 

I think we need to see the size of the smaller circle.  It could be that even starting an engagement with an unwilling person is going to be much harder to pull off, as in you have to have ran him down in the first place. This would also give the support team time to arrive while the tag chase was going on.

 

Besides, although it might lose one thing with support not possible, it solves what I think is a much greater issue. Sometimes you have to throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

I think your right about it not solving the battle screen waiting problem however.

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"Safe battle result screen (allowing staying in the results forever)"

remove it, only if you will be placed in OW on coords, that you was in battle, when it was ended.

And if you will just remove it, then ppl will press alt+f4 in battle screen and wait in offline.

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One of the problems can be solved i think

thanks for the suggestions - you helped me to come up with this idea

 

Right now there is 1 circle.if the target is in the circle you can attack it. The rest join as support. 

 

What can be done is this

There could be 2 circles.

  1. attack circle allowing you to attack the enemy (should be smaller than the current one) - solving counter tag - as both ships have to be closer to each other. 
  2. very large pull circle (size of 1 mins of sailing). Pulling everyone into the battle where they were on the map (forcing fleets to sail with some organization)

 

After this battle closes immediately. 

 

Benefits

  • counter tag issue - solved.
  • Joining at wrong places - solved.
  • Land problems - solved.
  • Battle screen camping - solved. 
  • It will look natural (with no strange circles to join)
  • can join cannot join can be abandoned as useless. (all visible/vulnerable ships will be pulled) 

 

In the absence of my/Skully's expanding doughnut/circle idea I'd be in favor of a solution like this, however, one of the key components of the expanding join zone that I think would be critical is voluntary joins.

 

I would propose that if we test this solution that outside the attack circle the opportunity to join the battle be voluntary, not mandatory. We already are sucked into far, far too many random encounters because a new player decides to tag an AI trader while others are sailing through.  If you popped up the battle join screen within the larger join circle then it could limit the joiners to the first 25 and if the battle isn't filled players within say 30 seconds any AI within the join circle will be slotted in.

 

I still think the expanding join zone solution would be preferable, and more realistic, as it would allow for some degree of flanking and post-attack positional join-in by players moving in from outside the original join zone. But I understand the implementation might be more difficult.

 

I would also throw my weight behind the idea of exiting battle in the position that you were in while in the battle instance.  But, I think to solve the battle screen camping issue, in addition to the 5 minute timers I proposed before, your player ships should be visible in the open world instance while in battle screen (with an appropriate indicator when you click them telling them they are currently in battle screen). This would eliminate the possibility of surprise when someone pops out of battle. 

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One of the problems can be solved i think

thanks for the suggestions - you helped me to come up with this idea

 

Right now there is 1 circle.if the target is in the circle you can attack it. The rest join as support. 

 

What can be done is this

There could be 2 circles.

  1. attack circle allowing you to attack the enemy (should be smaller than the current one) - solving counter tag - as both ships have to be closer to each other. 
  2. very large pull circle (size of 1 mins of sailing). Pulling everyone into the battle where they were on the map (forcing fleets to sail with some organization)

 

After this battle closes immediately.

..

 

I like that idea, please implement it.

 

"the main issue is this - If there are more than 50 ships in the area - who do we pull? Possible to solve with some algorithm. But if there are 100 ships in the area there will be some funny situations."

 

can be solved. Like others said: pull the closest players first.

 

"Passers by will be pulled too. But if they are far they will exit on exit timers."

 

Just an idea: auto pull in the players wich are in the inner half of the large circle and give the players in outter half of the large circle a choice to join or not. Give them a confirm dialog to prevent the players far away to be auto pulled. (Maybe such a dialog needs a 3 second timer to autoconfirm if the player don't can or want to decide)

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There could be 2 circles.

  • attack circle allowing you to attack the enemy (should be smaller than the current one) - solving counter tag - as both ships have to be closer to each other. 
  • very large pull circle (size of 1 mins of sailing). Pulling everyone into the battle where they were on the map (forcing fleets to sail with some organization)
After this battle closes immediately.
I like the principal of this idea very much.

I had put in the complex rules to deal with edge cases. For example, how do you wish to deal with a group sailing on the large pull edge? And what about the enemy they were chasing on or over the edge?

With the first introduction of the positional reinforcements (something nobody has complained on at all (Woo-hoo! Great job. :) ), I liked how we had large battles with multiple squads fighting. Battles would swing one way on the right and the other on the left. So this has great potential.

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Good point. If you know a mate is tagging someone, it opens the possibility of having to scan the horizon and see where the other ships you may want to fight are instead of just trying to get as close as possible to the tag.

This may actually work.

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I actually ment a second group not the primary in which the tag initiated.

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Just an idea: auto pull in the players wich are in the inner half of the large circle and give the players in outter half of the large circle a choice to join or not. Give them a confirm dialog to prevent the players far away to be auto pulled. (Maybe such a dialog needs a 3 second timer to autoconfirm if the player don't can or want to decide)

Herein lies the devil of complexities. As multiple battles erupt there is no way for the player or the game to keep track of everything until the player has made a choice. Hence I had the weird pre-choice of engagement distance. The mechanic can then make the actual choice of joining immediately.

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Interesting point is that adds a layer of complexity to the comms for combined squadron operations. Not bad at all given comms at the age of sail.

On the other hand we might see bigger and bigger fleets roaming about, which is also not that bad during zones prime times.

 

I know it is indirect effects to the mechanic but trying to look beyond the obvious.

 

( I've seen as many people jumping to help as people escaping leaving others to die, that's why i find the timer discussion so moot at times )

 

Needs testing.

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  • the main issue is this - If there are more than 50 ships in the area - who do we pull? Possible to solve with some algorithm. But if there are 100 ships in the area there will be some funny situations.

Could we do something like you pull the 50 ships closest to you? With this, 1st rate fleet will have to stay together and screening fleet with sail around them at a bit of distance (1 minute of sailing) 

Also, I would like to increase the tagging time if we are going for this solution as well, not 1 minute but 30 or 40s.

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"Safe battle result screen (allowing staying in the results forever)"

remove it, only if you will be placed in OW on coords, that you was in battle, when it was ended.

And if you will just remove it, then ppl will press alt+f4 in battle screen and wait in offline.

 

There is another exit option that has not been discussed.

 

After exit, you are immune to attack and being attacked for 200 seconds (+20 seconds past teleport to capital and logout count down).

 

This allows you to leave the battle, look around for up to 20 seconds to make the choice, do I dump any cargo and TP to capital, do I log off, both of which will show as an obvious thing to any waiting revenge fleet as your sails go down and you sit idle for two minutes before vanishing, or do you make a chase of it and cat and mouse for 200 seconds while you jockey for position in the OW tag game and maybe make it to where your reinforcements are waiting.  

 

A big part of the battle screen problem, is you basically transition from one universe to another, with only a guess as to whats on the other side.  This model would let you have 20 seconds to determine your course of action and act once you hit the other side of the looking glass.

 

It could be taken further, that for the first 20 seconds after exit of a battle, the 180 second TP and log off timers are reduced to 30 seconds, so your not waiting around so long, but it is still clear to all around what happened.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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200 seconds is more than enough to travel between two towns in many places of the map.

 

Might give an idea why it can't be so extended.

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AI could be ignored or joined depending of the battle rating for each side in the "large circle", serving as a small "balance" boost if needed.

You could also allow an entry timer of 2 - 5 minutes, like now, but to enter ship should be at the exterior limit of the circle, farest possible from the center. Like adding a third circle, close to the large one, inside the "battle tag", and the zone to join a battle could be between those two circles, and so joining player will spawn far away.

 

Another option to the doughnut, is simply to place entering ships as though there was one.

 

Place any "new" ships in the battle at least 2-3km from any other ship in the instance.  Computers are pretty good at math, so calculate their degree from center where they try to enter the instance, and then along that line place them at a spot that will put them 2-3km from the closest vessel, friend or enemy.

 

That would simulate reinforcements that come from outside the battle zone, and give those inside time to deal with the new sails on the horizon.

200 seconds is more than enough to travel between two towns in many places of the map.

 

Might give an idea why it can't be so extended.

 

So do it the second way, reduce the TP/logout timer on exit.

 

Given these proposed changes, that timer is a left over from way way back, that hasn't really been looked at or changed.  Maybe with these changes it's purpose can be filled with a lower timer as well.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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My only problem with leaving a battle back to the OW, is you can travel dozens of miles in a battle and yet you come back to the exact same place you were at before the battle.   This makes it REAL easy for some to camp a fight.  

 

Fixing this has to be balanced about the potential exploit of traversing the OW in the complete safety of an empty battle instance.

 

 

Tag an AI trader (in your trader), let it run away, use the battle instance to travel to the next port.  

 

Now you go MUCH slower in battle instance that OW, but if your not picky about how long it takes, it would be a great way to safe ship a full cargo hold.

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Right now there is 1 circle.if the target is in the circle you can attack it. The rest join as support. 

 

What can be done is this

There could be 2 circles.

  1. attack circle allowing you to attack the enemy (should be smaller than the current one) - solving counter tag - as both ships have to be closer to each other. 
  2. very large pull circle (size of 1 mins of sailing). Pulling everyone into the battle where they were on the map (forcing fleets to sail with some organization)

 

After this battle closes immediately. 

 

Smaller attack circle will be great!

 

This 2. circle would be huge. 

Just tested the distance: 0,13 degrees in 1 min for 19kn on ow. 15km if the math is right. Sailing fast 12 kn in the battle instance it would take you 43 min to the point where the battle started. Or is there a difference in scale? 

Edited by Fargo

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