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Rules of engagement feedback

  

238 members have voted

  1. 1. Coward perk - allowing

    • Should stay
      58
    • Should be removed
      67
    • Should receive a morale penalty or other penalty
      113
  2. 2. Control perk - allowing distance based exit timer

    • should stay
      98
    • should be removed
      63
    • should replace current hit based exit timer
      77
  3. 3. Safe battle result screen (allowing staying in the results forever)

    • Ship should only be safe in port - battle result screen should drop the player to OW in 5 mins
      113
    • Should stay as it is allowing life to go on
      59
    • Should send you to the nearest port if you stay there for longer than X mins
      66
  4. 4. Invisibility on exit

    • Invisibility should be brought back to allow repositioning after the battle
      127
    • No invisibility
      111


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What I am saying is that someone can sail through the circle to get to the other side.

This is why in the circle everyone should be forced into battle sails or dead slow, to keep them in speeds relatives to battle speed

And why circle should be much larger

Edited by Sire Trinkof

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The problem with this is those who are on the outside can maneuver for optimum position in fast time while those in battle are going off real time.

Note that this is still possible with the double circles, although the actual position you can choose from has become more limited as opposed to when we had the one full circle.

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What I am saying is that someone can sail through the circle to get to the other side.

 

With a properly tuned expanding doughnut zone you would miss your opportunity if you tried to sail through the circle unless your ship was indeed fast enough to flank a battle, which would be realistic and provide for great, strategic decision-making, and fit different play styles, ship types.

Edited by Wraith

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Captains lets discuss the Rules of engagement 

From what we see in your reports there are the main problems currently

 

1) Ships camping in battle result screens or when logged off.

2) No invisibility on exit. That allows revenge ganks to cast a net around the battle spot and sink you on exit. Because you have no control and do not see what is going on outside of the instance you cannot make a decision forcing you to stay in the battle results increasing the problem of camping battle result screens.

3) Entry circles eliminating the need to sail in a organized force (you will still spawn in one place even if you were far away when the battle started

4) Coward perk is letting people have a safe pass in some situations.

 

What are the other problems we missed that bother you?

 

Voted.

 

Additional comments:

1) battle screen: 5-10 mins timer with possibility to log off (necessary evil)

2) Invisibility might also help escaping the gangs.

 

N.B. Decisions on 1 and 2 could be interrelated. Player in the  battle screen could have two options: (a) logging off within 5-10 mins, but in that case the ship would appear for a few seconds in OW, so the opponent(s) knows. On logging on, the player would find himself in OW and not in battle screen. (b.) second option is to get  out of battle screen within 5-10 mins, but then invisibility applies, which allows to escape/regroup.

 

Control perk. Should not be a perk, I think, more of a feature.

 

Coward. Time reduction should be more subtle (-30 sec?) and/or a negative effect/penalty should apply. 

Edited by Stilgar

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With a properly tuned expanding doughnut zone you would miss your opportunity if you tried to sail through the circle unless your ship was indeed fast enough to flank a battle, which would be realistic and provide for great, strategic decision-making, and fit different play styles, ship types.

The Yeahs already have it on the exponentially expanding circle. http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/14789-faul-battle-entry-timer-be-gone-with-thou/

However to bring it to a level where all potential exploits are covered brings complexity.

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If we go for TP, then it should not be possible with cargo or fleet. This to prevent teleporting away with captures. Should you use the log-off you lose the cargo and fleet. (I need to find admins post on this.)

If we go for invisibility, then it should work both ways. Basically you can choose your spawning position blindly (instead of random). Otherwise a scout/bait can direct the invisible fleet.

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Is not fair when someone steal your indiaman with 8000 coal and then he camp or logoff in the Post battle screen. For fix that, we can have logoff or camping in post battle screen but for a good compromise, you will lose all captures or loot from that battle if you don't exit to OW in the next 2, 3, 4 or 5 minutes. Maybe lose the XP and gold gained too.

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To be fair, you shouldn't be able to call in revenge ganks to get back your indiaman to have reinforcements come in warp time instead of the real time you are fighting in.  So the battlescreen, again, is an already existing nice compromise.  By the time word got to port or the patrolling fleet, the captured indiaman would be long gone.  Also, you don't capture repair kits, so if the capturers demasted the indiaman, they are kind of screwed.

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Although I think the current results screen mechanic is best, what about this compromise?

 

      * There is a 10 minute timer in results screen, after that you are kicked into OW

      * You are put into OW in a random direction a minimum of 5 min sail BASED ON WIND AND TYPE OF SHIP in that direction. (i.e. further away if you spawned downwind)

      * Not even a large picket should be able to cover the total are of this. The chance of being able to log off at sea without being revenge fleeted is large.

      * This can simulate the time compression of a REAL TIME battle instance and "reinforcements" covering hundreds of miles of open sea while you are in a local battle.

 

There NEEDS to be a way to log off after a 90 min battle.  You didnt make it into the battle...  You got outplayed.  Get over it.

Edited by Vernon Merrill

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Until every player (who knows how to) can use Counter Tack mechanic to get a 99% escape chance

I would never accept the BS Logout thing in final NA version. Disable Counter tag and force a fight would also solve the problem.

More fights and less waiting will be the result.

 

Dont make the pvp battle ground to a pvp pussy ground

Edited by Sven Silberbart

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Explanation of my votes and thought process:

 

Coward perk:

I'm honestly neutral on this. I haven't met many players with it, nor do I use it, so its effect on my game has been low, so my vote should honestly be neutral/slight penalty. I think the main issue at this point is the tag range/defensive tagging. Defensive tagging should be an option, but maximum distance for the tagging ship from the enemy should be just outside chaser range, not double chaser range. This would still give the attacker the ability to close the range before the defender escapes, and still gives the defender the ability to escape if he is faster or the tagger can't manage to hit with his chasers.

 

Control Perk:

For this I voted to replace the current tag time system, though my thought is that it would be better for it to be both. Timer does not count down until you are out of the "control" circle, then begins counting from 2 minutes. Essentially what was suggested from page 1. I would also like to see the range bumped from 500 to 750 meters for testing, as currently it does feel very short. This could change depending on live testing with everyone in battle having the circle instead of just me.

 

Safe battle result screen:

I voted that it should stay safe, though once again with a condition. Logging out from the battle screen is not punished by a cooldown or anything along those lines. In addition, I really, really, really want to try dynamic drop to OW from battle. If I recall correctly, there is currently a 5 minute timer when the battle "ends" before players are moved to the battle result screen. Given how far most battles tend to move from their start location, and the 5 minutes of possible sailing time for the victor, this provides a cushion for solo/small group players to have a chance of escape from revenge fleets without going back to the gamey invisibility. Moving flags unseen to a port is a nonissue with flags going away, and a timer forcing end of battle if all combatants are able to escape (could even be the battle end timer, have it start when all combatants can escape and have it stop and reset if someone is damaged by an enemy). With that condition, I do not mind a battle result screen timer forcing a drop to OW after 5 minutes or so.

 

Invisibility on dropping from battle:

Resounding no. I have no wish to go back to people dropping and being able to see everything around them without being seen themselves. Instead of evening the playing field (neither side knows the other's exact position), it simply goes back to the original problem we had of gank fleets positioning themselves unseen after dropping from a battle.

 

TL;DR

Problem exists with giving players an actual chance to catch someone after a defensive tag (very long distance in battle with half decent defensive tag), solve this and give the attacker a chance to catch the defender if they have the faster ship and/or chasers.

 

Problem exists with players not dropping from battle because of guaranteed death at the hands of the revenge fleet that assembled while they were in battle, as a result of instant communication and compressed OW time. Need to make the players on OW actually hunt for the players dropping from battle instead of camping on the position that their clanmate/nation buddy called out in chat, by making it so that there is a much larger potential area that the player(s) in the battle can appear from. This can also allow battle markers to remain visible until all players inside have left/logged, since it would be unlikely that the players inside are still near the origin of the battle.

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Exploit: see an enemy blockage, tag another friendly (/smuggler) player, sail past the blockade, continue / dock / whatever.

Forgot about that one. I have added it to the gankers guide, although it is not really a gankers trick. It could also be used by a trader + escort combination.

This exploit can be achieved by having invisibility, spawning in Open World at end of battle position instead of initial battle position or allowing docking up at ports in battle.

I really like the last one though.

As he stopped into Kingston docks, it was obvious, his ship was a loss.

Maybe allow continous spawning from Port into battle with potentially multiple spawn positions, a queue, and having abusers auto-escape... haha, the complexities... /me runs back to the beach. :P

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Posted this in another thread, but it probably belongs here more.

 

 

I have been watching this particular argument for some time, in several different threads, but to date I have not seen a suggestion that takes it beyond the current encounter.

 

What I mean, is that with RvR, and hostility mechanics coming into play, perhaps a different solution, one that does not penalize the fleeing individual, but rather has a national impact on the ongoing conquest game, is worth considering.

 

Let me try an example that assumes that 1 BR directly translates into 1 hostility.

 

Lets say you get tagged in a rattlesnake (BR 50), by a superior Trinc, (BR 200).  For both sides a type of win is to not die, and that "win" is worth hostility based on the BR total for both sides.

 

The rattlesnake would get 150 hostility (200-50) while the Trinc on the other hand gets a much smaller 13 hostility (50  / (200/50) rounded up) increase in hostility for his nation. Both are required to make it to a national port to claim that hostility for his team without using the TP to capital, taking more than 5 minutes in any battle screen, or logging off at any time. 

 

So now the choice, and I am really big on choice, is to forgo the national reward of hostility for the "win", or really take a chance and jump out and run for it.

 

In a cat and mouse chase, the mouse has a continuing and growing incentive to keep ducking enemies, because for every time he is tagged, he builds up more hostility reward, that will be lost if he is sunk, dallies in the battle screen, or logs off.  If he can evade multiple ships or groups, that hostility reward will become very significant.

 

If real life does call, or he basically surrenders without risking his ship by camping in the battle screen, those rewards are lost.

 

This way you can choose to avoid being dragged into multiple engagements, but doing so has a negative impact on your nations war progress, as the Trinc (13) will make it back to port to claim, without forcing you to lose a ship.

 

Well that's the idea anyway, start shooting holes in it.

 

 

On the invisibility question, would it be possible to exit in the OW more relative to the travel within the battle instance.  That way if your fleeing, odds are you will not pop out where you were when you entered, and it would cover off on the "random" drop out.

 

Sure the enemy could communicate via TS or other, but with a 2-3 compass point variance in direction at random, odds of them getting both direction and distance exact for an outside player to jump correct, would at least give a fighting chance of escape, still allow clever pursuit, and at least pop them out relatively close to where they left the battle.  

 

If that was possible I would enforce a 2 min max [Esc to exit] window (based on distance not tagging) and force them to battle screen after that.

 

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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For the battlescreen sitting, would it be an option if one side wins the battle (all oponents sank/captured/surrendered) and the BR is somewhat fair, to give them a "Free passage" as a sort of honour thing for winning the battle. As honour was still prety much alive at that time. Like give them a long invisibility timer or a TP to the closest free town.

 

Other than that, BS sitting in fear of counter ganks is only realy a problem around capitals, and I don't feel we need to give these people any other benefit. They only have to sail in with their gank fleet with a good wind, tag whoever is near. Nobody else can join who exits ports after the gank starts, whoever is near is sometimes not near enough to join. And they can now just log off, boot up their alts and do other stuff. These are just guerilla hit and run tactics one would only see done from Pirates, and not in bellona's and consti's, but in much smaller ships so they could actualy run and not hide.

 

In the age of sail, would a bunch of ships tag a small fleet when they know there are bigger ships around, and they don't have the speed to escape afterwards, no they wouldn't and if they did they would know it would be a great  risk.

 

What would be the "Utopia" of this game, is if instead of sailing the OW and entering ports we would be sailing around in the "Battle world" all the time. So there would be no need for tagging, talking about timers etc. it would be the ultmate sailing game with a high level of realism. Seeing cannons fire in the mist, the sounds, the way you could better position yourself or get into formation when you approach a fleet. It would be like real sea battles, No more grief tagging, no more BS sitting, no more accidently dragging people into battle, would be a much fairer balanced game. However I do know that this is impossible for many reasons. But it would be the ultimate game for me... Wouldn't mind sailing across the map at 11 knots instead of 20. Something for the future?

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another drastic solution is to remove land from OW battles and only keep land in coastal battles or in port battles. Then we can bring back normal time/distance based spawns that existed before the land in battles introduction 

 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

 

1) Ships camping in battle result screens or when logged off.

2) No invisibility on exit. That allows revenge ganks to cast a net around the battle spot and sink you on exit. Because you have no control and do not see what is going on outside of the instance you cannot make a decision forcing you to stay in the battle results increasing the problem of camping battle result screens.

 

One way to get around these problems would be to see to that the ships that leave battle appear in the OW at the place they were when they exited the battle (not where they were when they entered the battle)

It would make it way more difficult for any "ganking fleet" to anticipate where the "prey" would surface in OW.

 

I voted for invisibility as a quick fix but i don't really like it.

And with the above mentioned feature, invisibility would become redundant.

 

PS. True that such a feature could be used in some negative ways, like to hide in a non populated "battle" to make your approach to a port. But that would take hours and hours to get anywhere compared to the OW. DS.

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What would be the "Utopia" of this game, is if instead of sailing the OW and entering ports we would be sailing around in the "Battle world" all the time. So there would be no need for tagging, talking about timers etc. it would be the ultmate sailing game with a high level of realism. Seeing cannons fire in the mist, the sounds, the way you could better position yourself or get into formation when you approach a fleet. It would be like real sea battles, No more grief tagging, no more BS sitting, no more accidently dragging people into battle, would be a much fairer balanced game. However I do know that this is impossible for many reasons. But it would be the ultimate game for me... Wouldn't mind sailing across the map at 11 knots instead of 20. Something for the future?

Would be in my opinion the best way of doing things, smaller map, less player on a server... But no need for mechanism tag, battle screen tweaking... For NA2 I hope :)

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One of the problems can be solved i think

thanks for the suggestions - you helped me to come up with this idea

 

Right now there is 1 circle.if the target is in the circle you can attack it. The rest join as support. 

 

What can be done is this

There could be 2 circles.

  1. attack circle allowing you to attack the enemy (should be smaller than the current one) - solving counter tag - as both ships have to be closer to each other. 
  2. very large pull circle (size of 1 mins of sailing). Pulling everyone into the battle where they were on the map (forcing fleets to sail with some organization)

 

After this battle closes immediately. 

 

Benefits

  • counter tag issue - solved.
  • Joining at wrong places - solved.
  • Land problems - solved.
  • Battle screen camping - solved. 
  • It will look natural (with no strange circles to join)
  • can join cannot join can be abandoned as useless. (all visible/vulnerable ships will be pulled) 

Drawbacks

  • no support possible.
  • If you are in port or outside of that large pull circle thats it - no battle for you. Workaround - sail within 1 mins of sailing to each other
  • the main issue is this - If there are more than 50 ships in the area - who do we pull? Possible to solve with some algorithm. But if there are 100 ships in the area there will be some funny situations.
  • Passers by will be pulled too. But if they are far they will exit on exit timers. 
  • Solo ships attacks will be much harder (due to antigriefing) because the circle is bigger (but maybe it can be tied to historical consideration that a solo ship won't usually attack an enemy if a large enemy force is within 1 min sailing away from you)

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yeah i like it, kind suck for the support part, but i think it a fair tradeoff... you could actually block someone if you plan it right.

Edited by ulysse77

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Friendly support for the ganked ship is a must.

The attackers will have all the benefits with this system.

Edited by Intrepido

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AI OW fleets could be an issue. Might make it nigh-impossible for smaller ships to tag anything due to BR Differences. Maybe have OW AI only come in in the smaller tagging circle?

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AI OW fleets could be an issue. Might make it nigh-impossible for smaller ships to tag anything due to BR Differences. Maybe have OW AI only come in in the smaller tagging circle?

 

ai could be ignored in pulling (or) we can switch back them joining the battle from time to time.

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How to prevent abuses using this system ??  A single fake arranged encounter near a lot of ships between an enemy and an infiltrated / alt account pulling everyone in the large circle into battle ? 

 

Also how does it changes the " the Battle screen camping - solved. " ? Players can report accurate positions of battle, what does it change here for players not wanting to leave expecting a welcome committee ?  

 

A bit tired so maybe i missed something ?

 

The no support possible removes something from the game, it's a nice feeling to try get to someone rescue in time and even greater feeling when you manage to help/save him, sometimes simply jumping in time on the battle and do the scarecrow while he had been screwed in his ships against the enemy, even more rewarding feeling when you help a trader that was already starting to pack his captain stuff as soon captured.

 

 It's a nice part of the game to help and it bring something special, it isn't something i'd like to see removed but at contrary reinforced, will take out a part of what makes the charm of this game .

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