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Fleets

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Foghorne    122

Trader lynx with his AI conni attacking my trader lynx.

Player in mercury with 2 AI niagara attacking my snow.

 

This is so wrong.  Players with AI fleets should have attack button disabled.

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There is no need for AI fleets, period. Noobs cant field them effectively. If you have the crew for a bigger ship, get the bigger ship. 

 

Need an escort for your valuable cargo? Hire someone and increase the PvP on the PvP Server, and put some of that wealth back into the economy by paying those escorts.

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Sir Texas Sir    3,648

Trader lynx with his AI conni attacking my trader lynx.

Player in mercury with 2 AI niagara attacking my snow.

 

This is so wrong.  Players with AI fleets should have attack button disabled.

 

So because I'm a Post Captian I should not be able to say.  Lt and 2nd Lt you get in those ships and come with me.  There is a trouble some Pirate hunting our traders in such and such area and we need to stop them.  So I go on patrol wiht my two Niagara's in some shallow waters and I prevent you from hitting other ships?  Maybe you should of got some help.  With either other players or fleet of your own.  If your not of rank to crew more than one ship than you prob should be watching out more and picking more fair fights or avoiding the ones you are out number.  What is the difference from one player with two AI or three players?   The fact you have better odds against the one player with two AI that tend to do stupid stuff and can't sail or aim for crap half the time.

 

To be honest the only reason I bring two AI's now with my Merc is cause the US PvP2 Nation players are now brining fleets with them to Port battles so we Pirates are doing the same to counter them.   It's cause they can't win a fair fight when they even out number us.  I know this cause I use to be in the US nation and watched them bring Basic ships with no mods and keep complaining why they where getting suck so fast.  Uh cause you brought a crap ship to a major fight.

 

There is no need for AI fleets, period. Noobs cant field them effectively. If you have the crew for a bigger ship, get the bigger ship. 

 

Need an escort for your valuable cargo? Hire someone and increase the PvP on the PvP Server, and put some of that wealth back into the economy by paying those escorts.

 

Noobs as you call them can't even field them cause they don't have the crew to fill the ships up.  So most the times it's some one that has been playing the game for a while and has some clue.

 

Hate to tell you unless it's a clan mate most folks aren't going to go and be bored while you sail cargo a long distance and not get paid.  Cause to be honest I have rarely every had some one offer money for me to escort there ship safely.  Though I have been screamed at in chat after they get tagged in there trader just after we warned every one such and such ships was patrolling that area hitting traders and our ships.  Many of these folks aren't noobs at all according to there ranks, they just don't pay attention and only want help when things are going bad for them.

 

You know what I do when I see AI ships.  I SINK THEM.  Cause guess what that crew they just lost or even the ship if I board it just cost them money.  Even if they get away and most the time they don't cause we can blow past the AI and get them.  Than come back and sink/kill the crew of the AI ships with no problems.  Even when out numbered and no AI ships of our own.

 

reasonable compromise:

a. no AI fleets to warships

b. limit them to traders and only to the ones who need them (Indiaman)

c. put a limit on selectable ships for AI fleets (only be accompanied by XY ships)? 

 

This makes it more predictable for trader hunter and you should perform better.

But, imho. I don´t see the point putting a limit on it.

 

The "crew management" system balances it nicely. Do I take the risk on my own? No, okay.

Then my profit will be reduced y putting AI fllet on it, because I usually loose a lot of crew.

 

Wait, wait. New solution:

AI fleet?

Hiring cost.

Balancing by hiring cost.

The risk-averse player will take it more oftenly,

the risk-lover will go without.

 

There is all ready a limit to the ships you can bring.  Shallow water or Deep water depending where you are going to sail.  You are also limited to the number of crew you have to man them.  Sorry some new player should not be on the same level as me with crew and ships.  Cause I can man and command more ships than they can shouldn't mean I should be limited and not allowed to do so.

 

Though I wouldn't mind if they did a class limit cause i think it's silly to see a Lynx with two SOL or even Frigates escorting it.  Maybe you can only fleet like ships?

Edited by Sir Texas SIr

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The Red Duke    6,298

They did sail in groups, they did sail as fleets.  Fun fact, the United States in the early 1800s built a large number of Sloops and brigs for hunting shipping of the British to cut off the supply from the West Indies.   The British responded by increasing the numbers of light ships "unrates" themselves and sending them along with trade ships to protect them from these small fast American raiding vessels.  

 

"During the Napoleonic Wars, the Royal Navy increased the number of sloops in service by some 400% as it found that it needed vast numbers of these small vessels for escorting convoys (as in any war, the introduction of convoys created a huge need for escort vessels), combating privateers, and themselves taking prizes."-Winfield, Rif, British Warships in the Age of Sail: 1714–1792, Barnsley (2007) ISBN 978-1-84415-700-6

 

Creating the need and actually putting into practice are different things as you surely know. I am sure you are educated enough to dig deeper to what is behind a single line.

As an example let's say one of the heaviest laden convoys was escorted by two frigates dettached from Pellew's squadron while he was posted in blockade duty along brittany coast.

Two frigates for six trader ships, and that's because the cargo was "state sanctioned" albeit being hauled by private company.

The same way a treasure fleet from the spanish crown was escorted by two frigates. Was assaulted by RN but during the night they managed to transfer the cargo to smaller ships that came from Cadiz and thus foiling the pursuers intentions.

The RN did not force a blockade on many french privateer ports just because they were ineffective. In truth it was the only way they could effectively give the traders a "sense of something was being done". Numbers of prizes falling into french hands speak by themselves, the same as french trade numbers jumped by Brittish also account to support it.

 

It is a game and there's enough NPC fleets around to provide shelter to a trader and they actually get spawned automatically by player presence in the area so they are almost always there.

 

The mechanic is here and it is used. Fine, okay, I understand, I have to play the game knowing it is in game, but I do not like it.

I simply cannot find a strong reason for them to be in game without unbalancing a whole OW collection of gameplay. It is simply a gimmick for "single players" that populate a multi player game. But then when they are jumped by a true fleet of players, 3 v 3 in truth, they cry gank... well...

 

#nofleets

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Skully    1,012

What happens to captured ships if "Send to outpost" is removed?

Edited by Skully

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Skully    1,012

Will store what I can in my ship. Leave the rest.

I don't like to sink my captures. :)

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Wilson09    282

It is a game and there's enough NPC fleets around to provide shelter to a trader and they actually get spawned automatically by player presence in the area so they are almost always there.

I simply cannot find a strong reason for them to be in game without unbalancing a whole OW collection of gameplay.

It is simply a gimmick for "single players" that populate a multi player game.

But then when they are jumped by a true fleet of players, 3 v 3 in truth, they cry gank... well...

 

Usually very controlled.

But this seeems to be your personal "battlefield", right ?

 

The reason for not finding a reason is, you did not sail an Indiaman on your own?

Evidence? Here, you need empirical evidence.

 

I cannot give you academical proof, but I did around 100 trips on my Indy from A to B and B to A.

Why did I end up assigning a fleet to it, if it cost me only speed and crew (=money) if I get ganked?

 

Because I am stupid? Irrationale? Gimmick for "single players"?

Are you joking?

 

Because i play my profit-maximizing strategy here !

And this strategy depends on all those "sharks" out there trying to swallow me.

 

simplistic approach:

my strategies

A: no fleet

B. 2 AI fleet

 

situation: enemies out there, if so, they want to swallow me

 

Situation x:

an environment with NO enemies at all, what do I play ? A

 

Situation y:

an environment with 6th and 7th rates only, what do I play ? B

 

Situation z:

an environment with 4-5 5th rates and upwards only ..., what do I play ? A (anything else would cost more)

 

So, I cannot find a dominant strategy here. The dominant strategy exists,

if there are no big ships attacking.

 

Right, i have been assuming all want to attack me. Playing B only helps me in y.

 

By testing i found out, that my AI fleet puts the enemy off, even if there are 4,5,6,7, it is like in biology,

I am too time consuming to swallow, not so "sweet" anymore. They engage only with 50% probability.

 

OFC, even  if they were not out there to catch me, it goes like:

"Ey, Indy, catch him? Sure 5 min rage board, lets do then keep going and kill tha rats."

 

You are all out there for the little nice meal inbetween.

And all those, whose intention WAS NOT to capture traders and HUNT them (like you do) they are PUT OFF easily !

 

And this is the way, it should be !

Edited by Wilson09

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Powderhorn    2,045

That's why I'd like to include perk points into the cost of using fleets. It's rational to use them, and really, there is very little downside. (Crew loss?)

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What happens to captured ships if "Send to outpost" is removed?

 

Could implement a "tow" feature. Send a minimal crew over to the captured ship to hook up a rope and pull it back to port. If you get caught in another battle, the captured ship is unusable. If you're sunk, you lose the capture - as is normal.

 

As for capturing multiple ships? That's a different discussion pertaining to the credibility of chain-boarding.

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That's why I'd like to include perk points into the cost of using fleets. It's rational to use them, and really, there is very little downside. (Crew loss?)

 

Some would say the downside is you are then using AI to do a job that real people could do. Added benefit being that you could inject more cash into the economy at the same time from the payments made to these escorts. 

 

Bring back the AI for the newbies only, if you must have some AI, since potentially they would not necessarily have the cash to pay for a player escort (however, crew limitations make it unlikely noobs will use the AI. I didn't). The bigger traders should be hiring real people to do that job.

Edited by Captain Kibble

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Powderhorn    2,045

I agree that I prefer real player escorts for traders. However, I believe admin has mentioned on the forums in the past that he would like to keep some form of fleets for the many players who enjoy using them. I think tying it to perks is the best way to satisfy both sides' goals.

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Wilson09    282

>> then using AI to do a job that real people could do

Sure.

Clans don´t need it. But 3-5 player clans wont be together all the time.

 

You can counter-attack this argument.

Why does the "lonely" trinc-hunting-trader will not bring in more "friends" to get me down?

 

To be honest, i am just doing "test runs".

I am far from the point to verify that Trader+2 NPCs is profit-maximizing.

As loosing all 3 in battle is a disaster (crew + cargo loss).

 

I have not been caught recently, all of you are hunting LORD V. !

Edited by Wilson09

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The Red Duke    6,298

Fair enough Wilson, I can see the others point of view hence living up with it and "sucking" it up. Still, as Powderhorn posts, there's room for improvement.

 

But then I am a dastard. I like to imagine a pirate not being a farmer, not owning a mine, etc... ( oops, OT again ;) )

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Wilson09    282

One might argue, I have not found the right "spot" or "role to fill in" as a player in NA.

(you must know, i started as a Dutch merchant and the crown did not like some of my actions...)

 

But then, even NASSAU had to be organized and run by "accountants"...

Not all can be out there and hunt hunt hunt....oh forgot, Lord V. can. He does not need a safe haven.

 

But I like some roleplay and Mortimer to be supplied with goods and "prosper" in any thinkable way. 

 

Sure, I play my "own" game in this respect, but we all do more or less.

Edited by Wilson09

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Ojibwa_Wind    30

AI fleets in game sailing around for clans or player to attack fine. Player who needs an AI fleet not okay. This needs to be removed from the game. Fleet with others or go it alone.

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Wilson09    282

AI fleets in game sailing around for clans or player to attack fine. Player who needs an AI fleet not okay. This needs to be removed from the game. Fleet with others or go it alone.

 

Good you pointed with a finger on it.

I believe, the opposite should be the case.

 

In a "perfect NA action setting", NPCs would be reduced with rank and disappeared completely at max. rank.

No NPcs sailing around at all.

 

- AI fleets sailing around = no (yes, maybe, if they acted according to the diplomacy)

- player with AI = yes

 

Have not tagged a NPC in OW for.....6 weeks?

Never used them as a "coverage" or hideaway opportunity...

 

Trade / hunt players / the odd PB or fleet mission, thats my mantra.

No NPC farming.

Edited by Wilson09

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Ojibwa_Wind    30

I tell you the fun is going from this game. PPL with AI fleets take the fun out of it. I was what I thought was an essex against a firgate. Me essex other other a frigate. It didn't show he had a AI fleet. Got into a battle he had a fleet. WHY!!! Why do people feel the need a fleet. You want to beat me. Beat me one on one or in a player fleet then. But if you have to have a AI fleet WHY WHY WHY are you in this game. GET RID OF THESE AI PLAYER FLEETS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited by Ojibwa_Wind

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Ojibwa_Wind    30

Wilson09 I'm not talking AI fleets that sail around in this game. I'm talking AI fleets that players add ship too their ship they are sailing in. I don't understand this at all. Listen I'm not the greatest player in this game but I like a PVP fight only or if you are /other players fleeting or in two's, what ever. Fine I know what Im going into. all player fleets are fine. But if you are a player that needs a AI fleet to battle every time. Then you didn't learn how to operate your ship. I was told "well you should take every advantage the game give's you. I disagree, you take advantage by developing your skills, learning how to operate your ship. Learning how to fleet with others. Learning battle tactics, both alone and fleeting up with other players. Taking on others is the advantage here. It is the game. Dropping sails and watching the AI ship do the battle for me is no fun. What is the fun in that. Unless you are not good with your skills, then you need the AI fleet.

 

Again DEV'S remove the AI fleeting here. It does not work in this game it limits player's alot.

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Jean LaPointe    192

I tell you the fun is going from this game. PPL with AI fleets take the fun out of it. I was what I thought was an essex against a firgate. Me essex other other a frigate. It didn't show he had a AI fleet. Got into a battle he had a fleet. WHY!!! Why do people feel the need a fleet. You want to beat me. Beat me one on one or in a player fleet then. But if you have to have a AI fleet WHY WHY WHY are you in this game. GET RID OF THESE AI PLAYER FLEETS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry but I totally disagree with you on this matter for getting rid of the AI fleets. Since they have increased the span of controll over getting into a battle when you were not the target but are now in the battle an AI is what is needed to help you escape the battle (you being in an unarmed trader). I spend a great deal of time testing this aspect and this is what i have found:

If you have an AI fleet and it should require each ship to be fully crewed (this puts crew at rick so the larger the AI vessel is, the greater the crew loss can become. (Financial hurt for crew replacements). This rule would also prohibit a small ship have a large ship as an AI escort. 3rd rates and greater, there is not enough crew in your profile to proved fully crewed escorts. You could barely afford to crew your frigate and have two AI frigates in tow, you would need the rank of Rear Admiral to do this (Although in this situation if the indivual is dumb enough to deploy a fleet this way and lost it, it would cost him 420,000 gold for crew replacement. That would be one very expesive battle to risk that much in a crew)

Using smaller vessels as escorts do help finacially and can be disposable. (Weighting the cost of vessel and crew against gains being made by your cargo when delivered).

When sailing in an unarmed or a lightly armed vessel, having an AI escort provides just enough "teeth" to help gain an escape from the attack. Why do you expect me in an unarmed merchant fight you in your warship??

The type and size of the AI Fleet vessel is a determination to be made by the skipper of the fleet. You would want the smaller faster fleets vessels and sometime you will need a fleet smetimes not. There are times you may feel you need only one AI ship insted of two.

I am also going to assume you are only looking at it from a warship to warship contest which is a narrow view in the scope of the game which includes an econonmic issues, trading and crafting.

As long as the mechanics have improved the ability for an attack to be created then the ability for defence (AI Fleets) needs to stay in play.

If you are against AL Fleets being involved then come up with a solution that is both reasonable and workable for all parties. That is what we are here for, this is what we are doing, we see a problem and provide information for the Dev's to work on.

Look, there are all types of players here. I go across the board, play on every server, try out different approaches to the game. I spend a lot of time to see how the new player can survive and in some cases it is a very hostle world for them.

When I started this game we had access to cutters and lynxs for escorts. This is a wonderful setting for the new play to help survive some encounters and missions. Limit the type of escorts to 6th rate and I think you have a good ballance for the individual wanting an AI escort,

But, by all means , KEEP THE FLEETS.

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The Red Duke    6,298

I did record two consecutive combats versus a pirate hunter that was using a fleet privateer with him. Retreated in the first  being bracket'ed by both in a bad spot and then re-engaged forcing him to run away and lose the NPC privateer. Was a marginal victory but overall I'd say he could've done way better without the fleet.

 

Both rounds revolved about him letting the NPC do the combat for good. He learned nothing.

 

Do I care ? Well... it is annoying. The OW would be better without fleets. Smart traders travels with the roaming NPCs already, we exchange some lines in the chat and salute each other a unsafe trip and we go our separate ways :)

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Wilson09    282

I did record two consecutive combats versus a pirate hunter that was using a fleet privateer with him. Retreated in the first  being bracket'ed by both in a bad spot and then re-engaged forcing him to run away and lose the NPC privateer. Was a marginal victory but overall I'd say he could've done way better without the fleet.

 

Both rounds revolved about him letting the NPC do the combat for good. He learned nothing.

 

Do I care ? Well... it is annoying. The OW would be better without fleets. Smart traders travels with the roaming NPCs already, we exchange some lines in the chat and salute each other a unsafe trip and we go our separate ways :)

 

Hethwill

-you cannot win an argument if you dont give "full information" on the battle - setup?

- who was the hunter? ship?

- you---ship ?

 

and so on...this discussion will lead to nothing otherwise...

Edited by Wilson09

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