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Combat feedback

poll questions  

189 members have voted

  1. 1. Combat length feedback

    • Too long
      24
    • Just right
      151
    • Too short
      14
  2. 3. Cost of mistakes

    • No effect - mistakes has no effect on combat
      27
    • Just right
      148
    • Too costly - impossible to recover
      14
  3. 4. Damage of a perfect broadside

    • Too low
      43
    • Just right
      136
    • Too high
      10
  4. 5. Crew loss during battle from cannonball fire

    • Too low
      36
    • Just right
      110
    • Too high
      43
  5. 6. Sail damage

    • Too low
      22
    • Just right
      129
    • Too high
      38
  6. 7. Mast damage

    • too low
      78
    • just right
      102
    • Too high
      9
  7. 8. Raking (cannon loss + crew loss)

    • Underpowered
      78
    • Just right
      82
    • Too strong
      29


Recommended Posts

Fastidius    305

Its an interesting question in some ways...

 

 

If there is intention for both people to fight it is good but the whole run and tag stuff is a pain....even if you know your faster than them they still run for 15 minutes and annoy you...

 

3 good things

 

Good balance between most ships on a tier ...not too far a gap that 2 or 3 ships cant gang up on a tier or 2 higher....3 trincs vs 1st rate

You can turn the tide of a battle with one or 2 good moves or mistakes in PVP.

the way people use the wind and sails is a big factor in a battle....even just turning them to stop chain damage.

 

3 dislikes

Bullshit perks like defender where even if you do something good and catch them out navigating you still cant jump them

No way to compare speeds and get effective range numbers in a battle

AI ships should never be on a players side...it just ruins any even play.   in fleet missions they just get in the way and are annoying. in Player fleets they are just unbalancing

 

 

Must Dos

 

Fix boarding to be less of a gear check and add some complexity....i have a few suggestions made elsewhere

Weather and lights in night battles are a must in my opinion

some sort of a UI change so you can identify ships at range better.....hit ctrl to get names over ships with a health percentage or something - surely the crowsnest can feed that kind of info back....damage doesnt need to be exact just tell me where to go to assist .

some form of a maptactic or Pinger type thing so you can express commands to a fleet a bit better.  

Edited by Fastidius

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BallsOfSteel    195

Like: Modelling and sounds, effects of smoke etc are excellent and add to the realism of the game.


 


Dislike: The sudden AI turn in battle. Details for missions not listed by approx ship types and numbers for mission.


              AI ship control


 


 


Why?


Well done those involved in making the models and sounds.


 


Is there a modelling for distance between objects? The AI can turn faster than manual sailing it seems.


AI ships should be controllable in a mission by either the senior player or the only player.


,

 


To add combat features:


Player Customization missions which would then link to XP depending on selection would be a real bonus based on mission, ship size qty which are all values which are changeable.


 


Why?


Offer much more flexibility to those seeking missions outside of PVP such as those trying a new ship out as there is not a sandbox for testing ships before crafting or buying.


Make mission harder for better players and also allow for scenarios to be created for several players to join


Edited by BallsOfSteel

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Tyrdael    66

I am for a more severe morale impact with gunnery...shouldnt ships be forced to strike colors if they get a stupid amount of damage in a short time? Or more like a combination of hull/structure damage, leaks, fire, crew loss - to avoid abuse, at least more or less.

 

Edit to this idea: i wouldnt mind if my crew would say "f**k you Cap, we no fight no more" after getting mangled by 3+ ships whom do following (numberz completely made up):

 

20-35% crew PLUS

40-60% hull PLUS

1-2 module hits AND/OR

1-2+ fires

 

After a punishment that bad you autosurrender. To make sure no one grapes you into autosurrender, you should link the damagetypes so you have to do heavy damage along multiple/all lines to get the enemy into striking colors.

 

Just 2 cents

Edited by Tyrdael

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Wilson09    282

You are the man of "cross-referring" Skully.

 

Do you work in "science"? You´d be noble-price-winner already.

Or at least, the most cited researcher in your field of research....

Edited by Wilson09

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Cmdr RideZ    647

Grapes are probably a bit broken.

 

You can have max side armor, and grapes can kill still a lot of crew.  Basically, it might be possible to kill the crew before loosing the hull.  I think this scenario is a bit radical.  The armor should have some reason to be there.

 

Also when stern raking, I think the angle should be more perpendicular to achieve good rakes.  This would need more testing, but there is a change that a rake does not have to be that good, perpendicular, to cause a good amount of crew damage.

 

 

edit.

 

We tested this in a duel, with the same ships.  Graping, fully armored side, full broadside, can kill 10% from the crew.

Edited by Cmdr RideZ

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It is still very frustrating and unrealistic to see a ship sink without any leaks on the hull, i understand players needs to see imediate rewards and have the satisfaction to see there win represented.

 

Instead, i suggest that at the point when you would now start taking water even without leaks (2 sides at zero structure left i think) any additional damage/shot taken decrease the morale of your crew until they surrender. That should allow you to repair if you still can and manage to get away from the combat,  or make sustaining an additional broadside fatal to your crew morale, and auto-surrender.

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Cmdr RideZ    647

Raking with balls is maybe ok, but the grapes are absolutely devastating.  But I understand, that maybe the balls should be a bit unefficient crew killers, so that grapes have a reason.  With grapes, Frig can kill like 100 crew with one rake.

 

I 1st voted that the raking does not do enough damage, because of ball rakes.  Had to change that to too much damage.

 

atm.

 

Just sails down a bit, then rake with the grapes.  No reason to shoot the hull.

Edited by Cmdr RideZ

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Post 3 things you like about the current combat
  • Ship handling. This plays a big part of the overall combat sequence. While I hate getting stern camped by 3 frigates in my Buc (and I am likely to lose under current damage rules) I can maneuver enough to get shots on target. 
  • Overall damage seems to be fair and balanced. While Pirates want more raking damage and others want less the bottom line is if you find yourself in a situation where you have someone raking your stern you usually could have avoided it. In my case it's generally because I end up getting sucked into a turning fight where I have the biggest disadvantage.
  • Heel affects your aiming. This is another of the nice little quirks. The game isn't simply a point-click-shoot-hit game. Just like quick scoping in CounterStrike is not realistic - neither would a simplified aiming mechanic. The aiming of guns was and has some element of intuitiveness. Sailing ships didn't have readouts of the enemy knots and distance. They had to figure that out. As well at timing your shot to rise and fall of the two vessels. 
Post 3 things you don't like (hate) about the current combat
  • Demasting has only minor effect. While the current damage model does add a penalty to tacking I'm not certain it has a penalty to overall speed and structural integrity of adjacent masts. A lost bowsprit should have more impact to your tacking ability. And because the bowsprit is the cantilever that holds the fore upright its loss should have major impact. If your foremast is lost the impacts should be even greater. The loss should affect ship handling abilities to account for structurally compromised rigging or causing a cascading damage effect to the adjacent masts. While this may currently be the case - it doesn't seem to be from my observations. Speed seems to be too little impaired when a mast is lost. It does seem to affect acceleration but top speeds seem to be unaffected. I have demasted stern camping frigates only to watch them keep up in speed and wear without any apparent penalty. I'm not saying that demasting should be easier at all - just saying that with the relative difficulty to demast a ship when it does happen it should have major impacts.
  • Unlimited grape and chain. Admittedly being the victim of this I am biased. However, I am regularly submitted to raking grape and extremely long range chain-shot in most cases for over 1hr30min. Mostly by Pirates. I am not advocating giving a huge nerf to a very effective tactic but I am saying that in general if you get a Pirate (or two or three) on your stern the end result is inevitable - you will either surrender or be captured. I know that there are perks that help offset this tactic but the available perk slots, ability to rest perks, and eventual costs (money and XP) make them impractical. In thinking about the effect of grape on a stern I have to wonder. - why is the damage so different than a broadside? A frigate is low to the water and it's guns should be confined to damaging only those decks that it can reach. For example - when a smaller ship is alongside me my gun depression usually means that my upper guns damage sails or nothing. However, when a Frigate is less that 30 meters off my stern all of my crew are available to take damage regardless of what deck they are on. Again not saying anything should change - just telling you why I hate this aspect of the game.
  • Fires aboard ships. Ships were tinderboxes. Wood slathered in tar and linseed oil and dried canvas. If a fire broke out the crews focus went to putting it out. In the current combat mechanics fires are started (as they should be) but your crew merrily continues to fight the ship rather than focusing on putting the fire out. Also the fires just seem to just linger in the area started rather that spreading like - well - wildfire. And fires don't affect sails at all. 
Post 3 features you believe must be added to combat mechanics
  • Not sure anything needs to be added.

 

OK - now I said my piece - haters go ahead and hate and tell me how I suck or am wrong. LOL!  ;)

Edited by Josiah Reinhart

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Cmdr RideZ    647

 

  • While I hate getting stern camped by 3 frigates in my Buc (and I am likely to lose under current damage rules) I can maneuver enough to get shots on target. 
  • While Pirates want more raking damage and others want less
  • Demasting has only minor effect... A lost bowsprit should have more impact to your tacking ability.
  • Unlimited grape and chain. Admittedly being the victim of this I am biased. However, I am regularly submitted to raking grape and extremely long range chain-shot in most cases for over 1hr30min. Mostly by Pirates
  • ...fires don't affect sails at all. 

 

I did cut your post a bit but...

 

SOL, with the current physics model, seems to be very maneuverable.  I would even decrease their mobility a bit.  Or increase that for the frigs.

 

As a pirate, I think the long cannon chains should be fixed.  It is simply boring to shoot those chains as those are so damn accurate.  I am probably not the most accurate shooter either.

But..  SOL with decreased sails, I think it is less affected than frigs.  This is something that should be checked.

 

As a pirate, I think the grape damage is insane.  The ships are more maneuverable, and raking happens a lot more than irl.  This is at least what I have understood.  So they are trying to make realistic damage model, but the maneuverability part should be taken on account.  One thing cannot be realistic, if the other things are gamey.  And good balance between game/realistic, should be achieved.

 

Frigs are suffering from losing bowsprit, I assure you that.

 

Fires could affect the sails, but once again.  The fire should not be wildfires, as that is a random event.  Now if that is a wildfire and sails are lost if that happens...  Well, does not really make a good game if asked from me.

 

 

I agree, there is balancing to be done.

 

 

edit...

 

The grapes make the game to be spam based -> No skill.

Sailing just matters less atm..  This kinda turns the game to no skill game, and indeed..  That is a nightmare to me, as I like skill based games.

Fix before launch please.  Else I have to really look for another game, this is so utter crap.

 

Chains are disabling the ship, masts will disable it pretty much completely.  So chains wont ever be the final blow, masts can be pretty close to that.  You still have to capture or shoot the hull after this.

 

Grapes are the final blow pretty much.  Those should be disabling, weakening as the chains are.  + as it is enough just to spam the grapes, it removes the skill.

Less crew the ship has, less effective the grapes should be + you have to nerf the initial damage.  This is simply insane atm.  There is nothing fun in this.

Edited by Cmdr RideZ

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Sea Archer    120

Like in history a frigate should never be able to kill a 3rd rate or larger ship alone. Historical examples exist where two frigates could cap a 3rd under lucky circumstances, but not like in this game.

I would really love to see that in NA.

Frigates may sail circles around SoL, rake them and such things, but in the end the firepower of the SoL should sink any frigate. The effect of the big shots is not really reflected in NA. 68pdr carronades should have a devastating effect on 5th rate and below. And make stern camping suicidal.

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dagdriver    38

DISLIKE: More than anything else in Naval Action I absolutely HATE the boarding mechanics.

This sort of turnbased button pushing has no place in this game. Its an odd and stupid way to resolve boarding, and a downright insult to the rest of the beautifull game.

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Sea Archer    120

DISLIKE: More than anything else in Naval Action I absolutely HATE the boarding mechanics.

This sort of turnbased button pushing has no place in this game. Its an odd and stupid way to resolve boarding, and a downright insult to the rest of the beautifull game.

You are absolutely right. It must be reworked. I hope the devs have already planned it.

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Sea Archer    120

I would love to see if the enemy ship prepares for boarding or is ready for.

Up to now it stealth crew assembling on deck. Something should be visible that the enemy prepares something so you can prepare your own ship, too.

It would be even more historical to see the boarding crew assemble on deck.

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Jacob Elston    79

Likes:

 

I Have to say with the new penetration and mast thickness combat is more well rounded and isn't all about demasting and rage boarding. I see a lot more raking, decrewing and taking out cannons cannons and such. Combat to me feels better now with the new mechanics. There is different playstyles and I like that, the focus isn't on one thing being more overpowered like demasting being much easier than sinking or vice versa. Also the new acceleration mechanics are epic.

 

Dislikes

1) Chain shot is too accurate and it's range is too far

2) Storage master repair perk, too overpowered

3) Boarding system

 

Overall I think combat has come a long way and is a lot better with the new mechanics.  :)

 

Chain shot is perfect as it is right now, much shorter and it will become even harder to catch and stop fast ships unless you tagged and landed right next to them.

 

I too am not too keen on the boarding system, but then again it is what we have.

 

*fond memories of the Age of Pirates 2 and Pirates of the Caribbean RPG game ship boarding* :)

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Cmdr RideZ    647

Did not check all but here is one of my previous posts...

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/15714-combat-feedback/?p=303785

 

Dated 27 August.

 

I have at least since that been writing that grapes are OP.  Especially when some guy knows how to use those well. I know pretty well that I have not been the only one complaining about this.  Also, I know I am just someone, so you do not have any reasons to believe me when I say that "this sucks".

 

But still, all the posts and comments have been wasted...  We got explosive rounds called "balls".  It is like, writing about A, and you guys do totally opposite.  Slightly frustrating...

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Thonys    352

hi all

extreme disappointing battle mechanic

 

yesterday 31-10 we had a battle at the Cartagena de Indias

 

we ended up with an enemy loss of 16 first rates and we lost nothing due battle tactics:

 

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/218816086533852478/8129A1AF774CAD1548A2E160559E903CB4AAD12C/

 

 

so in our eyes we won the battle but for some reasson the game was against us and lost the capture of the enemy port (we needed 1 port but bad wind did not allow to reach the port tower )

 

so we won the battle but did not capture the region

i do believe that the game should have no influence in the decision on winning or losing the whole region

 

i can assure you the one who were in that battle will not fight a other battle for the next coming month

 

very disappointing battle lost on mechanics

i can assure you that the spanish captains also had a question mark on there foreheads

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Second :

 

when going into battle at a port battle there are also gigantic home fleets of Ai in front of the screening aria (luckely for the spanishs but )...... who are rather in the way ..

this fleets should not be there.... (they are AI - PVE)

if a port battle is planned at a certain time and screening is arriving >>  6 players( attacking ) vs 6 players( waiting) + 10 AI victory and Bucs (PVE) (patroling blind) =6 vs 6+10 = unrealistic for the screening fleets 

and therefore suicidal fleets.......

 

This kind of mechanic has to change or hell brakes loose the coming battles for sure....(rebuild on mechanics is needed there)

if it is intended  i can tell you it is goodbye for the  port battles........

Edited by Thonys

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hi all

extreme disappointing battle mechanic

 

yesterday 31-10 we had a battle at the Cartagena de Indias

 

we ended up with an enemy loss of 16 first rates and we lost nothing due battle tactics:

 

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/218816086533852478/8129A1AF774CAD1548A2E160559E903CB4AAD12C/

 

 

so in our eyes we won the battle but for some reasson the game was against us and lost the capture of the enemy port (we needed 1 port but bad wind did not allow to reach the port tower )

 

so we won the battle but did not capture the region

i do believe that the game should have no influence in the decision on winning or losing the whole region

 

i can assure you the one who were in that battle will not fight a other battle for the next coming month

 

very disappointing battle lost on mechanics

i can assure you that the spanish captains also had a question mark on there foreheads

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Second :

 

when going into battle at a port battle there are also gigantic home fleets of Ai in front of the screening aria (luckely for the spanishs but )...... who are rather in the way ..

this fleets should not be there.... (they are AI - PVE)

if a port battle is planned at a certain time and screening is arriving >>  6 players( attacking ) vs 6 players( waiting) + 10 AI victory and Bucs (PVE) (patroling blind) =6 vs 6+10 = unrealistic for the screening fleets 

and therefore suicidal fleets.......

 

This kind of mechanic has to change or hell brakes loose the coming battles for sure....(rebuild on mechanics is needed there)

if it is intended  i can tell you it is goodbye for the  port battles........

In addition

The last 5 minutes of this PB all spanish players left the battle or were defeated so we had a massive BR difference. In the last minute we started the boarding of the last tower. The last 10 seconds the boarder was waiting to hit attack after 10 seconds the battle was over - 5 seconds later boarding won. So ok maybe this is part of the game and we should have sailed back to the towers earliers ok ok. Its still weird to "lose"the PB when you forced them ALL out of battle and still dont win.

But this is not all - after the PB ended our main fleet wanted to get back to the capital to get on with their lives, but noooooo huge refenge fleet waiting outside to drag everybody in again and force us to fight near 2 fortress and a lot of towers with AI fleet inside and all. 

I really hope this will be changed in the future - maybe even allow people to TP back to capital after the battle

Also if you have lets say above 4:1 Br time should not matter

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Cmdr RideZ    647

Another thing came in my mind.

 

As raking causes insane crew damage.  Everyone is now complaining about the crew.  So when crew damage is fixed, and the devs should also understand that the grape damage was too high already.  The devs should also understand that mast hitboxes vs ball hitboxes, well, those are both too big.  Masts are still too weak, easy to hit.

 

So breaking the crew damage in this radical way, takes everyones attention out from the lesser evils.  But those are still there.

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The Red Duke    6,298

I do consistently equally with both, cannon ball or grape.

 

The difference is when using carronades at half pistol range. The crew kills are massive.

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Cmdr RideZ    647

I have understood that if the ships were close to each other, muzzle blast had a change to set yours and enemies ship on fire.

 

Also, the ships were so inaccurate, that if you think broadsides fired after 400-500m, I think there was not too high change to hit.  400-500m was already a long distance.  So if we were realistic, we should mostly be hammering each other from right next to each other.  Maybe that vertical unstabilizer would make the game to be more realistic.

 

We have many unrealistic features in the game, still everyone wants to have high rake damage.

 

If you check books of naval tactics, I have not at least found any book that says that keep your formation at 1000m.  All those and images (that I have seen), display that fighting was done in very close ranges.  I believe that the fire from broadside to broadside was deadly enough, that you do not have to start raking a ship.

 

Neither I saw any tactics that state that you should move like a snake and rake to death!

 

So the game is not realistic.  So either redo the combat, again, or think about a bit how to make a GG.  In my opinion, all that "realistic" stuff can be placed to somewhere where the sun does not shine.

Edited by Cmdr RideZ

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The Red Duke    6,298

I may have to test again at a closer range.  I have been firing at around 50-100m range with medium guns and carronades. 

 

Do it. It is not a fire and forget. But it works.

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Cmdr RideZ    647

The real life tactics also work, I use them to great effect in game quite a bit against other players.   They often cry and scream and call me boring, or some other derogatory term.   But I have read some battle reports from the Royal Navy and US Navy, some of the engagements were out to 700yds or more.   It depends on the condition of the sea and the ships engaged. 

I have read that the damage has not been significant, when starting fire from longer distances.

 

...

 

Also, before someone comes to say that yes the fleets did try to rake each other in some tactics...  True-true..  But how many of them had a tactic to move like a snake?

 

So in Naval Action it is maybe 10000000000000000000000000000 times easier to rake.  So it simply makes ZERO sense to have this kind of crew damage.  This is OBVIOUS!

 

...

 

 

Lets make an example...  World Of Warcraft, if you did not play, we all know the game.  Fantasy, Aracade, MMORPG.

 

Lets do so that we give a realistic longbow for the Ranger class.  If the hit is good, it will instantly kill the target.  If the hit does not kill, it will wound badly.  Every arrow after 1st arrow, has even better change to kill the target.

 

How would this work in WoW?

 

Cherry picking a realistic feature and forgetting at the same time all the rest of the features the game has.  Makes no sense.

Edited by Cmdr RideZ

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The Red Duke    6,298

I hear you Vata, but sadly there's more player fleets being used than the OW fleets being dragged. I really think that the OW fleets, after being tuned, will be okay while the insistence of players to boost their BR with fleets is not.

 

As an example, an attack by 2 interceptors against 1 ship would be a good pvp moment and possibly a quality match that can go either way. But suddenly it is actually 6 vs 1...

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Wraith    1,348

Kind of funny I have had MORE OW fights PvP 1v1 than I have had fleet gank fests.

 

The only place I've had regular PvP is in the rookie zone against trader hunters.. And I admit, this may be due to my typical targets being engaged in PvE/hostility generation in other regions that I really have no interest in chasing down, but the current situation has greatly decreased my regular PvP.  I'm willing to see how things shake out on longer terms after front lines have formed, etc. but so far the effect has been chilling.

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