Crew management update - discussion

[admin]

Will crew cost be just paid once when hiring them, or do you plan to have an upkeep cost? In my opinion the "pay once"-option makes more sense gameplay-wise, but I could definitely imagine having to pay some sort of upkeep on Marines (but this upkeep would have to be tied to the online activity).

 

Pay once, life time salary and benefits.

[Hethwill]

Pay once, life time salary and benefits.

 

Sound good and another thing to add to the Pirates differences *scribbles notes*  No Salary, higher benefits, higher share rates.

[Kaos]

It's impossible due to the number of players - because they will never arrive then.

Bots sail slower, under crewed bots will be easy targets. No point to even do this because it will be a fake feature. 

We believe that captured ships should be brought back to port by the player. Even Sid Meier's Pirates had this. 

 

 

Regarding less PvP comments:

if done right we believe that there will be more PvP because of increased traffic bringing valuable ships back home. 

Maybe you are overestimating the value of yellow captured ships (everything below Santisima and Victory since these are 1 durability anyway). Why would anyone sail them back and put themselves at risk of being attacked while not at full complement and spend downtime if they can make same amount of money or even more by just sinking the enemy.

And would undercrewed players sailing their captured ships back provide any more meaningful resistance once caught than bots would?

I suggest send ships back to port using the current delivery system you have now implemented to decrease downtime for everyone.

[Ned Loe]

Maybe you are overestimating the value of yellow captured ships (everything below Santisima and Victory since these are 1 durability anyway). Why would anyone sail them back and put themselves at risk of being attacked while not at full complement and spend downtime if they can make same amount of money or even more by just sinking the enemy.

And would undercrewed players sailing their captured ships back provide any more meaningful resistance once caught than bots would?

I suggest send ships back to port using the current delivery system you have now implemented to decrease downtime for everyone.

If I capped a Vic I would sail back and I dare someone try to take it back.  In the end if I die, I died fighting with honor and did not cry and that is better than any gold rewards. Knowing enemy got -1 pixel 1st rate and they had to sink their own ship. 

[admin]

Maybe you are overestimating the value of yellow captured ships (everything below Santisima and Victory since these are 1 durability anyway). Why would anyone sail them back and put themselves at risk of being attacked while not at full complement and spend downtime if they can make same amount of money or even more by just sinking the enemy.

And would undercrewed players sailing their captured ships back provide any more meaningful resistance once caught than bots would?

I suggest send ships back to port using the current delivery system you have now implemented to decrease downtime for everyone.

 

 

If you remember - we said some time before that current resources and welfare Gold for damage are temporary to provide everyone with enough funds to test the game better. I don't not think money for just shooting should stay in the game.

 

Most still sink ships anyway. 

 

The main choice is basically between

Crew is persistent

Crew is fake

[Kaos]

If I capped a Vic I would sail back and I dare someone try to take it back.  In the end if I die, I died fighting with honor and did not cry and that is better than any gold rewards. Knowing enemy got -1 pixel 1st rate and they had to sink their own ship. 

Notice (everything below Santisima and Victory since these are 1 durability anyway)

 

If you remember - we said some time before that current resources and welfare Gold for damage are temporary to provide everyone with enough funds to test the game better. I don't not think money for just shooting should stay in the game.

Good to know, I never read anything like that and had an impression that this shooting-for-gold is the inevitable norm in this game.

So perhaps it would make more sense to drag back captured ships under those conditions then though I doubt it would be anything more than a nuisance for average player. Let's see how you implement it before judging...

 

[DeRuyter]

Looking forward to testing this system. A couple of comments:

 

How will the surrender mechanic work for the crew on the surrendered ship? Surrender should be a valid option to save crew as it was historically. So if you surrender do you lose the ship but keep the crew (and officers)?

 

Seems to me that this adds an element of player controlled morale into the game. Now you have an incentive to save crew (and officers) instead of letting your ship burn and explode for example.

 

I like the idea of having to put a prize crew on a captured ship to sail it back to port. Would we still have the option to "send to admiralty" and just get prize money without having to sail the ship back to port? Might be a good option versus just add to fleet or sink.

 

Definitely need to have a casualty recovery system after the battle so you really only lose the KIA crew. Surgeon officer comes into play here. That way you may be able to continue cruising without having to return to port after every battle.

[Bach]

It might not be realistic but I do really like being able to teleport my ships, as it is now.

Because of this there is ALLOT less downtime for me, more time to PVP.

 

For me PVP is the best part about this game, introducing mechanics like these could possibly make the game more tedious, increase downtime and be therefore (for me) less fun.

 

Then again, i'm willing to give it a try and see how it works out

You will still be able to do it. But you will need to have a pre-staged ship of the models you prefer to sail at each out post. Your character can still teleport as much as ever. But yes, it's going to require you to build and maintain a few more ships.

[Domox]

I love these propositions. I think all of them are good, except I'd like to see less arbitrary constraints and have the limits be more cost associated.

 

One suggestion rather than requiring prizes to join your fleet I propose this:

  It was common practice with privateers to send crew back to port with the prize/prisoners, and there are a few recorded instances of a captain re-encountering a prize after it had "captured" it just the day before due to it being intercepted again. What if you could assign some crew to a vessel to have it return to port and have it sail by itself to that destination. This would be a risky thing BUT for the privateer that's busy and doesn't want to spend half the day escorting it could be worthwhile. This would increase traffic to prey on, increase the air of mystery when one of your prizes never shows up, it could also lead to interesting dynamics where you have to capture your prize twice in contested waters...

Edited June 2, 2016 by Domox

[HarryButpain]

I love these propositions. I think all of them are good, except I'd like to see less arbitrary constraints and have the limits be more cost associated.

 

One suggestion rather than requiring prizes to join your fleet I propose this:

  It was common practice with privateers to send crew back to port with the prize/prisoners, and there are a few recorded instances of a captain re-encountering a prize after it had "captured" it just the day before due to it being intercepted again. What if you could assign some crew to a vessel to have it return to port and have it sail by itself to that destination. This would be a risky thing BUT for the privateer that's busy and doesn't want to spend half the day escorting it could be worthwhile. This would increase traffic to prey on, increase the air of mystery when one of your prizes never shows up, it could also lead to interesting dynamics where you have to capture your prize twice in contested waters...

 

ye, hornblower did that in one episode where he later on notices that the ship was leaking the entire time xD

Edited June 2, 2016 by BACk ALLEY ShENANiGANS

[Obi-Heed Kenobi]

1+2.

It will reduce PvP.

Gank fleets will be more effective:

- EG. Fight happens on OW. One team gets reinforcements to wait outside battle - When the winning team gets out of battle they have no chance due to Crew loss.

The reason why crew is replenished after battle atm is so we can PvP.

Still, it sounds interesting!.

....

Good point. How about allowing a limited time of invulnerability along with the possibility of teleporting to the nearest friendly/free port? Not the most realistic of options, but I think your concern is a valid one that needs to be considered.

But, I like the idea of the crew playing a role.

[Ledinis]

Really hope you wont make AI ships capturable again. This doesn't go quite well with making ships be worth something if we can easily get an unending supply of them Player fleets, again if you actually need to craft, capture the ships in pvp, sounds good. If you choose to give a Santisima into the hands of a retarded AI that will most likely get it sunk, who am i to stop you  

Other than that like the idea quite much. If you also make Free ports not house warships in them, this would make a nations territorial integrity be worth something, bringing the fighting to the battle front and not hearing new players cry about being ganked near their capitals all the time. Though as many said would like to have the ability to send ships from one port to another that you have outposts in (with a decent fee and time required to do so ofc) 

Also would like to see crew experience in some manor. if your crew survived 5 battles surely they should get a bit better than a bunch of random tavern rats thrown into the boat  

[Ned Loe]

Here is a historical example and hungry British captain in HMS Terpsichore  :

 

...In 1797, she was the flagship of Teniente General José de Córdoba y Ramos, the Spanish commander, at Battle of Cape St Vincent on 14 February 1797, where she was badly damaged and nearly captured by the British fleet. She was first in action with the British ship Captain (74), commanded by Commodore Nelson, and Culloden (74). She was then attacked by the Blenheim (90), Orion (74), Irresistible (74) and Excellent (74). By now she was severely damaged, having lost all her masts and with half of her crew killed or wounded. She struck her colours, but the British failed to take possession and she was saved by the Infante don Pelayo (74) and Príncipe de Asturias (112). Several days later, Santísima Trinidad was spotted, still damaged, making her way back to Spain, and engaged by the 32-gun frigate HMS Terpsichore under Captain Richard Bowen, but she escaped. She eventually returned to Cadiz for repairs.

[Enraged Ewok]

Keep battle swords on OS all the time (historically battles were visible miles away) and don't let them vanish. This way I can camp battles and get pvp knowing battle location and be able to hit players who exit battles.   

 

I disagree with this due to the time compression in OW vs the battle instance. I don't believe a captain who happens by hours to days after the battle began should be able to anchor and wait for the weakened victor to pop out. It's not fun for the guy in the battle to immediately be forced into another battle against a gank squad simply because the guy he killed in the battle gave the location to his friends 2 days sail away. Leaving it hidden at least allows some room for error so that the waiting player/fleet isn't guaranteed the perfect position to intercept anyone who leaves the first battle.

 

Regarding the changes listed, this looks suspiciously like the system Sea Dogs used   which is a good thing in my opinion. More OW traffic, and also prevents the rapid redeployment of ships from one side of the map to another. I can also see this decentralizing ship crafting and commerce centers (currently everything worth anything is in the capital for most nations). I'm a big fan of crew casualties being divided up into wounded/dead, with wounded being available again after the battle and the surgeon/doctor officer. 

 

Also, I second DeRuyter's question. Will surrendering allow us to keep our crew/officers, even though we lose the ship durability? I'd like to see how the player's mind works as the morale system when losing his ship will also mean losing the crew/officers.

 

EDIT: Fixed CTRL-V fail

Edited June 2, 2016 by Enraged Ewok

[Ned Loe]

I disagree with this due to the time compression in OW vs the battle instance. I don't believe a captain who happens by hours to days after the battle began should be able to anchor and wait for the weakened victor to pop out. It's not fun for the guy in the battle to immediately be forced into another battle against a gank squad simply because the guy he killed in the battle gave the location to his friends 2 days sail away. Leaving it hidden at least allows some room for error so that the waiting player/fleet isn't guaranteed the perfect position to intercept anyone who leaves the first battle.

 

Regarding the changes listed, this looks suspiciously like the system Sea Dogs used   which is a good thing in my opinion. More OW traffic, and also prevents the rapid redeployment of ships from one side of the map to another. I can also see this decentralizing ship crafting and commerce centers (currently everything worth anything is in the capital for most nations). I'm a big fan of crew casualties being divided up into wounded/dead, with wounded being available again after the battle and the surgeon/doctor officer. 

 

Also, I second DeRuyter's question. Will surrendering allow us to keep our crew/officers, even though we lose the ship durability? I'd like to see how the player's mind works as the morale system when losing his ship will also mean losing the crew/officers.

 

EDIT: Fixed CTRL-V fail

History tells us different story my friend and Naval Action is historically accurate game. Leaving OS battles visible to players should give Captains freedom to attack/chase when they want even if enemy is weakened. Note - those who camp battles outside can be an ideal target for other Hunters on OS  Creating fun and pvp.

 

Several days later, Santísima Trinidad was spotted, still damaged, making her way back to Spain, and engaged by the 32-gun frigate HMS Terpsichore under Captain Richard Bowen, but she escaped. She eventually returned to Cadiz for repairs.

[SeamanStaines]

In general I do like the sound of these proposals. It should add depth.

I share the concerns about partially crewed ships being attacked immediately after they exit battles, this happens all the time.

So perhaps a mechanic could be introduced whereby crews from sunken ships are picked up and are distributed amongst the fleet or even physically picked up by sailing to the site of the sunken ship and collecting them.

Sailing a captured ship back will I assume be like the current fleet feature. However I would suggest that you can abandon a slow captured ship if you are being chased.

[Fluffy Fishy]

Can we have a rough idea what the current ideas of the price will be please?

Will there also be a couple of basic different tiers of crew eg. Ordinary vs able seamen?

[prreich1]

Will there be a curve for the crew price? first 100 for x amount, the next 100 for more, ect? That would make it more expensive to replenish crew for larger ships, but less for for smaller ones, which (in theory) would make smaller ships more practical.

 

Tbh, I don't really like the idea of having to pay for crew, and it seems like another time sink, but I'm willing to test it before I make up my mind about it.

[Roche Brasiliano]

Lol, instead to simplify the things, you just make it more complicated!

 

I think is pointless to implement such thing without solve others...Just explain me that: so, you are far from your base and cap other player ship in a "fair" fight​; then, no more teleport and you need to go back the entire path to home sailing 2 fat slow ships? And the GANKING friends of your enemy just wait till you pass to just STEAL you BOTH ships?

 

In a possilble perfect enviroment i wish such feature, but NO with currents FLAWS...It will be impraticable and no one will want to cap a ship and expose himself to more risks to get home. To own a 1 dura  ship ​that can cost you both?

 

Yeah, you now can throw stones at me, im hardened...

 

Finish what is already done first, like the economy by example. Simplify, please.

[Horriblehate]

It could work if re-crewing was a nominal fee like the ship repair system, where you just have to "tag in" to port to refresh, or "repair at sea" Really if gives you more system status feedback and another vector to manage.

[admin]

I disagree with this due to the time compression in OW vs the battle instance. I don't believe a captain who happens by hours to days after the battle began should be able to anchor and wait for the weakened victor to pop out. It's not fun for the guy in the battle to immediately be forced into another battle against a gank squad simply because the guy he killed in the battle gave the location to his friends 2 days sail away. Leaving it hidden at least allows some room for error so that the waiting player/fleet isn't guaranteed the perfect position to intercept anyone who leaves the first battle.

 

Regarding the changes listed, this looks suspiciously like the system Sea Dogs used   which is a good thing in my opinion. More OW traffic, and also prevents the rapid redeployment of ships from one side of the map to another. I can also see this decentralizing ship crafting and commerce centers (currently everything worth anything is in the capital for most nations). I'm a big fan of crew casualties being divided up into wounded/dead, with wounded being available again after the battle and the surgeon/doctor officer. 

 

Also, I second DeRuyter's question. Will surrendering allow us to keep our crew/officers, even though we lose the ship durability? I'd like to see how the player's mind works as the morale system when losing his ship will also mean losing the crew/officers.

 

EDIT: Fixed CTRL-V fail

 

 the original plan was

 

crew is lost on sinking, boarding or explosion

first officer is lost on explosion and change to lose it in boarding

 

with surrender we think it could be a good thing to save your crew and/or officer

[admin]

Lol, instead to simplify the things, you just make it more complicated!

 

I think is pointless to implement such thing without solve others...Just explain me that: so, you are far from your base and cap other player ship in a "fair" fight​; then, no more teleport and you need to go back the entire path to home sailing 2 fat slow ships? And the GANKING friends of your enemy just wait till you pass to just STEAL you BOTH ships?

 

In a possilble perfect enviroment i wish such feature, but NO with currents FLAWS...It will be impraticable and no one will want to cap a ship and expose himself to more risks to get home. To own a 1 dura  ship ​that can cost you both?

 

 

Nelson's fleet as far as i remember lost a lot of ships back to spain during 3-4 days after Trafalgar

There are multiple of other cases where captured ships were recaptured sometimes right the next day.

 

We have sat enough on two chairs. People who want simplicity don't want open world (or just want a rudimentary motorboat version).

But there are two features that must come back because we made a mistake removing them. New players want more immersion and crew provides this. Taking care of the crew becomes a task.

Also ship capture and fleets need to come back and the only good viable playable persistent alternative is to do it with crew. + crew balances things out for captured ships and will provide OW traffic. Persistent crew if done right will be a great thing.

[Crayon]

Continuing the discussion started here

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/13601-19-mln-vs-60-thousand-the-cost-of-crew-moderated/

 

We would like to describe the forthcoming change to the crew system in Naval Action

 

Crew will have to be hired for certain price for the sailor

Crew will be lost if you sink or blow up

Crew will become persistent between battles

Players will be provided with 40 free sailors at the start of the game which cannot be lost (to support new players), this number could go up with rank up to a certain limit

Crew will be available for hire in all ports that you can enter

Crew will have to be assigned to ships that you capture to be able to use them

 

Ships that you capture will have to have crew to be transported back to port

There will be only two options for the ship you capture:

• Add to fleet (assigning crew)
• Sink

Ships will have minimum possible crew - you won't be able to add a ship to fleet or transfer yourself to you if your crew is lower than that ship minimum for sailing

 

Examples of how the system works

 

1) If you captured a Trincomalee in a Constitution you will have to assign crew to Trincomalee and sail back under crewed in both ships. Once you arrive to port you will hire the crew again. 

2) If your group lost a good amount of crew during heavy battle - you become more vulnerable for the next battle

3) You sail a cutter and your friend captures a Santisima for you. If you claim it you will not be able to sail a Santisima if its minimum crew is above 40. You will have to sink her.

 

What this means for you

• This means that fleets could come back, but they will be based on your crew that you can manage and you will actually have to hire that crew paying for them 
• This means that ship capture could come back (with limitations)
• This also means that ships no longer will be teleported to outposts and players will have to get their captures to ports themselves
• This also means that maintenance for heavy ships will go up dramatically as it should be
• This also means that losing a first rate will cost you

Discuss

These changes are good changes, and a step in the right direction. However I have 1 problem with it. My problem with these changes is that crew itself is still expendable. Alot of gold? Oh ok, throw crew and ships at the problem. This still does not solve the problem of throw away ships, and steamroll gameplay. It may make the throwaway more expensive, it also makes steamrolling more expensive. It still does not inspire someone with like 50+ million to really try to save the crew, if crew can simply be translated into x*y amount of gold. We need a time factor here as well, another resource involved other than gold. 

 

I think what we really need, with this change especially, is crew that ranks up. A crew that works better for every battle they win. This could be achievable by assigning morale with a combat multiplier for all aspects of fighting in game now, from boarding mechanics to firing cannons, to how many crew you need to man sailing/cannons/repair etc. Modules will simply enhance the crew's morale multiplier.

 

As well, the longer a crew lives, the more likely others will want to enlist under the captain to be part of the crew. i could see something like this reducing total costs per a set amount of victories earned and the captains' rank, as well as the beginnings of a renown system where all captains would be made aware of... other captains.

[Blackjack McGee]

Crew Management will be an interesting addition and something that will make PVP and PVE both more interesting.  However, I caution the Devs to focus on the issues that are driving the people away from the game rather than fixing things that are not broken.  We have seen that the battle mechanics from a month ago were fine, not perfect but acceptable, and the past month the Devs have had to spend a lot of time fixing the battle mechanics due to the changes.  Let's not have another similar situation with crew mechanics.  I would rather see the big changes, diplomacy, crafting, etc addressed rather than these kinds of tweaks.  I fear that we are losing players too fast and we need the big changes sooner rather than later.

[akd]

Continuing the discussion started here

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/13601-19-mln-vs-60-thousand-the-cost-of-crew-moderated/

 

We would like to describe the forthcoming change to the crew system in Naval Action

 

Crew will have to be hired for certain price for the sailor

Crew will be lost if you sink or blow up

Crew will become persistent between battles

Players will be provided with 40 free sailors at the start of the game which cannot be lost (to support new players), this number could go up with rank up to a certain limit

Crew will be available for hire in all ports that you can enter

Crew will have to be assigned to ships that you capture to be able to use them

 

Ships that you capture will have to have crew to be transported back to port

There will be only two options for the ship you capture:

• Add to fleet (assigning crew)
• Sink

Ships will have minimum possible crew - you won't be able to add a ship to fleet or transfer yourself to you if your crew is lower than that ship minimum for sailing

 

Examples of how the system works

 

1) If you captured a Trincomalee in a Constitution you will have to assign crew to Trincomalee and sail back under crewed in both ships. Once you arrive to port you will hire the crew again. 

2) If your group lost a good amount of crew during heavy battle - you become more vulnerable for the next battle

3) You sail a cutter and your friend captures a Santisima for you. If you claim it you will not be able to sail a Santisima if its minimum crew is above 40. You will have to sink her.

 

What this means for you

• This means that fleets could come back, but they will be based on your crew that you can manage and you will actually have to hire that crew paying for them 
• This means that ship capture could come back (with limitations)
• This also means that ships no longer will be teleported to outposts and players will have to get their captures to ports themselves
• This also means that maintenance for heavy ships will go up dramatically as it should be
• This also means that losing a first rate will cost you

Discuss

 

-reintroducing AI warship capture will in my opinion break the game.  There is no motivation or endgame to economy or RVR if you can capture warships from AI, especially 4th rates and up.  Current system of trader capture from AI plus warship capture from players is both balanced and provides the proper risk vs. reward dynamic, and is one of the few things that provides real rewards to players for engaging in PvP rather than PvE. A first rate is not an appropriate reward for defeating an AI enemy, and defeating the AI will always be relatively easy because they are AI.  Easy acquisition of SoLs is fundamentally game-breaking unless you totally redesign progression, economy and RvR.

 

-for officer loss I would suggest the following:

• 100% loss if ship blows up.  Since this is almost always intentional, it should have an associated sacrifice.
• High chance of loss if ship sinks.  Surrender will need to include protections against surrendering at the last possible moment before sinking / blowing up in order to preserve officers and crew while guaranteeing loss of the ship, but also protections against enemy intentionally sinking ships trying to surrender to force crew / officer loss..  Probably this could be accomplished through a combination of a surrender countdown and a post-surrender pumps, leak repair and firefighting bonus (all of the crew focuses 100% on keeping the ship afloat after surrender).
• Low chance from high crew losses in combat (either in normal combat or boarding).  Need to add surrender (strike colors) option to boarding combat.
• No chance of loss from striking you colors honorably. (Officers are paroled.)