Jump to content
Game-Labs Forum

Crew management update - discussion


Recommended Posts

To me the goals should be:

  1. Open World should be about fleet and ship movements and positioning. Fleets materializing at Free Ports is just an ugly affair.
  2. It should be relatively easy to get into PvP, but it does not have to be easy to play out PvP.
  3. It must not turn into a time sink, where you have to spend your real life hours doing things you don't like. At that point people will simple quit.

For #1 to work we need "Send to outpost" removed, but this will conflict with #2 and #3. So for #2 and #3 we need something to alleviate those pains.

 

Now we already have PvE missions for a grind, which are also totally unrealistic. Or the AI fleets which for some reason are doing their own things. :)

 

I still think having the ability to order about AI captains is the best way to go to satisfy all 3 goals.

 

The way I see this played is as following:

  1. With the help of crafters, traders, logistics and AI you get a couple of ships into the FOB.
  2. First ganking fleet goes out and engages. Losses will be suffered.
  3. Head back to a staging point and either order AI or ask logistics to bring back the first ganking fleet. It can even be 1 escorting player and a couple of AI captains following.
  4. Meanwhile bring out the second ganking fleet and reform.
  5. Rinse and repeat.

A player simply becomes an "Agent Smith" avatar. Being able to teleport to any asset. And thus having the ability to be where the action is without wasting real life hours. IMO it would not deter anything from the realism of battle, nor the strategic aspect of OW.

 

PS. Buffing the offenders looks to me like a bad move. :P

Edited by Skully
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I'm not so sure you want a simulation mmo because by the very nature of what those two genres mean NA will be an epic financial failure. You will never get enough of a population to achieve the first "M". Beyond that though this is not even close to a "simulator". People like to pick and choose what they consider realistic and what they don't. Real captains didn't build ships or decide whom they were at war with...pirates didn't sail around in SOL's...naval officers didn't haul cargo around in their trader ship they kept at the dock....a port battle for some backwater Caribbean port never included 50 1st and 2nd rates. I've read through these posts and I simply see zero benefit to the crew loss mechanic outside of what it would bring to a PVE game. If that is what is to become the new focus of NA then it might be a very good idea....I won't disparage it if that is in fact what the devs shift the focus to....it just won't be for me is all. 

You are correct. Maybe the term "simulation" is a bit too strong in relation to NA.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Instead of teleporting ships to outpost, it should simply be possible to send them there.

The ship sails in OW to his destination.

You have to give a crew to the ship you send and as long as it is on the way you lack this crew.

You can send it directly out of your outpost or from OW if you just captured it.

 

For example you send 250 men on a frigate from 1100 max. you only have 850 left to sail a ship yourself.

 

If you have a 5 dura-ship and you send it from outpost A to B and it gets sunk or captured, you will lose 1 dura and the 4 left still be in port A.

If it arrives at B all 5 dura are at B.

 

If it does some damage to the attacker you get rewarded by XP and gold.

You can decide if you send it with a minimum crew, max crew or something inbetween.

 

 

So sending a ship is risky. You might not want to do that with a full trader or a SoL over dangerous waters. But maybe between some save ports on a relatively save route.

 

But for sending an emtpy traders or shallow or medium water ships  this is a good option to save time and prevent boring sailing.

It adds traffic to the OW and we can get the rid of teleporting ships.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Instead of teleporting ships to outpost, it should simply be possible to send them there.

The ship sails in OW to his destination.

You have to give a crew to the ship you send and as long as it is on the way you lack this crew.

You can send it directly out of your outpost or from OW if you just captured it.

 

For example you send 250 men on a frigate from 1100 max. you only have 850 left to sail a ship yourself.

 

If you have a 5 dura-ship and you send it from outpost A to B and it gets sunk or captured, you will lose 1 dura and the 4 left still be in port A.

If it arrives at B all 5 dura are at B.

 

If it does some damage to the attacker you get rewarded by XP and gold.

You can decide if you send it with a minimum crew, max crew or something inbetween.

 

 

So sending a ship is risky. You might not want to do that with a full trader or a SoL over dangerous waters. But maybe between some save ports on a relatively save route.

 

But for sending an emtpy traders or shallow or medium water ships  this is a good option to save time and prevent boring sailing.

It adds traffic to the OW and we can get the rid of teleporting ships.

 

I agree, but lets do this without cargo. Otherwise I would just buy 5x trader lynx and let the AI transport the goods for me decently safe. Furthermore, if I would lose one its only 800 cargo, so I can easily spread cargo to avoid heavy losses.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why not to try and re-implement some features that are presented in Age of Pirates game franchise?

For example:

 

CREW.

New players receive crew for cutters for free. As player ranks up,he keeps that free minimum but he needs to hire more crew to stay efficient. There are two ways from here: Once you hire a crew its a lifetime crew (as admin said) OR hire crew and every 30 in-game days you pay a small salary for the crew. Either of the option should bring more management to a players ship but also it shouldnt become a grind-to-have-crew simulator.

 

SHIPS CAPTURE

I think it is realistic and it was also used in Age of Pirates. You have a brig. Minimum to sail it is 40 people (for example). You have 120 crew on board. You go and capture another brig and you should have 3 options here: 1) You capture brig. Assign minimum crew to it and you both sail to a port. 2) You sink ship. 3) You can loot/demand ransom for this ship and leave it be. What kind of loot I am talking about? GOLD of course! It depends on a size and type of a ship. Trade ship can have gold and some resources. Military ship can have only gold.

 

PVP

Yes, PVP will be affected by all this. But isnt it a life of danger? To sail and raid people or be raided.

 

Also, I have two suggestions:

1) Caravans. Can we have trade caravans that sail from one port to another. Let's say there are two types of caravans: Guild/Trade company caravans and Government/Official caravans. First type has from one to three trade ships and low-to medium chance of a security/military escort ship.

Second type (Government/Official) Has at least 3 trade ships and at least 1-2 security/military escort ships.

 

I think this idea will encourage people to group up together and sail, look and explore for trade routes and plunder enemy caravans.

For example, I am Britain and I just attacked with my friend a small caravan. We captured trade ships, we plundered them. Once we return to port, we will have to pay a small fee. (You know, that kind of contract that privateers had before. They plunder enemy ships of England and England has prestige/small income while players are motivated to go plunder). 

 

What I am trying to say is that players need some variety to do. I know it is Alpha. I know it has a great future. and I know there are huge plans. But at this stage, we need some variety. also, it is alpha! It is exactly this time when you can implement new ideas and experiment, experiment, experiment. (Like Admin said before) :) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What this means for you

  • This means that fleets could come back, but they will be based on your crew that you can manage and you will actually have to hire that crew paying for them 
  • This means that ship capture could come back (with limitations)
  • This also means that ships no longer will be teleported to outposts and players will have to get their captures to ports themselves
  • This also means that maintenance for heavy ships will go up dramatically as it should be
  • This also means that losing a first rate will cost you

Discuss

I like most of the features, however, requiring us to sail with no tele option might be a bit much, especially for those of use who actually do travel long distances. Might I suggest the tele option still, and simply taking that minimum required crew to sail it from our current ship, or the ship we choose to take over.

I mean, when we cap traders, practically there should be no loss and should not require us to sail both ships back to port. Simply send one ship back with part of your main crew.

I can see in the future both ships from battle appearing in OW and allowing other players to attack either ship. That'd be cool.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Suggestion:

 

Crew losses are permanent; if a crew member dies in battle, they're gone. And not just when your ship is sunk or captured. HOWEVER, the crew numbers in the OW will never drop below the minimum needed to sail, while you are still in command of your ship. Eg; you need 40 to sail, but you have only 20 left by the end of your victorious fight; when you pop out into open world, you find that the crew has gone up to 40. This will be because crew losses in battle are not necessarily deaths; they're incapacitated, either through injury or death. When the battle ends, if your ship is still afloat and in your hands, you'll get a percentage of your "dead" crew returned, based on how brutal the fight was and how competent your ship's surgeon is (which could and should be something you can upgrade). And the number returned will always be at least enough to bring you back over the minimum sailing limit.

 

Crews surrender FAR earlier in boarding; it seems insane to me that a crew would fight to the last man when they're outnumbered three to one.

 

Captured crew can be pressed into your crew. Out doing PVP deep in enemy territory and find yourself low on crew? Go capture a trader or two and replenish your numbers.

Edited by Musuko42
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Suggestion:

Crew losses are permanent; if a crew member dies in battle, they're gone. And not just when your ship is sunk or captured. HOWEVER, the crew numbers in the OW will never drop below the minimum needed to sail, while you are still in command of your ship. Eg; you need 40 to sail, but you have only 20 left by the end of your victorious fight; when you pop out into open world, you find that the crew has gone up to 40. This will be because crew losses in battle are not necessarily deaths; they're incapacitated, either through injury or death. When the battle ends, if your ship is still afloat and in your hands, you'll get a percentage of your "dead" crew returned, based on how brutal the fight was and how competent your ship's surgeon is (which could and should be something you can upgrade). And the number returned will always be at least enough to bring you back over the minimum sailing limit.

Crews surrender FAR earlier in boarding; it seems insane to me that a crew would fight to the last man when they're outnumbered three to one.

Captured crew can be pressed into your crew. Out doing PVP deep in enemy territory and find yourself low on crew? Go capture a trader or two and replenish your numbers.

I have to second this. It's totally unrealistic that the NPC ships fight to the death. It didn't really matter as the crew replenished at the end of the battle. But this mechanic may need some looking into. 22 merchantmen on a Traders cutter fighting to the death against a 120 man Brig over 60 Pine logs? Really? Edited by Bach
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[cut]

 

No one is messing with the game. But surely it messes with some players Comfort. Time to adapt.

 

Same thing happened last big patch. Traders had to adapt. No more cargo teleport. Now it is time for the "troopers" to adapt.

 

So, if I understand correctly, in the case of Naval Action it's the game that is alpha testing the players (who SHALL adapt to any proposed change in the game instead of commenting on it in case they do not like).

 

I must confess that it's an intriguing view, indeed (yet probably rather discordant with the meaning of "alpha testing" I am used to).

 

Well, then be it (and let time tell us how many players will survive this "reverse alpha test").

Edited by victor
Link to comment
Share on other sites

One thing i don't understand well: will we have 1 crew total we can insta teleport from port to port or we will have to hire crew in each outpost where we want to move ships.

 

 

In my opinion, this needs some more side changes to remain playable:

 

 

- Crew should loose more morale (pvp or pve) and not fighting to death like now, maybe it should even loose some morale even if no boarding occurs (fire, leaks, captain dead, demast, massive loss in a short period of time.) This could result in your ship surrendering or routing.

 

- Captured ship should keep his surviving crew on board, at least until the ship reach a port.  If you capture a ship, you can send some of your crew to complete the captured ship crew, from now, the captured ship will follow you until you reach a port. If you get in battle before that, you loose your captured ship and the initial owner regain 1 dura + surviving crew.

 

- Only a % of crew loss in battle should be dead when returning in OW representing injured sailors.

 

-You should be able to place contracts to convoy your ships from a port to another, the contracts could be fullfiled by ai (takes time depending on distance, an ai ship do the travel, convoy auto succes even if the ai is sunk or capptured, cost good money) if ai convoy is too expensive for you, you can make or read other players offers (like in the market) to allow another player to do the mission. These contracts could work for warships or traders.

 

- Surrendering, as a deliberate action  (only possible if not sinking or fire shock) or a result of a battle (capture) should allow you to pay a ransom from your capital to get your dura and/or your crew back (fixed price) you keep your upgrades. The player who captured your ship can still keep the ship and receive the extra gold.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 the original plan was

 

crew is lost on sinking, boarding or explosion

first officer is lost on explosion and change to lose it in boarding

 

with surrender we think it could be a good thing to save your crew and/or officer

 

 

Does this mean if you strike your colours you can retain your crew?  

 

 

See admin answer above ^^

Link to comment
Share on other sites

some will be abandoned some will be reworked

battle losses should result in kills/casualties. casualties could recover after battle automatically

 

 

I would personally prefer to see more categories of moral state in the fight.

 

Killed -  Pretty obvious.

Wounded - Can be recovered/restored with medical

Shocked -  As in crew shock events. Severe temporary moral debuf with permanent lesser moral debuf.

Demoralized - Crew that are treated as dead because they are cowards hiding behind stuff and screaming.

 

Being on a trade ship of 66 getting boarded by a ship of 240 should pretty much demoralize a crew, or at least add a multiplier to the demoralizing effects of loss.

 

Say for example

 

1+(Higher crew - (2 X Lower crew))/lower crew=effect of one loss multiplier.  

1+((240-132)/66)=2.6 

 

So for every loss you lose 2.6 moral vs 1 in an even fight.

 

I would not mind if the old "send to outpost" still worked, was required to travel to closest out post, took at least the minimum crew with it as a prize crew, left that crew at the outpost until gathered, and turned into an AI ship that actually had to make it to port.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a question.

 

Will we be able to stock pile crew?

 

Will we be able to hire more crew than we can command, so if we lose crew we know we can go and get more from our stock pile at home port?

 

What will happen if all crew have been sold out at ports, or will this be an always available, every where resource with scarcity only being put into play while we are at sea after battles?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Maybe there should be an option that you can send your ship to another port by crewing it and setting a destination. The Ship then sails there like the AI Fleets we have right now, being attackable for other players and acting like any NPC ship.

 

 

+1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your fleet is in a battle.

 

You lose most of your men, and wont be able to sail your own ship back.  I think your fleet members should be allowed to give you more men.

 

If you cap a ship in a fleet, but none can sail it back.  The same thing, it would be nice if you could crew it together.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I understand the people that dislike the "taxi-service" that was created with the smuggler option. It is however convenient in not getting a feeling of wasting time and it adds to a friendlier/better user experience in my eyes.

 

I have a compromise to suggest:

 

Just allow ship deliveries only between freeports just like goods, but add the Nation's capitol as an exception to it. Make sure it takes a fee and time just like the goods delivery system. This ought to be a fair compromise between those that want only sailing and those that want shorter distances. Freeports are more or less regional hubs already for a lot of players.

 

If you like some variation you could use the occupied regional capitals instead of the freeports for the ship deliveries to give those cities on the map more meaning and leave the goods delivery system to the freeports as trading loves freeports. Using the regional capitals over the freeports would have my preference, but that is a matter of taste I think.

Edited by Lytse Pier
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Reading most of the posts here it seems that the biggest possible drawback of adding persistent crew is that we would have to visit a port after almost every battle. And it is understandable.

But I haven't yet seen anyone trying to find solutions for this other that "leave things as they are". And there are multiple possible solutions:

 

1st. Instead of just killing men, a significant part of men would get wounded. They won't be able to operate the ship during battle but can be healed after it, during a certain amount of time. Sure, it won't be 100% realistic (we'd have to wait weeks to get the crew back to shape) but IMHO it's still better then killing ALL men.

 

2nd. Surrender mechanics. After battle you could press some of captured men to refill your ranks. If it's a PVP engagement the player that lost could still keep his men after surrendering (for gameplay's sake).

In PVE enemy, especially traders should strike their colours not only during boarding but even when they can't win. Let's say for example that you demast a trader and have 2x his man. Or you fight another man-of-war and take out most of his armour (to the point when your single broadside will kill him). In both of these situations AI should strike their colours.

As with PVP, I guess most of us will take the opportunity to at least save our crew when we've no chance of surviving a battle (BTW we could also have a surrender button on boarding window).

 

3rd. Giving real value to the crew. For ex. by adding experience. That would give another reason for losing player to surrender saving both his and some of your crew.

 

Just a few examples that came to my head, I'm sure there's more.

 

There is one thing however, that I would change, however and it is the fact that you personally need to escort the ship into harbour. I'm sure that RL captains only escorted the most precious prizes.

So instead of choosing between "is the ship worthy to take it back or should I sink it" we'd have actually 3 choices:

- sink the ship

- assign some of the men to the prize and escort it into port

- assign minimal amount of your men to it and order them to sail to port on their own at even greater risk of it being recaptured.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are two issues that need to balance. Well more than two. But I mean just with ship teleportations.

Speed with which a player can get into PVP. Teleporting ships helps this. However, it also means ships spend less time at sea in transit and need only move in prepared attack groups. This results in less likely hunting style pvp as it favors group pvp more.

Ship available to be hunted at sea. Merchant ships, ships in transition to duty stations, mission runners or explorers. These are the ships that give the lone pirate or privateer something to do in the game besides joining the large RvR groups. For this style of pvp to thrive there has to be players moving ships at sea. The forums are filled with players wanting quicker travel, shorter distances to missions and cargo teleports. But if we get all that what happens? We teleport our hunting ships to the enemy coast only to find there are no ships there to hunt for all the same good reason that got our ship there fast. The enemy just smuggler teleported his ships to future battles. The mission runners just teleported to out of the way areas of the map and teleport their booty back. The merchants just set up free towns and once per day teleport all their good back to the capital. So we move fast but there are much less ships at sea.

There has to be a balance between the two. If we want to be able to hunt targets we all have to be willing to be that target for someone else from time to time. I'm not sure what the middle ground is. But we are currently testing unlimited teleports and its seems right to test zero teleports and see what the real deal should be.

Edited by Bach
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

- sink the ship

- assign some of the men to the prize and escort it into port

- assign minimal amount of your men to it and order them to sail to port on their own at even greater risk of it being recaptured.

 

This is exactly the kind of choice I like to see in games; various options, with different risks and rewards. This is the very essence of gameplay.

 

I'd love to see this choice be in the game.

 

You could add an additional option; towing. You can place a captured ship under tow, with no crew onboard. This would allow you to take home a captured ship even if you don't have enough men to put a prize crew onboard. You would travel slower on the open world (depending on the size of your ship, and the size of the ship you're towing), and if you get attacked the prize would be cut loose and sit unmanned and adrift in the battle.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Before any more time sinks, put in quality of life improvements. 

 

Land is battles was really cool but its been all downhill since then, and the new tagging/reinforcement junk kind of spoiled the good from land in battles. 

 

Anyway before a garbage time sink like making people sail ships everywhere all the time, at least try to find the time to make quality of life improvements. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So let's assume that you capture a ship, and the morale and boarding mechanics have changed so that ships surrender with far more survivable crew, which is far more realistic.

 

So a Rank/Level 4 with the ability to crew 150.

Your using a Niagara at 155 limit.

 

You capture a trade ship, say a snow, with a full crew of 80.

You killed 20 of them, and lost 20 of yours, and they surrendered because you had greater than 2/1 odds against them, which seems pretty reasonable. 

 

You have 130 crew left, plus the 60 from the Snow for a total of 190.

 

If you want to sink the enemy ship, what happens to the 40 surplus?

 

If you want to have the ship join your fleet, do you get to designate 150+40 for a total of 190 crew and above your crew limit of 150?

 

My proposal.

 

Perhaps now we can have a higher level limit that what is currently assigned for full crew of one ship.  

Perhaps now our leveling can be around total crew on all ships you command and have active.

Perhaps the crew cap could be raised.

Perhaps leveling does not need to be so directly tied to ship rates, but instead a more steady crew limitation progression, that is far less steep and arbitrary. 

 

Right now its +40,  +20, +60, +30, +50, +50, +100, +300, +250, +300.

 

Perhaps a more stable +40/level increase, to a total cap of 2000 for a total of 50 levels (same as crafting) with rank titles coming every 5 levels. That would have a much less steep curve on some of the progressions.  

This way as you move into a new ship range, you have to decide if you want to leave extra crew room for capture/fleet use.

 

Obviously to match the promise of the Steam release of no XP loss, current capped players would be set to level 28, or whatever their current crew limit level happened to be, rounded up to the nearest 40.

 

What does this solve?  It solves the issue of over crew limits.

 

If you were in the scenario above, the captured ship would have to be released, or sunk, with the remainder crew being turned into a cargo of "prisoner".

If you were a  level higher, you could assign a prize crew without being high enough to fully crew the next ship up.

If you are even higher, you can assign even more prize crews, to either join your fleet or sail to home, or whatever the mechanic ends up being.

With an AI sail home mechanic, you would be limited by ships still on the sea.  So if you did try to get them to go across the ocean, well then you would have used your crew cap for that length of time, limiting further capture opportunity.

 

Want some traders moving about in the world, that will restrict your ability to sail combat ships, until you get high enough to do both at the same time.

 

The way I see it, the original leveling system was entirely based around the limited first run of ships they had available. 1 rate/level.  Now that there are more ships with a variety of crew limits at each level, it only makes sense to re-visit the original leveling plan.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you want to sink the enemy ship, what happens to the 40 surplus?

 

Put to sea in boats and left to fend for themselves. Or, if there are too many crew for that...something unpleasant happens to them.

 

Or, they can be carried in your hold as prisoners, until returned to port, where they can be pressed or ransomed.

 

Actually, having the option to free, press, ransom, or execute prisoners, would be interesting...especially your choices had effects. Maybe you could have a "reputation" in game, along with the appropriate honorifics. If I'm nice to prisoners, I might become known as the "Honorable Captain Musuko", and enemy crews may be more likely to surrender to me, knowing they will get better treatment (mechanic of this would be a morale penalty for the enemy). If I slaughter them, I might be the "Dread Captain Musuko", and enemy crews might fight to the last, knowing they'll get no mercy.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...