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What beats the USS constitution?


Destraex

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The biggest advantage the US Navy had in those days:

No need for pressgangs. All them patriotic men were 100% volunteers.

And exellent ships to start with once they built their frigates. (bevore that they only had some coastal duty brigs)

Volunteers are so much easier to train that pressed men.

Maybe thats a possible gamefeature?

I dont know.

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I've always said that the inherent motivations of crew members would be the single greatest factor in morale and hence the willingness to take casualties without surrendering.

Not to mention, bonuses for volunteer crew would help balance the weaker vessels like privateers and pirates.

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In regards to the game I would be quite unhappy to see everyone bumming around in constitutions because it wouldn't reflect the period well at all and as Destraex mentioned in the OP they would certainly be a match for all but the heaviest ships especially if it is capable of the same speed as a lighter frigate.

 

I have to agree it would definitely kill the fun if everyone out there used the USS constitution.

 

The wiki does say that it was very expensive to build and they had to find a lot of special types of materials for the ship so maybe the price can be a little high eh? Maybe more expensive than those Razees Destraex mentioned. Either way I'm sure they'll find a balance. ;)

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If HMS Endymion is in this game to counter the USS Constitution I would be happy enough. Although smaller British warships did initially have success when engaging the Constitution. Guerriere had defective masts and Java was very unlucky to have her jib-boom shot away as she had been in control of the battle prior to that point. I believe that although it may be difficult you would be able to overcome the Constitution in game with lesser ships as generally the ships in game won't have defective masts, although there is the opportunity to have your jib-boom shot away which could obviously be a critical factor in any fight. I highly suggest for anyone to read "The Challenge". It is written by Andrew Lambert who is well known in terms of Naval History and its primary focus is the Naval War of 1812. 

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Wow the captain of the Leander killed himself because he could not capture an American Super Frigate before the treaty was signed after being heavily criticized for not doing so in 

It seems chase was being given when the treaty was signed.

 

"Collier continued to cruise in the area, capturing the USS Rattlesnake[10] on 22 June 1814, but before he had another opportunity to pursue the Constitution, news reached him that the Treaty of Ghent had been signed and that the war was over.[7]"

 

"Collier's failure to capture the Constitution was heavily criticised by naval historian William James in his 1823 Naval History. Collier tried to clear his name by asking for a court-martial, but being denied, killed himself on 24 March 1824.[7]"

 

 

I do hope we get the Leander and Newcastle in game. That should even things up a bit.

Does anybody have plans or pictures of these vessels?

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Can I recommend a book called Six Frigates by Ian W. Toll   it is the story of the Constitution and her sisters and is brilliantly written including details of her construction etc.........I am having difficulty copying and pasting URLs for some reason or I would post one, but it is available on Amazon.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Side by side, in testing, the 2 decker looks like a short chubby middle aged lady next to the long lean Constitution. I wonder how good the super frigates were at turning?

 

thats what we want to find out

 

current thinking is this - it is heavy, long - so slow acceleration and slow deceleration - but extremely fast. But with turning we need to do more research.

Some people say that we need to increase turning for most ships in game as in reality they were more nimble.. (especially looking at the Constitution vs Java battle chart). 

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Some people say that we need to increase turning for most ships in game as in reality they were more nimble.. (especially looking at the Constitution vs Java battle chart).

Hold on now. Those sorts of charts are seldom to scale and often involve significant passage of time.

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Can I refer you to my post above about the Constitution and the book Six Frigates..... IIRC there is some good information there about her performance. When I get the chance at home (shhhhhhh..I am at work atm) I'll have alook and see if I can find something in there for you.

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Six Frigates was an awesome book, but tt's been some time since I've read it. I recall that Live Oak was very hard to harvest and only found in North America. That means that everyone, realistically, should not be able to own one. The only problem is that everyone who loves wooden war ships is going to want to sail and fight in Constie. I know that I sure do. Hell, I want to sail them all. What to do...What to do?

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Six Frigates was an awesome book, but tt's been some time since I've read it. I recall that Live Oak was very hard to harvest and only found in North America. That means that everyone, realistically, should not be able to own one. The only problem is that everyone who loves wooden war ships is going to want to sail and fight in Constie. I know that I sure do. Hell, I want to sail them all. What to do...What to do?

 

It will probably be at a disadvantage if it truly is bad at turning due to the long hull. I would probably enjoy a basic frigate like the HMS Surprise more.

 

Besides it looks like a tub in my opinion. :lol:

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The book is an objective view written about 8 years ago iirc and take no particular stance at all, it simply describes the circumstances surrounding and leading to the building of the Constitution and her sister ships,  the design and build process and the effect they had on Anglo American "relations" during the War of 1812.

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Six Frigates talks of the politics involved in getting ships in the water for the practically non-existant U.S. Navy and the political and social ramifications of the U,S. Navy having those ships. The War of 1812 was pretty much lost to the young United States untill the British citizenry learned of their defeats at sea and on the Great Lakes. They were sick of war and Briton still had Bonparte to deal with so peace with the U.S. was called for. It also delves deeply into the design and on and off construction of the ships. Beffore I read that book I had little idea of what went in to the building of a wooden war ship. I learned that J. Humphreys was a genius, the oak and live oak that grew on our contenant was REALLY good wood, and that the man, Pres. John Adams, was forward thinking and knew that for survival, a strong navy is a must. It is a very good read.

 

I have stated on these forums that Constie was the greatest wooden war ship ever built and I say so because of that book and others on the subject. She still swims and still sails. The hull is not hogging thanks to the diagional riders which were removed in the early 20th century but replaced in I believe the 1980's because she was hogging, and that inovation went in to making her deserve her nick name, Old Iron Sides. I love other ships from the age of sail. Victory not only had a lot of guns, but I have read that she had great sailing qualities. The replicas of L'Hermione and Rose(now Surprise) are ships to admire simply because they exist in our time. The British frigates, the French frigates, the British 74"s. I'd love to see and sail in any one of these.

 

Sorry to go on so much but the "historian" comments got me riled a bit. Just because I am from the U.S. does not mean to me that if it's not ours it's crap. Being an american author and historian does not mean biased. Six Frigates was simply a good story that the author wanted to tell. I have not read any of Gingrich's books, but I have heard some of his conclusions and feel that his theories, at least on the death of General Patton could have some merrit. Don't dissmiss someone just because they are from the U.S.. However, if you think that someone is a right wing looney from just what you see on T.V., and that he is not a "real" historian, that is your jumped to conclusion, but unless you've read him, and made your own conclusions, you have no right to judge. These forums should not be political.

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Matt, can I call you Matt?
I have to agree with you. I think that I would prefere a smaller and more agile frigate. Since I have never sailed a real ship and have to temper my experience with games that I have played and books that I have read, I shall have to conclude that a smaller ship,
say a 32 or 36 would be more fun. I am really excited about the Trincomalee frigate. If I got it right, she was a 30 with 14 smashers. Hopefully she'll turn on a dime. :P

 

Answering OTMatt. Clicked on the quote button so this is only if that don't appear. Forums are, to me, like email and I kinda hate email. I really hate to type. I do like to write so I gotta live with the evil keyboard. See that one sentance got fraked up and I can't fix it.

 

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???? What does that mean? It was written by a historian.

 

I was simply asking the question. It was a question not as statement as I am not familiar with the author.

I try to read books that are written by authors that are from both sides of any conflict and where possible neutral. Historian or not

I have read far too many books that clearly have a patriotic leaning and maternal feeling towards the subject matter. Patton in fact 

is one of the worst for nationalistic fervour in authors.

 

Sure somebody who comes from the same country can be impartial but often you just have to make sure you are aware a grain of salt may be needed even

with a historian. People are people. Historian or not.

 

But don't get me wrong. I was not judging just asking.

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Apologies for my slight tirade. I guess that I was in a mood. I do highly recommend Six Frigates. As for historical books, the writing has gotten much better and much more engaging. As a junior high student I read a book on the crusades that about killed me. Many of the writers now are so good. I read a book on the naval war of 1812. For the life of me, I can't remember the title or the author. I will try find out for everyone but I need to go to the library to find it. I will try to do so. It spoke of the war from the U.S. side, warts and all. It may take me a few days to find it.

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