Forthcoming hot fixes next week - ships of the line penetration discussion

[admin]

Captains

 

remember

To find the perfect damage model we must conduct experiments.

Even if you already love the damage model there might be changes that need to be tested that you personally won't like - but they will allow to close some doors to never be reopened again. Such experiments are needed and you should not react negatively when they are tested. They are good for the game because sometimes they will help to uncover interesting options we could miss if we did not do it. We promise - the closer we are to release the less experiments like that we will do - but now its a perfect time to continue experimenting)

 

You can always say in the future - we tested them and they are not fun. But sometimes we can find something very interesting because of such experiments.

 

We have tested very tankier ships of the line and the result is obvious - battles are much longer in ships of the line and on average they are tediously long which is not a good thing. Raking is not yet a viable alternative for disabling the ships. Gun loss is a lot better now but crew losses sometimes feel inadequate even if you did a perfect rake.  

 

Regarding ships of the line armor. 

We have found the solution that will allow to keep medium frigate combat (that people say are fun) and increase the fun factor on ships of the line

 

We plan to do the following changes next hot fix (again changes will be slow and gradual)

• Tune medium and heavy gun penetrations (increase them a bit for 9 and 12 and reduce it for 32 and 42 as they are too strong for lower lineship armors)
• Tune armors for ship accordingly (reduce armor and reduce live oak bonuses a bit)
• Tweak mast hp and strength (i think we have found the sweet spot over last 2 fixes) it was too high in 9.8 and too low in 9.82
• Tweak raking crew losses 
• Tweak marines strength and preparation growth

Sanity check questions

1. Do you consider frigate battles fun (compared to older versions)?
2. Do you consider ships of the line indecisive historical battles fun?
3. Should marines be tweaked?

What else did we miss?

 

 

advanced warning:

there are 2 things that might change dramatically in the next content patch that are long overdue (ETA 20-25 days)

• fixes of bugs and improvement of old acceleration and deceleration behavior of vessels
• fixes of turning, terminal speed and rudder influence on speed. 

[LeBoiteux]

1. Yes !!! Current frigate battles are funnier than previous ones.

2. 3. Not tested.

 

Shouldn't Brig/Rattlesnake armors be a bit increased to match frigates' a bit ?

[HarryButpain]

May I recommend to call future patches which mostly experiment with things "experimental patches" so that we can give angry people on the forum and steam a heads up when they overreact? 

[EricKilla]

Looks good, can't wait to test it.

[Horror]

Tweaks are welcomed always.

May want to fully declare where you want ships in the 'food chain' or role so people don't whine when their favorite ship gets nerfed relative to what they see as its equal.

Definitely happy with the current model and direction.

Don't let the bastards get you down, you have a great game here.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Horror

[Lytse Pier]

 

1. Do you consider frigate battles fun (compared to older versions)?
2. Do you consider ships of the line indecisive historical battles fun?
3. Should marines be tweaked?

 

 

1. Frigate battles are always fun! Cannot say they became more fun though. They are fun now in a different kind of way.

2. I don't know what you mean, but how closer a battle, the more satisfied I was with the result, whether we lost or won.

3. We need more retired marines.  

Edited May 29, 2016 by Lytse Pier

[Neptune]

Sounds great, I would like to see a bit shorter battles. At the moment SOL battles take too long, frigates are quite nice at the moment.

 

Also, I think Marines should be made craftable. Remove some of the grind, It's kind of not fair for those who don't spend have a lot of time to farm AI and now with closer range combat they are almost a necessity since a lot of the combat ends up in boarding now with closer range combat.

[Musuko42]

Do you consider frigate battles fun (compared to older versions)?

 

I enjoy frigate battles in general now compared to the older versions; the outcome seems to hinge more on who has the better tactics and maneuvers, and you get more time to fight it out, and the ships feel more weighty and powerful as they duke it out.

 

Do you consider ships of the line indecisive historical battles fun?

 

I feel that ships of the line shouldn't sink too often; I want them to feel big and tough. I think their rears should be more vulnerable to raking fire from smaller ships, so a skilled frigate Captain could be a match for a SoL. Additionally, if non-penetrating hits still wore away at armour, allowing for penetration once it becomes weaker, that could be good. At the moment, it seems, certain cannon classes simply cannot penetrate.

 

Should marines be tweaked?

 

Once you introduce crew recruitment and management, marines could be rare/expensive crew that you can hire, in differing amounts, rather than modules.

[Cpt Blackthorne]

May I recommend to call future patches which mostly experiment with things "experimental patches" so that we can give angry people on the forum and steam a heads up when they overreact? 

OH SNAP! yes please!

[Fluffy Fishy]

1) I like frigate battles more since the last update, they feel tense but sturdy at the same time, its a good balance.

2) Indecisive battles are fun if they have tension and you are tested in skill but not when they drag on for too long and lose their effect.

3) I can't say without some suggestions to what the tweaking would be, I feel like marines should be able to take part in basic tasks like bailing water and putting out fires but not with gunnery, carpentry (fixing leaks) and sailing.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Fluffy Fishy

[Fellvred]

I've really enjoyed the slower pace to frigate combat with the essence being on positioning and manoeuvre as it should be

 

Personally I've always thought marines and boarding mods to be massively overpowered compared to the 'gunnery' mods. While a good player with marines + boarding mods can still do a decent job in open combat, if a player without marines is caught (by someone who has boarding mods) and boarded it's pretty much game over. With ramming damage now no longer an issue it's much too easy for a ship to get in a position to board (obviously a player can avoid it with decent positioning/sail dmg etc but it just feels too much like an instant win button sometimes)

.

Perhaps a buff to/introduce some more anti-boarding mods - which could negate some of the bonuses from marines etc but make the ship very weak against regular shot.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Fellvred

[Dius]

I haven't started up Naval Action since the 24th May, due to the ongoing penetration "experimenting".

 

I hope the hot fix helps...

[Hussar]

1. Frigate Battles are currently in great shape 

[BallsOfSteel]

1. Do you consider frigate battles fun (compared to older versions)? Better though the Xp obviously not that good

Do you consider ships of the line indecisive historical battles fun? No

Should marines be tweaked? Marine definitely need tweaking, the higher Fine, Mastercraft and Exceptional also should play a role in crewing the guns whilst not boarding as in real life. Say 50% are on gun crew as well allowing for the other 50% to be good to go for boarding or having the ability to start and stop boarding prep if you have marines by double tapping the 9 key to allow to to set what boarding prep you want and the amount you want on guns.

 

Many of us have been grinding for so long under this reiteration and really dont know If i can do it again when the server wipe eventually comes, unless we get at least one of each class of ship and gold on reset I cannot see many starting over again. 

[Musuko42]

I haven't started up Naval Action since the 24th May, due to the ongoing penetration "experimenting".

 

Well you're not a very good tester then, are you?

 

Maybe you should wait for the completed release of the game?

Edited May 29, 2016 by Musuko42

[mikawa]

I had a good experience fighting in a frigate vs. a player trinco. However I am quite unsure about bigger ships vs. smaller ones. I think it's too hard to make any damage at all. Over all, the gains of XP and gold are too small. Please adjust this.

[TateB]

1. Yes I have been enjoying frigate battles and have been mainly sailing a connie and below.
2. Im not sure about SOL vs SOL as I don't like sailing them very much, but a constitution vs a SOL is very good. I can't sit 1k away and blast a bellona until he dies I actually need to get into 200m to pen him and rake him.
3. Yes I think that lowering the bonus they get to boarding but have a small percentage help with guns/sails. 

I haven't had many problems penning anything in a reasonable range in the last few patches sailing a connie(24L/42C) and I like the steps being taken to bring more realism into the game.

[Prorok]

Sanity check questions

1. Do you consider frigate battles fun (compared to older versions)? - yes
2. Do you consider ships of the line indecisive historical battles fun? - no
3. Should marines be tweaked? - yes
4. ps. Turn off durability for all ships

Edited May 29, 2016 by Prorok

[Manta Scorpion]

1. Do you consider frigate battles fun (compared to older versions)?Not more no, with the new model it is nearly impossible to fight against stronger fleets, the brawl always favors the team with more guns. There should be less bouncing also from less ideal agles (not if they are very stupid but a bit not stright should be ok)

Do you consider ships of the line indecisive historical battles fun? Not really, its boring in a game, frigates are more dynamic

Should marines be tweaked? They should be made craftable, if everyone has the same odds its fine. (in fact every upgrade should be)

[saintjacktar]

Dear Devs,

Im thouroughly enjoying Frigate battles with the new model in comparison to the old model. The survivablity of your ship in conjuction with reduced damage output from smaller Lb longs/mediums makes for great gameplay, In that it requires your opponent to find optimal posistioning in order to achieve maximum penetration value per battery fired. I do also believe that marines do require a "tweak", thier impact in boardings (especially exceptional ) is far to great. Addtionally I find that the "higher the quality the more crew slots the take up" model to be too much of a burden. I believe that the quality of the Marine module should represent a "better" trained Marine contingent rather than a more numerous one. With more stat based benifit rather than manpower benifit. Just my thoughts.

Kind regards

Captain saintjacktar

USS BANSHEE

Australian Flotilla

Tattered Flags

United States

[Strugelwits]

Can't wait!

[Eldberg]

Honestly, frigate/heavy frigate ship battles are much more fun at the moment than that with ship of the line battles. The sluggish slow moving behemoths can be fun to sail at times, but really the speed/turning/reload is just too slow to make it enjoyable. Besides, I am in love with my Constitution at the moment, I've been taking on 1st and 2nd rates solo and capturing relatively easily after a few stern rakes.

Stern-rakes are a little underwhelming at the moment, the damage caused to crew needs to at the very least be doubled. Cannonballs and grape ripping down the length of a ships deck would turn the inside of any ship in to a blood and guts smoothie.

[Bulwyf]

1. 1. Do you consider frigate battles fun (compared to older versions)?

     There fun but not a huge change from what they were previously.

1. 2.  Do you consider ships of the line indecisive historical battles fun?

     Yes, but ships of the line are weak vs Constitutions which are massively overpowered at the moment. Constitution gave my Pavel a hard time in a straight out slug fest with my        guns fixed so max penetration. I got no penetration from top two decks and only a proportion of the second deck up. Only deck to reliably punch through the constitution was          the bottom deck.

 

3.  Should marines be tweaked?

     Overhauled would be better. I think this mechanic needs major work and while I understand it I don't think its at all historical.

[Ledinis]

If by indecisive you mean lasting for more than 10 minutes then yeah, i do quite enjoy those. On a serious note though at medium range line ships still damage each other quite decently and at close range they melt each other faces after 9.82 (granted you use carronades on the weather decks). The only issue with this i see is defenders winning a port battle by avoiding going into fighting ranges, which from what i understand will soon be addressed in the new port battle patch. Really hope you dont revert them to the slow frigates that they were pre damage model 5.0.

 

As for marines, i dont think its just that mod that is broken, but the entire system being in a need of a rework. Does anyone here even use musket volley and fire gun decks ?  

[akd]

I've been taking on 1st and 2nd rates solo and capturing relatively easily after a few stern rakes.

Stern-rakes are a little underwhelming at the moment

Trying to reconcile these two statements...