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If we make ramming punish the rammer more heavily than the ship getting rammed, then the "shoot for leaks x ram for victory" tactic might be weakened somewhat.

On the flipside, it would make capturing traders even more difficult, as many of them - in addition to throwing their cargo overboard - will ram their attacker to try and scuttle their ship.

If we soften or reduce the penalty for ramming, we address both of those issues but then we encourage a "bumper boats" style of gameplay which will introduce its own set of ahistorical tactics.

 

On a certain level, I think we just sort of have to live with some combination of the above realities and try to balance the ramming mechanic so that skill - in shooting and sailing - is given preference as much as possilbe over gamey tactics.

 

I still feel we're pretty much there, but as a privateer, reducing the penalties for ramming will certainly benefit me, and will they help alleviate the issue of SOLs (or whatever) getting Connie-kazied. So, sure, what the heck. Although I still think they're pretty OK as-is right now.

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From Eishen: "So punishing rammers (high velocity bow impacts) with underwater leaks (as said by others this is also not  unhistorical, as a strong impact on the prow will severely damage its full structure)."


 


I agree that at a predetermined angle of bow impact from the rammer should result in significant bow damage to the rammers' ship. And also (as suggested above by another Forum member) some form of Crew Shock should happen to the rammer as a result of the force of impact. 

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But I think the main consequence of ramming should be changed to loss of multiple masts.

Makes sense. And combined with ramming shock it should be difficult to repair. Add a long repair delay to attacker after a high speed frontal ram.

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I think the mast loss idea is interesting, but won't it be ripe for exploitation now that masts are harder to shoot down than previously?

 

I.e. position a Basic Cutter (or whatever) in a place where the Victory is going to be unable to avoid it. Now the Victory loses multiple masts and has effectively been crippled, while the Basic Cutter bounces off and goes about his business.

 

Or: Traders actively seek out to be rammed so as to cripple their attacker. Then bounce off and go about their business.

 

I just fear that it would cause many more problems than it would solve.

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Might've missed it, but I didn't see mentioned in the above for or against arguments anything about the vertical offset due to wave action.  It's the same concept as turning at speed and getting leaks with hull exposed.  If you ram someone you're probably at top or at least a high speed, and waves are going to offset the ships' elevations, so the picture that admin posted early on in this thread is not altogether accurate.  For some bow types this might make no difference, but IMO the damage model should reflect impact elevation differences that you don't have much control over.  You might ram but hit a wave at least minute and be vaulted.  Or your opponent.  The results would be different between those two scenarios if you are looking for accuracty in the model.  In that respect, the damage done via ramming becomes somewhat of a luck factor.

 

I agree with above comments that damage should occur and be balanced, but the damage should in part depend on elevation differences riding the waves.

Edited by Jean Ribault

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In my view, ramming should cause armor damage and might cause catastrophic rigging damage to both ships, but as the admin says i don't see the direct leak damage point.

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While I think the one who initiate the ram should probably receive more damage i suspect such a thing would be hard to implement as to who actually rammed who. Currently I dont mind the current set up but have no experience of it being abused to quick sink.

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because the ship is made of wood, and they are both in the water the destruction of the upper bow part will soften the impact by destroying the bow part of the colliding ship and pushing the other ship. By the time underwater part collides with another ship most energy will be lost and/or will be transferred to pushing momentum.

Agreed. I have argued as much in great detail several times.

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Ramming with bow generally perpendicular at high speed:

 

Ramming ship:

 

  • Damage to bow structure
  • leaks incl below waterline
  • possible loss of mast/rigging damage + rigging shock

Target ship:

  • Side damage
  • If armor mostly down also module damage?
  • above waterline leaks

 

Ship size, speed and angle of attack make a big difference to damage. Cutter position in front of Victory should be simply run over by the much large ship or pushed away with little damage to much larger ship. Glancing blows should not result in much damage at all.

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One idea to stop boarding ramming... You said that the ram would affect anything on the boat that is not nailed on. People, equipment, weapons and so on. So my suggestion...
- No leaks, or moderate leaks

- Bow damage for the rammer

- rammer loses bow spriet

- rammed ship takes damage and small crew losses

- rammer loses all boarding preparation, 5% of the remaining crew and a moderate number of cannons due to the heavy impact. Depends on the speed of course.

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- rammer loses all boarding preparation, 5% of the remaining crew and a moderate number of cannons due to the heavy impact. Depends on the speed of course.

Completely legit

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THe above and possible rigging/mast damage. Maybe entangled rigging aswell, so it will prohibit movement away from each other or would cause even more rigging damage.

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Maybe collisions should be less about leaks and more about "swamping".

 

A small ship isn't going to swamp a big ship but when you're in a Trincomalee, pushing a Snow in front of you, you're probably swamping it -- pushing it sideways and filling it with water that's being pushed in from the sides.

 

Ships being pushed sideways -- especially by a bigger ship that's going to heel it over -- should take on water, but not necessarily as "leaks" (if they stop getting pushed, they would stop taking water).

Edited by Slamz

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Several of the Allied vessels at Trafaglar were rammed during the initial break through, and the subsequent melee as the British columns forced their way through the close packed ships.

Damage to the ships involved (British bows and Allied broadside framing and planking) was significant, and some spars fell during this portion but no vessels were lost during the battle.
Heavy damage above the waterline (from both gunfire and ramming damage) may have contributed to the loss of many vessels after the battle during the strong gale. (Most iirc were abandoned and scuttled, although a few did founder with their crews)

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My thinking is that it should not happen and should just destroy the bow for the ramming ship (causing leaks)

but i think there are no under water holes after a ram

maybe i am missing something

 

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The part that is missing here is the flexing of the wooden structure.  Just enough flexing could cause the caulking to come out of the seams, or springing an entire plank.  This would be extremely difficult to repair at sea, especially during battle.  That said, for gameplay I like the current model overall, though adding more rigging damage (and possibly morale/crew shock) would be nice.  The only problem with making ramming more damaging to the rammer is that a new tactic of crossing in front of someone and stopping would be utilized.  Essentially, instead of ramming you'll try to get rammed, while raking the vessel from the bow.  This tactic could be abused just as easily.  It would be nice if the bowsprit and masts could interact, so that if someone has their bowsprit sticking out between someone else's masts, that there's a good likelihood of it snapping off.  Lower masts were generally much sturdier, but if already damaged they could fall as well.

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