ships of the line armor

[Tiedemann]

It needs immediate tweaking. Something in the middle of what it was and what we now have. I'm just boarding ships now. No point in shooting anything, it takes to much time!  

[BungeeLemming]

and how about every man in game uses the identical wood once you chose the type? And identical ship plans?

Intrepido, this is no way to argue.

 

maybe google may help you out with shp plans?

And what do you mean by latest ship plans? She was an upgraded 112 gunner. Sadly I cannot remember out of my head which ship class that was. And I am really not into googling for hours. Ive done that for too long now.

 

Victory:

 

Santi

 

 

The Constitution thing atm is working pretty well imo. (your milage may and will vary)

Can not be reliably penetrated by mid arms and can be overcome at close range.

Problem?

The SoLs are plain broken. The devs admit it and we will get a fix for that.

 

I am not going to discuss vicy vs santi or consti vs other frigs in here.

The devs have the right to balance ships to each other they way they think they are best suited for their role. One ship of the class might be a dmge dealer, the other a tank. Next ship might fit in between (ocean class)

 

For the Consti supporters: The devs already know that she does not perform how she should be.

However Ingermanland overperforms.

Consti is a superfrigate. She will always be one.

[Kloothommel]

Port battles are boring with SOL as they are now...

Edited May 21, 2016 by Kloothommel

[jppsx]

love the new armor , make the games much more realistic and fun , this games is not world of paper ship
player just need to adapt and fight closer

[OTMatt]

Port battles are boring with SOL as they are now...

 

It even translates well to the open world. When we engaged an enemy fleet yesterday both sides were just shooting sails the whole game because neither sides rounds were penetrating. It was too silly.

 

Maybe historically realistic but silly

[jppsx]

ship of the line are fine whit this new armor , finally a games that don't have battleship made of paper

[Captain Ward]

I love the investment in realism represented by the new patch but it is simply a step too far. Not only has it ruined the underdog spirit of previous battles (in which two mercuries could take down a santi and did) but it has made already long battles hugely longer and has made it nigh on impossible to actually be sunk (as already proven by the Jeremie PB). I like the mechanic, i think its really well made and would love to have it in the game but if theres a way of lessening its...intensity...that would be great. I'm glad the devs spotted the problem and I urge them to fix it as soon as possible. For a game thats losing new player intake, the last thing you want to do is make the high levels even more stronk.

Edited May 21, 2016 by Captain Ward

[admin]

stay on the positive side guys

 

We DID want to test that side of the spectrum. Its early access - we MUST test to find the best balance. Without testing you won't have anything in the world

[Dius]

stay on the positive side guys

 

We DID want to test that side of the spectrum. Its early access - we MUST test to find the best balance. Without testing you won't have anything in the world

 

I wish you didn't have to keep reminding the community they are not just playing the game they are helping to build it.

 

Hope you can lesson the bouncing cannons soon though. As funny as it is to see 32lb Longs do nothing to line ships at reasonable range it needs to be taken back a bit.

[Destraex]

The only thing that needs to be lowered is SOL strength VS OTHER ships of the line.

It is right that smaller vessels cannot penetrate them as it is now. What is not right is the real life time it takes to fight an SOL battle now (1.5hrs). 

 

Perhaps just keep the current model and scale everything to be faster (battles quicker because damage is faster with same damage model) at all levels and ships. You have it right. It just needs to take less time.

[Teutonic]

Very nice to see a quick response from the Admin!

 

the dynamic between 5th rates and lower is great, it is as you say, the SoL armor and the large gun penetrations seem incredibly funky and something needs to be tuned there.

[NorthernWolves]

For the Consti supporters: The devs already know that she does not perform how she should be.

However Ingermanland overperforms.

Consti is a superfrigate. She will always be one.

Wow. Not surprised though to be honest.

And that is why I now support the Santisima fans, they are victims of the same unfounded bias as everyone else. You can't tell one ship, 'screw you because FACTS' and another ship 'screw you because WE SAID SO'.

This is the same attitude that had me quit the moderator team, I see not much has changed after my 6 month break.

This whole frame spacing concept was mine to begin with, the research was mine, the hit points proposal I did with Alex and Cunningham and the 3 PDF research papers I've done can justify using frame spacing better than what you just posted or anything I've seen anyone else post, I was the one who used the Victory and Santisima as the example in the HP proposal!

This is like the twilight zone.

Until it is implemented equally and fairly the 'system' that is being used has no credibility whatsoever, because it isn't a system, so anything and everything about it can be challenged and I will support every single challenge.

If you don't apply the same rules to EVERY SHIP nothing is valid, nothing can be defended.

 

The very second formulas that are drawn from the actual measurements are implemented from the Ocean class down to the gunboats, the hit points and thicknesses become unassailable and can stand up to any criticism, you can't argue against facts, you know, just like you told the Santi supporters, but right now there ain't no damn 'facts'.

You guys are either still making the elementary mistake of confusing gun count and 'rate' with real measurements and scantlings or you are just acting out personal biases in a game while claiming realism.

You know I came back here with a positive attitude, I came back with a 'water under the bridge' let's move forward attitude, but I see it's the same ol round and round.

Why the pretense of using facts? I'd be insulted if I was one of these Spanish gentlemen, I sure do hope they read this.

Just come out and say 'we will make the ships perform how we want them to', you'll at least get props for being honest.
 

Edited May 22, 2016 by NorthernWolves

[Thonys]

hi all

 

well i think it is all about penetration

in one mission we (a 3 rate and a frigate wit long guns) where up againts a pavel 

at mid ragnge (250 meters) we did hardly   no damage we saw we hit the pavel but the shots where not counting (i believe that is a bug)

only at close range (100 meters ) we could hit the pavel under the waterline and counted 25 shots leaks(in a total of 40 ) in one broadside (that resulted in a fast sinking of the pavel)

the result page showed no assist and no kill as a result (i believe that is a bug to)

the time we had to sink the (1) pavel was over 40 minutes (to much time for one ship)

 

this all resulted in a fight where we only could hit in close range of the pavel (range issue )

the long guns did not count all the balls from different calibers ,only the large ones (penetration issue)

 

also the pavel sunk very fast so the leaks are also to strong at the moment (screenshot)

(made a bug report on the result page)

 

so fine tunning is the key word here 

for:

1 distance (result of damage on longer distance)

2 penetration amounnt  ( more spread of armor of the ships class thikness of the hulls for the ships class (trader or /warship purpose)

(not all schots(low caliber) are counting hull dam for small damage to the ship

3 leaks (less)

 

also but s that perhaps a different topic... (increase of boarding possibility)

if 2 schips have the same speed and sailing in the same direction next to each other (within 6 meters distance) .. the boarding should be become possible with a max speed of 5 knots in a difference of +/-1 knots to each other

(tangle of rigging effect) (( specialy fire ships had hooks to catch ships,at the end of the extra large beams to catch them))

 

if the ships have a other direction to each other the old system is in order for speed and possibility

Edited May 22, 2016 by Thonys

[BungeeLemming]

Well Northern.

You are right with what you say.

If you want to use me as your targe. Sure go ahead. If you feel better afterwards?

 

 

I do not have more influence to the development of the game than most of the forum users do.

Sure, I have the ability to talk to the devs but thats only an advantage if I have a bug or exploit to report.

The modteam does not have nearly the influence to the devs you make the forum users believe.

Thats something I want to set straight.

 

 

My argument of frame spacing went straight towards "better woodtype".

I did not intend on setting this thread on fire.

 

About Consti I do have my own opinion.

Formed on months of consti only action because of OPness.

And I am oblivious to RL if it breaks the game.

[Kair]

i think it is too strong and should be lowered

 

best suggestion is to sail frigates until wednesday

 

That makes me sad to hear !

Took me a few fights to make up my mind about it, but in fact, I love the new penetration systeme. Sure, staying at 250-500m and firing is not an option anymore, but that's the point. The fact that it forces captains to get in close range other great benefits :

 

• Carronades are usefull again. As all the ships now need to fight between 50 and 250m, getting too close means getting fired upon by the carronades and staying too far means not penetrating. Beffore the patch, long distance engagement rendered carronades useless. now, everything happens between 0 and 250m, so the "safety margin" is way lower, you cant just camp at 500m with 6 pds for 1h.
• Boarding / Raking / Disabling : key to a Sol Vs Sol fight. It's not all about sinking the enemy fleet. Disabling can be done faster then sinking, but can be tricky in a major battle. Remember Trafalgar ? Nelson Lines just stoped the French/Spanish one, blocked a few ships, then, the entire Brit line just Raked the Bucentaure (and probably 1 or 2 other Sols).
• Major SOL battles dont end with 100% sunk boats on one side. In fact that never happened in the real world. And dont get me wrong, I'm not the "everything should be ultra-realistic" kind, but I find things to work-out way better that way, and, it make SOL battles epic, you can actually sustain a huge amount of fire if you are at medium range.

 

We did a few fleets with freinds, and Pavel Vs Pavel could go pretty nasty pretty fast if we stayed at <50m.

Things are now all about taking the wind the best way, to be able to fire bellow water line, not showing your back or ass to the enemy broadside etc... And that is only possible becaus it's hard to penetrate.

 

Sure, things are not the same and it's a little hard to change the way we fight, but too me, it give a lot more depth to the game. Well at least, that's what I think.

[NorthernWolves]

Well Northern.

You are right with what you say.

If you want to use me as your targe. Sure go ahead. If you feel better afterwards?

 

 

I do not have more influence to the development of the game than most of the forum users do.

Sure, I have the ability to talk to the devs but thats only an advantage if I have a bug or exploit to report.

The modteam does not have nearly the influence to the devs you make the forum users believe.

Thats something I want to set straight.

 

 

My argument of frame spacing went straight towards "better woodtype".

I did not intend on setting this thread on fire.

 

About Consti I do have my own opinion.

Formed on months of consti only action because of OPness.

And I am oblivious to RL if it breaks the game.

 

Look, I know how the mod teams works and you do have a little more influence than the average player, simply because you chat with admin about every day, that's normal, but I am not blaming you for this state of affairs if anyone reading is wondering.

I just responded to your PM. If anyone misread that as a personal attack on Bungee it was not.

It was a full broadside at this biased and flawed implementation of what could be a great system.

Also that adhering to real facts doesn't break the game with one ship, but does with another is also, as you might imagine, flawed. Was the game broken last patch when everyone was happy with the Constitutions HP?

[OlavDeng2]

Look, I know how the mod teams works and you do have a little more influence than the average player, simply because you chat with admin about every day, that's normal, but I am not blaming you for this state of affairs if anyone reading is wondering.

I just responded to your PM. If anyone misread that as a personal attack on Bungee it was not.

It was a full broadside at this biased and flawed implementation of what could be a great system.

Also that adhering to real facts doesn't break the game with one ship, but does with another is also, as you might imagine, flawed. Was the game broken last patch when everyone was happy with the Constitutions HP?

To comment on the last part, i sure wasnt happy with the constitution, the constitution in the last patch made pretty much any ship between 50 and 70 guns that would come in the future irrelevant.

 

edit: to comment further, balance changes are on the way, but one thing one must always remember that this is first and foremost a game, i can see some things being changed for the sake of gameplay.

[OTMatt]

To comment on the last part, i sure wasnt happy with the constitution, the constitution in the last patch made pretty much any ship between 50 and 70 guns that would come in the future irrelevant.

edit: to comment further, balance changes are on the way, but one thing one must always remember that this is first and foremost a game, i can see some things being changed for the sake of gameplay.

I think they could do something for the frigate players in pb and rather than over buff the Ingermanland instead nerf both the Ingermanland and the Constitution until the Frigates and Belles could reliably put a dent into their hulls at reasonable combat distance. I mean the roles both ships had before the patch were great.

I never personally saw the Connies as overpowered, more like a situational ship and the same applied to the Ingermanland.

[akd]

To comment on the last part, i sure wasnt happy with the constitution, the constitution in the last patch made pretty much any ship between 50 and 70 guns that would come in the future irrelevant.

This is emotion driven and doesn't give a rational basis for discussion. Every ship ever launched made some earlier ship obsolete in some regard. Technology is progress. You cannot have a game that is both anchored with an empirical damage model (which devs claim) and balanced so that ships of all eras can compete on equal footing according to class labels or stereotypes. Rates varied with time and nations, and many labels are applied retroactively to forms that weren't seen as fitting neatly into categories at the time (a number of British naval authorities insisted that the big American frigates were in fact SoLs).

Simple fact is that Constitution had the hull thickness, length and breadth of a contemporary 74, but less firepower. If Constitution had shown up off of St. Petersburg in 1715, no one for a moment would have considered her some form of frigate. She would have been seen as a strange and unusually long SoL with an somewhat light armament for her size and (insanely to the contemporary mind) overbuilt hull. She certainly would have been placed right into the line of battle alongside Ingermanland and even larger SoLs.

The Constitution should be self-balancing if implemented realistically and according to a consistent system applied to all ships, even more so as additional ships are added to the game (24pdr frigates, razees, 64-gun SoLs). For the cost of the hull of a 74, you should get a target almost the size of a 74 but with less firepower, a ship that draws water like a 74 (even 64-gun 3rd rates could probably go places the Constitution couldn't) somewhat less HP (less height of structure) than a 74, and equivalent hull thickness (resistance to penetration) to a 74. How is that OP? What do you get with Ingermanland? A maneuverable and tough (relative to any true frigate) platform for 32 pdrs in a package not much larger than a late 18th C. frigate (like Trincomalee) and that should cost less than a Constitution. Simply saying Frigate (of any form or time) < SoL (of any form or time) and then balancing from there while at the same time using a physics-based combat model is absurd and will lead to unending and undefenseable tweaking and rebalancing.

Implement a rationale system based on empirical data, and balance the entire system for gameplay or better outcomes as needed (e.g. If real penetration values and real hull thicknesses are resulting in unrealistic outcomes, as they are currently to a degree, then make across the board adjustments to the system). Let variable winds, variety in port battle requirements / forms, economy, ship-based missions etc. further the work of diversifying ship choice. Then you stand on solid ground with what you have made and don't have to rebalance every time a new ship is added.

[maturin]

I heard that a fleet of Constis recently beat a fleet of Third Rates before the recent patch. If so, and the participants were competent, that would be broken.

[akd]

I've seen 3rd rates beat Constitutions 1v1 in the past, which is far more relevant.

[randommexi]

here is my opinion on the santi vs victory.

 

one quick question,

 

which one is on the bottom of the ocean?

 

which one is still on the top of the ocean?

 

think its clear which ship should be better.

 

 

Edit:  didn't those two ships fight each other?  which one won?

just realized that's more then one question.  I r math challenged

Edited May 22, 2016 by randommexi

[OlavDeng2]

here is my opinion on the santi vs victory.

 

one quick question,

 

which one is on the bottom of the ocean?

 

which one is still on the top of the ocean?

 

think its clear which ship should be better.

 

 

Edit:  didn't those two ships fight each other?  which one won?

just realized that's more then one question.  I r math challenged

They didnt fight 1v1, it was a fleet battle. At the end of Battle, which ships survived? well neither sank... you also have cases where inferiour ships captured superior ships due to chance or skill or some other factor. Judging a ships quality based on who won is no way to do it.

[Chimera]

Fun game > perfectly realistic

If certain ships are only useful for parading in front of Kingston there would be no need to put the effort into implementing as many as possible. I am all for balancing them out even if it isn't perfectly realistic

[fox2run]

Something is wrong with the new system. In order to have fun, you need to make a damage system based on skills. Not on how many leaks a broadside can do close on. Yesterday I saw a Pavel go down after 2 min of battle. I also almost lost my 3rd rate to an AI-bot that rammed me right away after 30 seconds of gameplay. I dont know why I didnt sink - I needed 800 crew for repairs and my ship was about 90% filled with water. But I mean - where is the tactical play? Where is the option to to make formations - lines - maneuvres etc. in such an environment? Id say the old system - with all its flaws - was the better chioce. 

 

Its simply too risky to sail out now as battles are completely randomized. 

 

Also I was in a group of 11 players. We got tagged by single players and where split up in 2-3 groups with a lot of "battle circle" to choose from. When you group up, you very much like to play and fight as a group. There must be better ways to make the tagging mechanisms. 

 

I know you are facing a challenge making this game right. I also know that you like the realism aspect. But in a game - gameplay always comes first. THEN you can make things lookin good and nice etc. I got the feeling that you are doing things the other way around here.