Jump to content
Game-Labs Forum
admin

Penetration and armor thickness feedback - moderated

Recommended Posts

BungeeLemming    1,484

yesterday I had a long fight. 4 consti and my pavel vs 2 bellonas and a consti.

 

The Consti was not a big deal to sink. My 42s and 24s penetrated well enough at most distances. the 6pd just bounced off. Thats okay.

 

But then I went onwards the Bellonas. And boy was that a tedious fight.

At lets say 400m my shos barely scratched his paint. 42s > 24s but not by much. I try to shoot at ships with an max angle of 80°.

After one or two rakes (which most of my shots missed cause of bad timing. Speed is too slow for the gunners to hit on spot) my enemy learned how to avoid this.

The result was a yardarm to yardarm fight where th bellona actually out DPS-ed me for a while. Actually we had our hulls touch each other.

Now ofc all of the big guns hit and did dmge. (despite those who flew through one guneport and out of the other)

But that cannot be the meta.

That has no skill involved. It simply is: who has the better ship and the better reload modules.

 

 

Another thing: I disabled the one side I didnt need via F5. My other was 100% manned.

And for some obscure reason they loaded each gun one after the other. Not the whole broadside..

Thats something I will focus test more.

 

 

 

edit:

Acadian44 you better tone down and see it from the tester perspective.

You dont write feedback. You rant.

Step back, use the weekend to test all kind of ships. Not only 1st - 3rd rates.

Frigates seem to work rather well. Ships of the Line dont.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Manta Scorpion    144

So orbit nuking after 1-2 solo shots to pre aim is more skill based for you than using manual sails to position yourself close to an enemy and use different gun decks to seperatly fire caros and longs ?

there nnever was nuking and it was with manuel sails before. Now you have to outturn a bellona 7 times ( you shot 7 broadsides and she shoots 1 time) to outdmg her a little bit. If that is skill, noone in this game will ever beat me if I m on a better ship. Before it was skill, atm it is madness

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jppsx    9

best patch I have see love the new damage system it incredible nice work the dev have made ,I hope they wont change this patch 

 it make the games lot more realistic ,
also big ship are much harder to sink and don't take not lot of damage from smaller ship like it suppose to be , 

player just need to learn to get closer
I have no problem sinking all ship I got in mission in reasonable amount of time


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mikawa    319

I must agree that this game goes into a direction, I don't like at all. What indeed fascinated me about this game is that the skill of the player was deciding over win or loss. Not like in WOW, where the better weapon or armour set or the higher character level matters. I fear that the new damage system (smaller ships cant penetrate the armour of bigger) together with the proposed crew skill changes turn NA into a Naval WOW. Please not! Keep pure player skill on top of the priority list. This is quite unique and this is why so many people immersed into this game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The Spud    593

My 5 cents. Took on a Trinc in a 3rd (for testing), the amount of leaks I could put in that ship was about 3 - 4 times what it was before. The trinc didn't even scratch the paint, and sank after I think 7 - 8 broadsides. Second fight, fleet mission (135xp one) with a friend, I in a conni (teak NPC one) he in a frig. The small ships could only realy do damage to my stern, the sides even when hit a billion times by small ships only lost like half a plank. Did another mission against a BP, let my friend in a frig do as much damage as he could to the BP so he could get the kill. The BP did broadside after broadside while I took on his sails and masts, and his shots did nothnig, lost plank and a half max. As long as I could protect my stern, I was not ever in any form of danger. Its like playing a game with god mode on, you can sail inbetween whatever is smaller and never realy worry.

 

Previously we had, in my opinion, "perfect" paced battles. Not too short, not too long. If sinking ships will take too long, this will just result in more boarding. And would kinda hate the fact that sailing around with gold boarding mods would become the standard. If we would make it something inbetween pre and post patch, that might be the sweet spot. If you are sailing a ship of equal strenght, and previously it would take +-15 broadsides to sink one, you couldn't afford allot of misses. When it take 3 - 4 times the amount of broadsides, these errors are less important.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Blackjack Morgan    1,026

Way too early to cast definitive opinions on the new model if you ask me. Give it some time and see how the new system plays out a bit. On more than one occasion I've initially disliked new mechanics only later changing my mind about them. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ITFHunter    36

Current dmg model is

1) killing the excitment (if someone has a ship disadvantege he toast for sure) -> boring

2) takes to much time to finish a battle -> boring

3) reduce the battle distance to much (from >=1000 meters to <=250 meters)

4) kills the possibility to do effective Group battles (battle distance...)

Player don't really care about historical correctness. we care about fun/excitment. So our measuring unit for "is it good/bad" is -> fun / "real time hour"

Fun can be for each Person a bit diffrent. Some also think "historical correctness" can be a bit fun, but unfortunately most People have to for historical correctness.

Old System (~"good"):

Driving 1h for a port battle, have around 2 fights (if enemy was there) in a hour, so do 3-4 battle within 3 hours, port to capital and go offline

current System [boring):

Driving 1h for a port battle, have around 1 fights (if enemy was there) in a hour, so do 1-2 battle within 3 hours, port to capital and go offline

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mikawa    319

 

current System [boring):

Driving 1h for a port battle, have around 1 fights (if enemy was there) in a hour, so do 1-2 battle within 3 hours, port to capital and go offline

Your calculation is even worse. Get a loot from the other ship and you can't teleport any more. :-(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ITFHunter    36

Your calculation is even worse. Get a loot from the other ship and you can't teleport any more. :-(

yeah, but teleport with cargo can be "exploided" to much. Eco without any danger. so.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jeheil    2,503

Vic has 110 armour and all longs.

Santi also has 100 longs and carros on the top deck.

 

Both Live Oak Builds.

 

Tested at >750m 500-600, 500, 300, 250, 100 and side by side. With locked and unlocked fire modes.

 

Conclusion. Vic wins at almost all ranges bar <100m side to side. Cannons die alot. Other than stern raking, use unlocked for max cannon carnage.

 


yeah, but teleport with cargo can be "exploided" to much. Eco without any danger. so.....

 

Simple answer to this is a very low limit to allow transfer. So less than X tonnes or %age of tonnage.

 

Not being able to teleport coz you have a mid grade note cannot be the intention...I could put that in my pocket :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jodgi    2,318

This is interesting.

One one hand you have guys stating that they cannot damage or sink an opponent, then on the other hand there are known decent players who report being able to win/sink/disable big ships in 30+- minutes.

I suspect some of us need to try new things to succeed in the new system.

Forgive me, but I'm sceptical to some of the negative feedback. Since Sea Trials I've seen what people do; Downwind long range line-fighting, lee-kiting, hull bashing and so on...

The new changes have made some of the more popular tactics quite ineffective. I'm not saying all pen and armor values are balanced already.

Things you could try:

Bow and stern raking.

This was the puny 18/9 guns on my trinco raking a Pavel with ball:

2ee6791fee5570eb0d5fd8eac8a9061e.png

Imagine what your big guns could do with longitudinal fire.

Bow sprit and mast disabling is still a thing at medium to close range.

Damage model 5.0 is a deliberate step away from simple side bashing, note that admin stated: "Ships must tank with broadside".

This patch is glorious even before balancing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Maxus    13

This is interesting.

One one hand you have guys stating that they cannot damage or sink an opponent, then on the other hand there are known decent players who report being able to win/sink/disable big ships in 30+- minutes.

I suspect some of us need to try new things to succeed in the new system.

Forgive me, but I'm sceptical to some of the negative feedback. Since Sea Trials I've seen what people do; Downwind long range line-fighting, lee-kiting, hull bashing and so on...

The new changes have made some of the more popular tactics quite ineffective. I'm not saying all pen and armor values are balanced already.

Things you could try:

Bow and stern raking.

This was the puny 18/9 guns on my trinco raking a Pavel with ball:

2ee6791fee5570eb0d5fd8eac8a9061e.png

Imagine what your big guns could do with longitudinal fire.

Bow sprit and mast disabling is still a thing at medium to close range.

Damage model 5.0 is a deliberate step away from simple side bashing, note that admin stated: "Ships must tank with broadside".

This patch is glorious even before balancing.

 

That's all well and good, but good luck and have fun going around raking enemy SOL in a SOL. If your enemy is not a complete idiot he's never going to let you near his stern and since you'd most likely be in  a sol there's not much you can do to get behind him.

 

I like have some form of armour to help tank broadsides and make fights last longer, but right now it's retardedly shit

 

What the devs need to understand is that a large chunk of their players don't have the time to spend an hour and a half per battle for the bigger battles and they will haemorrhage players in a game that was already losing many players.

 

But to the point. If I'm alongside an enemy broadside at a range where I could easily throw a grenade at the enemy  and I'm still bouncing shots then that's just broken, even according to their chart that's broken as I should have far more penetration even with 12pd guns to penetrate.

Edited by Maxus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Strugelwits    33

I can see a lot of negativity about this patch, however I quite like these changes as is stops the long range fighting and almost forces players to get in close, It also makes the shape and the angle of the ship matters more for more skill based combat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jodgi    2,318

That's all well and good, but good luck and have fun going around raking enemy SOL in a SOL. If your enemy is not a complete idiot he's never going to let you near his stern and since you'd most likely be in  a sol there's not much you can do to get behind him.

Well, you're in a fight with others, right? He might make himself a hard target for you, but your friend can use that to get into position. If you take wind instead of running downwind it is possible to force a good firing solution on someone. Try it.

 

...but right now it's retardedly shit...

Not helping.

 

...What the devs need to understand is that a large chunk of their players don't have the time to spend an hour and a half per battle for the bigger battles and they will haemorrhage players in a game that was already losing many players...

I'm sure there are ex-WoT players lamenting the fall of the mighty Maus and cursing T10 medium tanks, people missing the lightning strike in Dark Souls or whatever.

In any case, doom-and-gloom is not gonna cut it.

 

...But to the point. If I'm alongside an enemy broadside at a range where I could easily throw a grenade at the enemy and I'm still bouncing shots then that's just broken...

The point of this thread is to balance things that are off, it will get fixed. But expect "alongside enemy" tactics to never return to the same level of efficiency.

You may not like it but for me this is the best patch since pre-EA "whacky patch".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The Red Duke    6,298

Two battles conducted under the new revised system.

 

First battle - Had the opportunity to engage 4 different ships - Constitution, Trincomalee, Cherubim and Ingermaland.

 

Was equiped with full setup of Mediums, 24 pounders and 12 pounders on both broadsides.

 

Nothing out of the ordinary within the 500m range with lots of bounces, and splintering as expected killing a few guns and crew.

Damage to structure was acceptable and once I came under the 120 paces range ( that's pretty much a Consti length of separation ) I started to blast leaks having noted one occasion of 12 leaks just above the waterline; with mediums so I expect the longs shot charges to work perfectly.

 

The Cherubim showed increased resilience at medium range. The Ingermaland as well. The Constitution 21 inches of armour did work as "ironsides".

 

After I sunk I stood to see a 3rd Rate slug it against the models and it is noticeable that it is a ship-of-the-line. It wasn't the scary monster I was reading on this thread but it had the staying power expected for a 3rd rate. Eventually good positioning from the frigates won the day blazing cannon fire through the deck galleries.

 

The second battle was in a different Constitution, still using full mediums setup, and had to face 5th rates, Trincomalee, Belle Poule and Essex. Knowing the new system I tried to get within the 600m engagement distance fast and started to slug it off. Enemies had longs and started to fire at long range, at over 800m. Nothing of note, no real structure damage to speak of, just a few crew dead on deck as ball shot passed over their shoulders.

 

Once inside the musket range ( as per historical engagement manuals ) the results started to show. The Belle Poule broadside shape did help to bounce a few of the 12 pounders and minimal against the 24 pounders, at 200m at most, in a parallel course. The trinc, was maybe Fir, couldn't soak any energy at all and was having its timbers shattered at 300m.

 

Did not yet tested the mast shots but given they now carry wood thickness as well I expect that they can withstand shots as good as the broadsides at the mast roots.

 

Cannot relate to ships-of-the-line testing as I do not command any of them but if anything they seem to be quite the wooden walls and endure severe punishment. Maybe the captains and admirals have yet to adapt. Suggestion: Grab the Royal Navy manuals of engagement and follow them by the letter regarding engagement distances. I think you will have the intended results.

 

So far so good, very pleased with the changes. The battles are more gruesome, position and retaining it is vital. Strong ships going in the line to slug it off is more important.

 

Selection of guns suddenly became a very important factor and not simply a "take longs or carronades" coin flip.

 

Weekend coming will have more time to test. EU evenings I am up for focused testing in the Duel room if anyone wants to, all ships up to 4th rate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cid Pahlavi    10

There are few things need to be proved.

1. It is good to make it more realistic for the hull damage,but you need to made it realistic too for the crew.The ships used to surrender before it get sunk due to too many crew get killed.

2. It is much better to cancel the cool down time for teleport between outposts.While it is unfair for the attackers in port battle,as the defender have more advantages when teleport there players to defend than sail 1 hour to attack.

3. Can anyone give me the reason to build 3rd Rate ships of line for port battle?The 32 pd cannon can not hurt the 1st Rates anymore!Do something for the 32 pd and 24 pd long cannon or just let the 3rd rates ships join the deep water port battle.In my opinion,just do the both.

4. The Ais in fleet orders just go crazy.They shoot each other and go far away from the center,but they can not sink because of the new DM.Just make them smarter.

5. Add constitution BP drop for ESSEX plz!No one want to craft a frigate that can not drop blueprints!

6. Unless you guys want to keep the numbers of the Ingermanland in a low grade,then please increase the drop rate of the BP.Every one need to craft Frigate for this BP and the drop rate is really low.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lytse Pier    760

Dear Devs, my Santisima was recently built at Hugo Republic shipyards and to my knowledge the design should be the sturdiest ship ever built with the firepower that can shake the ground underneath your feet. After a renewed intensive test run I can safely say that the effectiveness of the long guns are extremely underwhelming and the wood around the gunports seem of inferor quality giving no strength to protect my guns from being knocked out when I come under fire. 

 

Should I make my claim and complaint at the proprietor of the Hugo Republic Shipyards or will a small fix at your docks be sufficient? 

 

Without kidding around a bit: I like the changes, you really have to be aware of your relative position and angling. I do however agree with most in this thread that only player skill will not be enough to compensate for the damage reduction that resulted from the new model. Also the seemingly stronger reduction of guns is not helping in the damage output. It needs a few tweaks for sure!

Edited by Lytse Pier

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sire Trinkof    113

Rethinking cool headed about damage model, and to try to bring back more "skill" moral is more than needed.

-with a moral value, slowly decreasing with crew loss, and going up when outside combat at a very slow rate.

-any shock rigging, reload or crew, remove half the the moral, shock remain longer.

-2 shocks cumulating meaning auto surrender.

Example : dismast a ship, then raking it with success (and enough kill for a crew shock) would mean the end for the victim.

This would shorten battle in a realistic way

Probably not too hard to code and implement.

Would add huge amount of skill for aiming and maneuvering.

Would force players to play in group and line to defend themselves.

Edited by trinkof

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Vortas    4

Fleet Operation with 4 Clan members. We went in with 2 Victories, a Ingermanland and a Trinc. Flag Captain Mission....  My Victory had mediums. My Clanmates Longs. We endet the battle 5 minutes before time ran out. 85 minutes for a flag captain.... I left with 70000 gold. Why? I was not able to pen the enemy Pavel. Broadside. From side to side, ship length distance, 100m distance... Not a friggn chance to pen. I was straight next to him. Only damage I made was stern raking. Looking at 50 guns bouncing from a Pavel is REALLY disappointing. Even the Ingermanland did not take much damage. I rage boarded it finally....

 

My clan mate did more damage. But he had to go under 50m with longs and switch off the 12pds.

 

Result: I did more money and damage in a captains mission with a Victory... A first rate... Not being able to damage 2nd and 3rd rates...

 

Sorry devs... That's way too much. I dont want to spend all evening doing 1 or 2 battles and leave with almost no gold.

 

 

Oh and... we lost cannon after cannon. I had about half the cannons in the end but almost no damage.

Edited by Vortas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
OTMatt    314

This is interesting.

One one hand you have guys stating that they cannot damage or sink an opponent, then on the other hand there are known decent players who report being able to win/sink/disable big ships in 30+- minutes.

I suspect some of us need to try new things to succeed in the new system.

Forgive me, but I'm sceptical to some of the negative feedback. Since Sea Trials I've seen what people do; Downwind long range line-fighting, lee-kiting, hull bashing and so on...

The new changes have made some of the more popular tactics quite ineffective. I'm not saying all pen and armor values are balanced already.

Things you could try:

Bow and stern raking.

This was the puny 18/9 guns on my trinco raking a Pavel with ball:

2ee6791fee5570eb0d5fd8eac8a9061e.png

Imagine what your big guns could do with longitudinal fire.

Bow sprit and mast disabling is still a thing at medium to close range.

Damage model 5.0 is a deliberate step away from simple side bashing, note that admin stated: "Ships must tank with broadside".

This patch is glorious even before balancing.

 

This was the only thing I could do in my frigate in the pb and I focused so much on that but it did not contribute much.

 

Maybe you have time to do stern raking on a pavel but the clock is ticking in a port battle and you have to figure out how to sink 25 live oak ingermanlands real fast.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jodgi    2,318

This was the only thing I could do in my frigate in the pb and I focused so much on that but it did not contribute much.

 

Maybe you have time to do stern raking on a pavel but the clock is ticking in a port battle and you have to figure out how to sink 25 live oak ingermanlands real fast.

For sure, that pavel thing was just a test. I don't do bots anymore, haven't for months.

Does it have to be about sinking?

If that takes too long maybe a win can be secured faster with disabling/crew advantage and boarding?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BungeeLemming    1,484

I am unsure if the armourvalues are overdone.

Victory's planking was 60cm at her waterline. the real ship.

a frame might be what? 20cm with a nearly square base area.

the spacing means that certain areas of the hull are not covered. One could make a statistic median over the hull's side.

 

100cm in game might be overdone?

 

@Jodgi:

If boarding becomes the new meta I will certainly enjoy the game less.

For me its all about overcoming the enemy in shipcombat.

If you happen to board someone with good knowledge and modules you can still screw a previously decisive advantage.

 

automatic surrender might be a nessecety in this build.

But lets see what the devs come up with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Azzak    83

I see two main issues right now :

 

1- Problem with stern raking is that you can't sink ships doing this. So only option left is then boarding to finish an opponent.

That would be good if the boarding system was fun and exciting, but that's not the case for me. Besides the one who get gold marines has the advantage, and unfortunately you can only loot it by sheer luck.

 

Another option excluding sinking is to introduce a morale system where ships actually surrender.

 

So a choice to make : either remake boarding to be fun, either make ships surrender after sufficient crew and cannons loss, or make ships sinkable.

 

2- Another problem is that cannonballs seem to bounce where it shouldn't. I'm not sure 32 pdrs or  24pdrs should ricochet at 50m from enemy ship at perfect angle. It's quite frustrating to see your broadside having no effect whatsoever while the positioning is good. I don't really care about the actual damage done, but the modelisation of combat. 

3rd rates have 24 pdrs remember. This should be enough to pen enemy SoL at close range - or why is it even a SoL ?

Edited by Azzak

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ITFHunter    36

If the guns, armor and battle behavior has to be realisitc, why not Change the crew behavior also. If a crew member died during combat, it won't be on the ship anymore until the ship goes to a port. If a ship is captured, the crew will split from one ship two to ships, so the first ship has to go to a port again to refill it's crew. Additional change would be to disable repair kits in it's current implementation. It can't be possible to repair a ship completly on OW.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Intrepido    2,182

 

Vic has 110 armour and all longs.

Santi also has 100 longs and carros on the top deck.

 

Both Live Oak Builds.

 

Tested at >750m 500-600, 500, 300, 250, 100 and side by side. With locked and unlocked fire modes.

 

Conclusion. Vic wins at almost all ranges bar <100m side to side. Cannons die alot. Other than stern raking, use unlocked for max cannon carnage.

 

 

This shouldnt happen at all. Its clearly a sign that several things should be fixed soon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×