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Penetration and armor thickness feedback - moderated

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Exedo    6

I already submitted a bug report, but I gladly post it again if it helps.

 

We we fighting 3rd rates and 4th rates with a Santi, a Pavel and three Bellonas (Fleet Order)

- Only 42pd were able to penetrate the 3rd rates reliable at a range of up to 200m.

- 24pd had a pentration rate of less than 50% @ 90° (Broadside to broadside), up tp 200m

- we notice after a while that something rather odd was happening with the 24pd balls and even the 42pd at times: the balls just vanished, no visual bounce or impact. After we split up we noticed that they were actually flying through the enemy ships.

 

Such a mission took us an estimated 20 to 30mins tops with that setup pre-patch. Today, we spent 1h and 25mins in the battle.

I can only imagine how PB must look like atm. Victories must be nearly impossible to pentrate at this time (havent tried that yet).

 

I really hope, that you will consider tweaking the numbers, because this is not playable for the average player. It is way too time consuming. Realism is fine, but this damage model pushes it a bit too far.

Edited by Exedo

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Conde    34

Doing a fleet mission right now and only 42 pounders can penetrate a pavel, everything 24pounder and below does absolutely nothing, balls bounce even when shooting parallel.

 

Seems like numbers need tweaking, right now even 1v1 Santisimas would take about an hour to sink eachother.

 

Edit: Also noticed a lot of cannon losses that could have something to do with phony penetration.

Edited by Conde

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akd    2,622

Look above: 24pdr failing to penetrate against Third Rate at 200m and 90°. Assume 75cm side for Third Rate (not sure, but that is base thickness for Bellona), and based on chart in OP, 24pdr long should still be penetrating even at 45°. (And I can guarantee the critical ricochet angle is much less than 45°.)

Here is a relative armor calculator if anyone wants to check angle effects. You have hull thickness in game. You have the intended penetration values in OP. Let's test this properly to see if it is even working how it is supposed to.

http://www.panzerworld.com/relative-armor-calculator

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shaeberle84    329

The battles might be more realistic, but they are pretty boring right now. Everything takes way too long. We want to start with cannons loaded, kill masts from far away and penetrate ships if we feel like it. The game should be more fun.

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Kronans    31

Not any more long range shooting go close less then 100m and the battle will go as it has before. tested 2 battles with constitution and had same targets and it was not any problem fleet battle took 45 min

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The Battle Damage needs to be fixed tomorrow not next week as I saw in an earlier patch.  It takes way too long to sink a ship under this new system.  Doing a fleet mission with the NPC dispersal and the new damage model it is taking way over an hour for three Victories to complete a 186 fleet mission.

 

Sorry but I doubt many people have this much time to play in the game when one mission takes that long.

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amosblanco    21

To be honest, i would rather have the pre-patch system. It makes SOLs invincible to frigates, as their cannon can not penetrate those 100+ armor at all. 

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Cecil Selous    337

I had a battle with my Constitution (24 lb longs and 42 lb carronades) against a player Trincomalee. I don't know what type of wood his ship was made of, but I had no problem penetrating him,even with the 24 lb longs. It was at a rather close range (100 to 200 m) and in the end he made the mistake (or just didn't want to continue the fight) to show me his belly and with my last broadside I shot 18 leaks into his hull, with almost 50 leaks overall, which sank him very fast. 

 

On the other hand I had a battle with a previously damaged Reno and couldn't sink him. But this was due to his very good maneuvering, the way he angled his ship and the use of the advantage of his rounded hull. He couldn't hurt my hull, but he was able to cripple my sails and avoid too much damage to finally flee. 

 

this makes for good gameplay but as I said before, it should be tweaked down a little bit. But not the 30 - 40% Lord Vicious suggested.

 

I think frigates shouldn't be able to sink a SOL fast. Stern rakes are still possible and remain an important tactic for frigates besides shooting at the sails.

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eriks    179

A lot of people have been playing this game at stand off ranges and going for dismastings. Seems like that isn't going to work anymore. If you want to damage someone now you have to get close.

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Brunwulf    10

A lot of people have been playing this game at stand off ranges and going for dismastings. Seems like that isn't going to work anymore. If you want to damage someone now you have to get close.

 

Except when you sit side by side with a 3rd rate, and it takes you 40 minutes of bombarding his waterline to sink him with a Victory.

I may as well have only left my bottom two decks equipped to save crew because anything less than 24pnd is useless now.

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Cragger    275

Looking at the Ordnance Manual of 1863 of the Confederate Army page 384 has penetration tables into oak. https://archive.org/stream/ordnancemanualfo00conf#page/384/mode/2up

 

Now this is for considerably more modern guns to the end of the time period we play in.

 

The 24 lb gun using 6 charge has a penetration of 43.25 inches (109.855 centimeters) of oak at 100 yards (91.44 meters). By 400 yards (365.76 meters) the penetration had dropped to 26 inches (66.04 cm)

 

Using 8 charge it has a penetration of 57.5 inches (109.855 centimeters) of oak at 100 yards (91.44 meters). By 400 yards (365.76 meters) the penetration had dropped to 29.25 inches (74.295 cm)

 

So I guess the reality is we need to fight closer gentlemen :)

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Captain    93

I'm not sure I like the new invincible ships invincible masts meta :(

 

Unsinkable ships just jockeying to turn each other into the wind and do the boarding minigame isn't as fun as brawl+sink or demast+board. 

 

Grey shop connie fireships might be fun now. Take hits until it rolls a fire, then sail into enemy formation since they cant sink or demast you.  

Edited by Captain

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eriks    179

I'm not sure I like the new invincible ships invincible masts meta :(

 

Unsinkable ships just jockeying to turn each other into the wind and do the boarding minigame isn't as fun as brawl+sink or demast+board. 

 

Grey shop connie fireships might be fun now. Take hits until it rolls a fire, then sail into enemy formation since they cant sink or demast you.  

 

I always found the demast from 1000 yards thing really pretty lame.

 

Game now seems more about maneuvering and raking (which imo is good).

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Ledinis    345

Not sure whether the majority of people here are drama queens, manage to miss half of their shots at close range or use 12 lb on all decks on the Victory. It does need to take other game mechanics into consideration (like port battles where defenders are inclined to engage the enemy instead of kiting at max range), but from what i tested killing a 1v1 Santi against an NPC Santi took 27minutes to sink (counting the 3+ minutes to get close to it and in position). Admittedly the 12 pounders and 9 pounders penetrated once in a full moon and seemed quite useless to have, the 42pd penetraded more or less all shots at +-300 meters, and 24pd only became useful after coming to less than 150 meters to the enemy. Though it may need some adjustments i much rather see expanding on this damage model than reverting back to the "armor doesnt matter laser beam pew pew gameplay". A couple of things that pop to mind would be to allow different gun decks load different ammunition types on the same side of a ship, allowing to use those 9 pd guns that have little change of damaging the ship tear apart its sails using chain shots while the lower decks still pound ball shots into the enemy hull. Another option would be player crafted cannons of varying quality ( if im not mistaken developers have talked about craft-able cannons). 

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Fonseca    29

I do like the new changes, but maybe because I am already accustomed on using carros and mediums, in fact I've found that it is way way easier to sink a ship now; just try to shoot below the water line, I sinked a bellona with the hull almost intact in maybe 5 minutes tops because of a bunch of leaks.

The problem is that most people were used to the long guns, playing as if they were WWII battleships shooting at each other from very long distances, now they are forced to get closer than what their skill level allows them to, of course that kind of people didn't like the change, so dear dev DON'T go back to the old system, let the people try different gun combinations and let them get used to them, that would take AT LEAST a couple of weeks, after that ask again if the players like it

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Balsafer    266

I think some adjustments need to be made to make smaller calibers less useless. Perhaps only at close range smaller caliber/poundage cannons do anything

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akd    2,622

Looking at the Ordnance Manual of 1863 of the Confederate Army page 384 has penetration tables into oak. https://archive.org/stream/ordnancemanualfo00conf#page/384/mode/2up

 

Now this is for considerably more modern guns to the end of the time period we play in.

 

The 24 lb gun using 6 charge has a penetration of 43.25 inches (109.855 centimeters) of oak at 100 yards (91.44 meters). By 400 yards (365.76 meters) the penetration had dropped to 26 inches (66.04 cm)

 

Using 8 charge it has a penetration of 57.5 inches (109.855 centimeters) of oak at 100 yards (91.44 meters). By 400 yards (365.76 meters) the penetration had dropped to 29.25 inches (74.295 cm)

 

So I guess the reality is we need to fight closer gentlemen :)

 

See Page 36 for a table based on data closer to our era (based on French ordinance, so 24 lbs = 28 lbs, etc.), and the entire section on penetration is worth reading and highly relevant to this discussion, as well:

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=AqZWAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA35&dq=Ideas+as+to+the+effect+of+Heavy+Ordnance+penetration&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjzqIfp6efMAhWGPCYKHVmhAPwQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=Ideas%20as%20to%20the%20effect%20of%20Heavy%20Ordnance%20penetration&f=false

 

Just for reference, this table shows penetration for 1/3 charge French 24pdr (English 28pdr) of 142cm at 100m.  This is more than 32pdr at 100m in admin's table.

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Bommel    202

I do like the new changes, but maybe because I am already accustomed on using carros and mediums, in fact I've found that it is way way easier to sink a ship now; just try to shoot below the water line, I sinked a bellona with the hull almost intact in maybe 5 minutes tops because of a bunch of leaks.

The problem is that most people were used to the long guns, playing as if they were WWII battleships shooting at each other from very long distances, now they are forced to get closer than what their skill level allows them to, of course that kind of people didn't like the change, so dear dev DON'T go back to the old system, let the people try different gun combinations and let them get used to them, that would take AT LEAST a couple of weeks, after that ask again if the players like it

So shooting from point blank range requires more skill in your point of view?

I think it is the complete opposite, the game now feels dumbed down for me, you have to get close and exchange broadsides for a very long time. Skilled shots do not matter because there is no damage penetration at long range anymore.

 

I had a fight with some connies (being in a connie myself)  and it took a frustratingly long time for them to finally kill me, at one point I even put 40 leaks (within 1 1/2 minutes) in one and he didn´t sink, so no matter how good you aim or shoot it simply takes forever to do significant damage.

 

Simply put if that´s what the devs had in mind, I simply chose the wrong game, and the combat was actually real fun pre 9.8. ;(

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akd    2,622

Oh wow, people are being absurdly dramatic.  The new approach is superior, but needs adjustment or bug fixes:

 

-does not take frame spacing into account

-ricochets and bounces where there should be partial penetrations

-penetration could possibly be higher

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Nash    243

Except when you sit side by side with a 3rd rate, and it takes you 40 minutes of bombarding his waterline to sink him with a Victory.

I may as well have only left my bottom two decks equipped to save crew because anything less than 24pnd is useless now.

i think you did something wrong here.

I used my Bellona vs AI Pavel and it takes me around 20 minutes to kill it.

Vic vs Pavel around 10 minutes.

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Fonseca    29

So shooting from point blank range requires more skill in your point of view?

I think it is the complete opposite, the game now feels dumbed down for me, you have to get close and exchange broadsides for a very long time. Skilled shots do not matter because there is no damage penetration at long range anymore.

 

I had a fight with some connies (being in a connie myself)  and it took a frustratingly long time for them to finally kill me, at one point I even put 40 leaks (within 1 1/2 minutes) in one and he didn´t sink, so no matter how good you aim or shoot it simply takes forever to do significant damage.

 

Simply put if that´s what the devs had in mind, I simply chose the wrong game, and the combat was actually real fun pre 9.8. ;(

I disagree, long range combat imo can be sumed up like this: fire single shot until you hit something then fireuq the whole broadside.

CQC on the other hand requires you to use sails so your ship can lean to one side or the other so you can have a proper shot at their belly or deny your belly to the enemy, it requires you to shoot the carros separately from the mediums so they don't overshoot, since cqc requires way more maneuvering with sails there are some ships, like the bellona, that have large gun crews leaving your sails empty forcing you to f5 one side so you can have some men on sails with a 100% reload time on the side facing your enemy, and boarding which can happen if you take a wrong turn.

Hope this info helps you on your next mission

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Bommel    202

If changes are making the game less enjoyable and taking away the need of actual player skill this is a dramatic change for me. The main reason why I liked the game so far was the fact that actual player skill mattered.

Now it takes a huge amount of time to deal damage to other ships and when those players use exceptional  Steelbox you won´t be able to deal enough damage to them to actual sink them within the time frame of a battle.

Unless you face them with way superior forces.

If that is fun for you, well so be it.

 

@Fonseca

I´m talking about pvp here and not mission against NPC.

Did you try a port battle with the new damage model yet?

All you need to do as defender is bringing equal BR then keep out of CQC range. Let the attackers kill the towers it won´t win them the battle they will need to kill the towers and half of your fleet without losing a single ship and that in within the time frame of the PB.

Edited by Bommel

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Ledinis    345

If changes are making the game less enjoyable and taking away the need of actual player skill this is a dramatic change for me. The main reason why I liked the game so far was the fact that actual player skill mattered.

Now it takes a huge amount of time to deal damage to other ships and when those players use exceptional  Steelbox you won´t be able to deal enough damage to them to actual sink them within the time frame of a battle.

Unless you face them with way superior forces.

If that is fun for you, well so be it.

 

@Fonseca

I´m talking about pvp here and not mission against NPC.

Did you try a port battle with the new damage model yet?

All you need to do as defender is bringing equal BR then keep out of CQC range. Let the attackers kill the towers it won´t win them the battle they will need to kill the towers and half of your fleet without losing a single ship and that in within the time frame of the PB.

So orbit nuking after 1-2 solo shots to pre aim is more skill based for you than using manual sails to position yourself close to an enemy and use different gun decks to seperatly fire caros and longs ? 

Edited by Ledinis

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Bommel    202

Yes beacuse you could actually use manual sails before to avoid being hit by long range shots. 

To be precise, you had the option to either go close and outmaneuver your opponent or keeping them at range and avoid their shots by making clever use of maneuvers. Now you have to get close or you won´t actually do enough harm to kill anyone.

 

And for exampe what is pellew sights upgrade good for if dispersion doesn´t matter anymore because you won´t damage anyone at long range?

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Neptune    410

50m hull mashing requires no* skill. And being demasted? Well good luck with the new steel masts.

Masts & Hull was buffed hard before, why this again? It ruined the game last time during a patch and was taken out for this reason. All that was left was hull bashing and it was horribly boring.

 

/I've used Merc - Santisima In group PvP & I don't see where the fun or skill is in 50m hull bashing\

Edited by Scotch

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