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CeltiberoCaesar

Throwing all the materials just before been attacked

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I find the destruction of cargo under threat to be perfectly valid. In fact, i think I should be able to do this during battle. I should be able to devote a certain amount of crew to start tossing the valuable cargo.

To be fair most cargo didnt belong to the crew or captian and very rarely would others die so some merchant get rich off their death.

It would be like walmart employees burning down the store they work at during a robbery just to piss off the thieves. Very doubtful and very likely to get you killed.

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SHips should take serious time to build 

I agree, large ships should be a long-term project for player squadrons, whilst smaller ships (5th Rate and smaller) should not take too long. Regarding how long 'long' is, I suppose the relevant question is how long is a piece of string? Still, I'd like to see more emphasis on squadrons coming together for big projects like a 4th Rate or bigger.

 

Regarding throwing materials overboard, it should be allowed but in battle only, and require crew set to 'survival' to do (as you're trying to save the ship by ditching cargo). Then it should take time as item after item is ditched as the crew manhandle the stuff out of the hold. This means that in a protracted chase a trader can get rid of stuff to make their escape, whilst it prevents everything being ejected at the click of a button so even if everything is lost, the trader won't be able to just deny their opponents everything - marries reality (takes time to do, done as a means of saving the ship from capture) with gameplay, I think.

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I agree, large ships should be a long-term project for player squadrons, whilst smaller ships (5th Rate and smaller) should not take too long. Regarding how long 'long' is, I suppose the relevant question is how long is a piece of string? Still, I'd like to see more emphasis on squadrons coming together for big projects like a 4th Rate or bigger.

 

Regarding throwing materials overboard, it should be allowed but in battle only, and require crew set to 'survival' to do (as you're trying to save the ship by ditching cargo). Then it should take time as item after item is ditched as the crew manhandle the stuff out of the hold. This means that in a protracted chase a trader can get rid of stuff to make their escape, whilst it prevents everything being ejected at the click of a button so even if everything is lost, the trader won't be able to just deny their opponents everything - marries reality (takes time to do, done as a means of saving the ship from capture) with gameplay, I think.

That is what the one resource in the game that is time limited is supposed to simulate, labor hours.

 

All they really did was load it as a bank, rather than issue orders for things to be built, and frankly it's better this way.

 

Imagine if they had allowed you to queue up work.  You could order a whole week or months worth of your labor hours in a couple of minutes, and then simply wait it out, possibly off line the whole time, rather than having a limited bank that you had to save up. 

 

57:00 is probably what slinging cargo looked like.

 

https://youtu.be/OBnGbTgsShk?t=3439

 

Of course a victory took 15 minutes to set sail and get under way, so everything needs time compression to be fun in game, but the way it is now is a bit too much like flushing the toilet.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Weight wise it might be an issue and certain items are very heavy, but remember hauling components is space efficient, the planks and frames for instance to make up a Victory don't take up anywhere near the space that the actual ship does when disassembled and laid flat. My suspicion is that the cargo loads probably should be larger than they are though not dramatically so.

 

I've seen repeated references to there being no reason for throwing cargo overboard, this is rubbish as there are plenty of reasons to do so.

 

The loss of money/profit is cited, well if its captured  you don't get any money or profit anyway so that is a specious argument at best.

 

Similarly the loss of the ship is cited, well if captured you generally lost your ship and few of these ships were insured at this period in time. 

 

Saving your life? That argument has some small merit against national navies but not against pirates where the crew and officers had every reason to believe they would die if boarded. Against national navies crew could expect to survive whether or not they threw cargo overboard anyway or fired the ship.

 

The statement that captains didn't know their crews flies in the face of both common sense and reality, you cant live in that small a space without getting to know your crew and a good captain would make it a point to do so anyway.

 

As for motive to sink your own ship, the desire to punish the enemies war effort is one huge motivation and you certainly don't need to sink your ship (remembering your not going to get to keep it or the cargo anyway) Its simply a matter of setting fire to the ship, placing a keg of powder a short distant from the fire and take to the boats, this would make your chance of survival better and if the rat or navy chasing you wants to board they risk catching fire or being blown up.

I would ask you how long you think it would take to completely empty your hold while being chased? Especially if we are talking about a 20 man merchant crew trying to throw heavy planking overboard? Or even shovelling a cargo hold full of coal over the side? I would expect hours. In real life of course it may take hours to over haul somebody. But the merchant captain would not make an immediate decision to expel his card board. In fact he does not lose anything by allowing the attacker to have the cargo... lost over board or lost to the boarders. Except of course that the boarders may decide they are angry about the fact the captain did spite them out of cargo. If a trader is seen to be doing this rather than surrender I submit that their perhaps should be an extra crew penalty for that merchant to ensure that merchant raiding does not become impossible.

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I agree, large ships should be a long-term project for player squadrons, whilst smaller ships (5th Rate and smaller) should not take too long. Regarding how long 'long' is, I suppose the relevant question is how long is a piece of string? Still, I'd like to see more emphasis on squadrons coming together for big projects like a 4th Rate or bigger.

 

Regarding throwing materials overboard, it should be allowed but in battle only, and require crew set to 'survival' to do (as you're trying to save the ship by ditching cargo). Then it should take time as item after item is ditched as the crew manhandle the stuff out of the hold. This means that in a protracted chase a trader can get rid of stuff to make their escape, whilst it prevents everything being ejected at the click of a button so even if everything is lost, the trader won't be able to just deny their opponents everything - marries reality (takes time to do, done as a means of saving the ship from capture) with gameplay, I think.

 

 

 Except that the only way to get a noticeable amount of cargo out of the hold is to use the Spars to make the Crane and set the pulleys and blocks and tackle.. Thing is those are the Same Spars the sails are attached to.. so you start doing that you are NOT sailing. ittakes hours some times days to move cargo into a ship and out... Yet people think the crew can some how do it alone while in combat?

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That is what the one resource in the game that is time limited is supposed to simulate, labor hours.

 

All they really did was load it as a bank, rather than issue orders for things to be built, and frankly it's better this way.

 

Imagine if they had allowed you to queue up work.  You could order a whole week or months worth of your labor hours in a couple of minutes, and then simply wait it out, possibly off line the whole time, rather than having a limited bank that you had to save up. 

I understand how it works but it just feels 'lazy', if you will, from a glance. Of course there is the time it takes to get the materials, to craft the requisite items, to have the blueprint available, but the prevalence of large ships does annoy me. Currently, as I write, there is are 3x Santisimas & a Victory on sale in Christiansted, with 3x St. Pavels, 6x 3rd Rates & 6x Bellonas, not to mention 4x Constitutions. That so many of the larger ships are so readily available in a Caribbean setting irks. When clan/nation fleets sail out now there are always multiple 1st - 3rd Rates. Instead of being rare ships that bring an incredible amount of firepower to bear, they're two-a-penny. I would just like the system changed so that there is some 'wow!' factor to even a 3rd Rate showing up.

 

 Except that the only way to get a noticeable amount of cargo out of the hold is to use the Spars to make the Crane and set the pulleys and blocks and tackle.. Thing is those are the Same Spars the sails are attached to.. so you start doing that you are NOT sailing. ittakes hours some times days to move cargo into a ship and out... Yet people think the crew can some how do it alone while in combat?

Spare spars were carried as a general rule, as you never know when a spar will fracture or break, or when you'd be caught in a storm and lose a spar. However, a derrick isn't always needed. On a smaller ship, such as a Lynx or Cutter the hatches are man-sized, meaning you'd need to carry the cargo down into the hold one bit at a time, so you wouldn't need the derrick. The counter to this, of course, is that trying to carry a heavy box up a steep set of stairs whilst the ship is heeled over and bumping through the waves whilst travelling at 12knots would make the task not only difficult, but down right hazardous.

 

I just thought that I might have come up with a compromise but apparently not. Not that I'd ditch cargo anyway - I seem to be permanently broke (due to investing my resources into 'Materials' which sell slowly) and can't afford to throw cargo away, not that I need to on a Lynx.

Edited by Rikard Frederiksen

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They should be allowed to dump x amount of cargo every x amount of time, (ex 1 unit weight every minute) if the chaser wants to pick it up the trader can increase his chance to escape, if he wants the bigger prize of a half or more or less filled ship he ignores the stuf thrown over board and continues the chase with the hope he catches him with more in the hold than is sinking in the sea behind him...!

Edited by MikedaBike

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actually dumping items over board to escape was dont plenty of times in the age of sail. Dont kid yourselves boys.

 

The kedging began about 7 o’clock. The British response to it was to concentrate all their ships boats on the two nearest pursuers. The Americans surely were losing ground. At 9, Belvidera opened fire, but all her rounds fell short. Hull answered with his four stern guns, but most of his shot went over. Shortly thereafter, Guerriere also saw her shot fall short.
About 9:30, a light breeze came up and Hull got in two of his boats. At 10, Hull began pumping drinking water over the side to lighten ship. The British responded by concentrating all of their boats on towing Shannon, but Hull held on to his narrow margin of safety through the continued maximum effort of all hands. At 11, a sufficiently strong breeze arose to permit the big frigate to overtake the rest of her boats and hook them aboard without stopping.

 

Water the most important cargo of em all!

https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/constitution-resources/the-captain-speaks/the-great-chase-july-1812/

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actually dumping items over board to escape was dont plenty of times in the age of sail. Dont kid yourselves boys.

 

The kedging began about 7 o’clock. The British response to it was to concentrate all their ships boats on the two nearest pursuers. The Americans surely were losing ground. At 9, Belvidera opened fire, but all her rounds fell short. Hull answered with his four stern guns, but most of his shot went over. Shortly thereafter, Guerriere also saw her shot fall short.

About 9:30, a light breeze came up and Hull got in two of his boats. At 10, Hull began pumping drinking water over the side to lighten ship. The British responded by concentrating all of their boats on towing Shannon, but Hull held on to his narrow margin of safety through the continued maximum effort of all hands. At 11, a sufficiently strong breeze arose to permit the big frigate to overtake the rest of her boats and hook them aboard without stopping.

 

Water the most important cargo of em all!

https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/constitution-resources/the-captain-speaks/the-great-chase-july-1812/

 

 Yes and that took HOURS... that chase lasted how long?  Also the Kegging is not the same as off loading tons of cargo from a cargo ship. Your example was warships and lots and lots of crew plus they were not under sustained gunfire.

 

  Water is also the easiest cargo to move since you can use pumps and do not have to carry it by hand from the hold

Edited by CaptVonGunn

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second thoughts on this topic. if  you wanna dump ur cargo even tho they DONT slow down ur ship... well you are a coward but hey dump away.    Complaining that people destroy their own property is pretty asinine.

 

I think the coward is the person attacking the cargo ship not the one attempting to escape a patently unfair fight which they are almost certain to lose.

 

While not done often, cargo was dumped to help ships get away. Even the USS Constitution dumped cargo from its holds while being pursued and they made a painting of it doing so.

 

The merchant owner is in a lose lose situation here, they at best waste time and get away, they gain no experience or benefit. At worst they lose their ship and cargo once again with no benefit to them.

 

A stern chase took many many hours and there was time to dump pretty much anything they wanted.

Edited by Bulwyf

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The argument that it would be difficult and time consuming to dump cargo deserves consideration. Perhaps our historical enthusiasts could weigh in. Coding varable rates of cargo purge depending on the type is not likely. But perhaps it should take considerable time and much of the crew. Ejecting all of the cargo magically in an instant mouse click seems silly ... Unless the cargo is just a very small amount.

But to claim I should not be allowed to destroy my own ship or cargo because it is unsportsmanlike or contributes to poor gameplay is self righteous and overly prescriptive. It reminds me of the crime boss who was cornered by his rivals. They cornered him in his home and threatened to harm his family if he did not comply. Faced with the real imminent threat of his enemy inflicting pain on his beloved wife and children he acted without hesitation and with lighting speed murdered his own family. He denied his opponent their victory in the face of an almost certain defeat. With his family dead they had no way to threaten him.

To set up the game so there is no option but to be plundered helplessly will not improve the game. But there should be a significant effort, risk and cost to the self destruction of a ship and/or it's cargo.

Edited by Macjimm

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The argument that it would be difficult and time consuming to dump cargo deserves consideration. Perhaps our historical enthusiasts could weigh in. Coding varable rates of cargo purge depending on the type is not likely. But perhaps it should take considerable time and much of the crew. Ejecting all of the cargo magically in an instant mouse click seems silly ... Unless the cargo is just a very small amount.

But to claim I should not be allowed to destroy my own ship or cargo because it is unsportsmanlike or contributes to poor gameplay is self righteous and overly prescriptive. It reminds me of the crime boss who was cornered by his rivals. They cornered him in his home and threatened to harm his family if he did not comply. Faced with the real imminent threat of his enemy inflicting pain on his beloved wife and children he acted without hesitation and with lighting speed murdered his own family. He denied his opponent their victory in the face of an almost certain defeat. With his family dead they had no way to threaten him.

To set up the game so there is no option but to be plundered helplessly will not improve the game. But there should be a significant effort, risk and cost to the self destruction of a ship and/or it's cargo.

 

 Destroy all you want but it should require you stopping and taking time in OW to do it.. same but even longer in combat. Because like I have said your talking Tons of stuff and even  a couple hundred guys on say an LGV that is a LOT of work.. if full that is 4800 tons.

 

  Things like small amounts of coins and notes .. sure you want to toss them.. that is simple.. 1000 Compass wood or Live oak logs? LOLOLOLOLOL 800 Hemp which I picture as 800 bales

Edited by CaptVonGunn

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What if you have the chance to throw *one* of your cargo holds into water and therefore get the opportunity to quit battle without timer?

The opponent can choose whether to collect the cargo or to quit too and chase afterwards you.

This should only be an option when in a trader ship.

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What if you have the chance to throw *one* of your cargo holds into water and therefore get the opportunity to quit battle without timer?

The opponent can choose whether to collect the cargo or to quit too and chase afterwards you.

This should only be an option when in a trader ship.

if only they could code this in this whole silly thread would not exist.

 

Also in game days last about 10 to 15 minutes I believe so every minutes in game equals about 2 hours?

Edited by Chromey

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 And there is another huge WTF in the game... being able to carry all the stuff to build a 1st rate in a 5th rate trader followed by a add water Poof have a 1st rate build in a few seconds:) SHips should take serious time to build 

 

You obviously have not built a 1st rate, there is a huge amount of labour hours involved and real hours to harvest resources, assemble components then to assemble the ship. At the end of the day you are looking at quite a few hours of work even if it only involves clicking, there are a lot of clicks :)

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Hi Folks!

It is not only a question abought game mechanics, it is also a question of shifty conduct and in general a question of general behavior in online games.

Sorry girls and boys it is NOT a propper mechanic, it is NOT realistic and it is NOT a kind behavior. 

It is just abought DENYING the success of an other player who was smarter than the "dumper". People can`t accept that they have been beaten or made a mistake. 
We have seen the same thing as it was possible to surrender just bevor sinking, denying the rewards for a kill.

People, this will be fixed shortly, but since then, please dont do it.
It is rude, childish and just stupid.

 

Edited by karotte

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It is not childish or rude it is simply a way to deny the enemy valuable materials/resources. The enemy/hunter still won by "forcing" the victim to get rid of his cargo.

 

Your enemies loss is your win.

Edited by Bommel

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I'm for the idea that you can't throw cargo unless at port or in the battle victory loot screen.

 

This plain and simple. Throw ships papers over the side thats about your lot. In a stern chase lasting hours maybe you could dispose of a little cargo just as naval ships could cast away guns but in game throwing your cargo away is imho griefing the player who actually bothered to pvp you. This is a PVP game right ?

 

It took hours to fill your hold with harbour side assistance in the form of dozens maybe hundreds of extra dock workers, gantries and using your own spars as lifting frames, obviously with reduced men available (Don't forget cargo ships carried barely enough men to sail the ship) unloading was done with the extra help at port. They didn't carry porters with them.

 

Using your own spars rigged for lifting obviously they aren;t being used as power for sailing so you would stop or be seriously slowed down.

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Thanks for confirming my post.

 

[...] is simply a way to deny the enemy valuable materials/resources. [...]

That is what I am talking about... It is a function, that never ever was planned to be used that way.  I know, that I will never convince you of my point of view, but please just take 1 sec to think about it...

You hunt a trader for 1 hour of your livetime to get a win of nothing just the certitude that your opponet lost something? This is not verry motivating...

Cheers Karotte 

Edited by karotte

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Thanks for confirming my post.

 

That is what I am talking about... It is a function, that never ever was planned to be used that way.  I know, that I will never convince you of my point of view, but please just take 1 sec to think about it...

You hunt a trader for 1 hour of your livetime to get a win of nothing just the certitude that your opponet lost something? This is not verry motivating...

Cheers Karotte 

I can assure you I thought about it for more than 1 second. ;)

I don´t think that every single trader dumps his cargo before being tagged, I never dumped any cargo at all.

And btw the only risk involved for the players who are hunting traders for profit alone is, that their prey might have no cargo on board or dumped it. It´s not like boarding or killing them is very challenging.

And the risk of running into enemy combat ships is the same as if you were looking for "real" PVP.

 

Doing a low risk activity but wanting high profit (or high chance of proift) doesn´t seem reasonable to me, even PVE Mission can be more challenging than this.

And to be clear I don´t want to belittle players who enjoy hunting traders or think they are carebears at all! I think it makes the game even more interesting.

 

PS: I completely agree on the fact that the delete function was never meant to be used for "dumping cargo".

Edited by Bommel

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It is not childish or rude it is simply a way to deny the enemy valuable materials/resources. The enemy/hunter still won by "forcing" the victim to get rid of his cargo.

 

Your enemies loss is your win.

 

 

Tell that to XVIII century  corsair who buys a letter of marque......... and  by that logic pirates were  (and are as today) only a group of anarchist against private propierty... 

 

 

 Problem is not that players dumps its valuables...not everyone of us precisely a chivalry knight,problem is that the game is allowing making this too easily when you know you are going to be intercepted, and that is nor historical plausible nor fun.

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