Minor port battle changes next patch

[Cragger]

I dont think you realize how many ex EVE players are playing this game. Yes I am very interested in map painting. Showing up with organized and unstoppable force that steam rolls your opponent because they are too scared to even undock is why I want to play this game. Nobody ever won a war by winning a close battle. You want to show your opponent that you have organizational skills to bring exactly 25 firsts in the battle, not one more or one less. You want to show them that you have industrial muscle to be able to replace those ships when they are lost. You dont just want to win and sink a few more ships than the opponent, you want to crush them until they dont even want to login the next day to defend. Thats how you win wars. 

 

Also all this talk about these or any other changes the devs could make would make anything more accessible to casual players. Why should it be? Why does someone who only logs in on a weekend and can barely crew their ship feel entitled to participate in a battle that was planned for days and weeks by dedicated players, players who play together every day, practice their lines, their communications, their fire focusing just for a chance to be able to show off their skills against a equally well prepared opponent. Any additional limits placed by the devs on top of existing 25 player limit will only serve to alienate the casual players in the eyes of the organized clans even more. Line battles with 1sts are very easy even for unskilled player to be effective in. Sail in line, dont crash into the guy infront and fire every now and then. Winning a frigate battle is a completely different story, skill will come into play a lot more. Skill that the casual player just doesnt have. Why should this player get in the battle ahead of skilled captain? There are plenty of things that a casual player can do in this game, but I dont think participating in port battles should be on the top of that list.

 

Have fun playing a game against no one then. And your eve comparison overlooks that when the big alliances no longer had anyone to fight they always fell apart.

[captain_andrey]

Have fun playing a game against no one then. And your eve comparison overlooks that when the big alliances no longer had anyone to fight they always fell apart.

That is the natural progression of any power. That is how it should be.

[Bigvalco]

Because its POSSIBLE to assemble full 25 fleets of 4th rates, its NOT possible for all factions to easily assemble a full 1st rate fleet.

 

 They all already do...

 

 And with a BR limit, you wouldn't need a full 25 first rates to win or even 25 4th rates. You would just need the better strategy.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Bigvalco

[James Cornelius]

 

 

The main difference in ship performance was crew and motivation related. (it is hard to manage 300+ men) and better leaders fought better even when their ship was worse. It is impossible to replicate crew management psychology and motivation without adding a football manager game and a lot of RNG removing skill (gunner fell on the blood during battle broke leg and started asking to send him back to his wife on land). 

 

Then what about introducing a crew veterancy mechanic at the very least? Renown for captains based on victories? Make it somewhat scalable based on ships or maybe attach only to the specific ship you are on?This would simulate the esprit d' corps that a crack ship's crew had where a lighter ship could defeat a heavier one and prompt people to stay in their "ace" Trincomalee instead of moving up to an Inger or Constitution.

[Scout]

I like the upcoming change but there is a rumor running a round talking a bout port wipes in this patch can place get a clear no or yarr from the dev´s on this coment ?

[EricKilla]

I like the upcoming change but there is a rumor running a round talking a bout port wipes in this patch can place get a clear no or yarr from the dev´s on this coment ?

Please. A single pirate clan is sweeping my country, and no one is defending because "Oh the ports are going to be wiped." I suspect a wipe may come with the diplomacy update, but who's to say for certain?

[Belize]

I like the upcoming change but there is a rumor running a round talking a bout port wipes in this patch can place get a clear no or yarr from the dev´s on this coment ?

 

As you said, Rumors...the wipe will come with the upcoming big changes in the war system/Diplo, and not in this minor patch.

[cmdrbobcito]

Regarding diversity of ships in PBs.  While the mechanics of the game's PB required the use of nothing more than armor and firepower, the 1st rates were/are kings. 

 

But why isn't that true in the open world?  Because, there are already too many variables and unknowns for the risk/benefit.  That's all that needs to be brought into the PB mechanics, i.e. variable wind, charted but variable sea depth and probable interdiction, enroute to the battle.

 

And as some have already mentioned...long wars are very expensive.  Attrition of all larger ships will be felt over time and lessons will be learned. 

 

Testing is all about seeing what works or doesn't work...let's test it and see, shall we?

[VonVolks]

 

In fact, the more expansive 1st rate are going to be, the more pack of full 25 Santissima you'll encounter, because this is the safest way to travel and not lose one of them. So you'll either see a full 25 Santissima, or none of them.

 

 

Nalyd,

 

Basically you just described Age of Sail fleet tactics. Guess what. The 1st and 2nd rates DIDN'T just go out for pleasure cruises they went out as the core of large battle fleets, and otherwise sat in dock a lot eating up money.

 

Also regarding the new rules. 1sts and SOLS down to 3rds will STILL have a major impact on any PB by being available as a defence fleet blocking access to a port for a PB invasion. Attackers will have to engage and clear out defensive forces before they can bring their port attack fleets into play, so this is a great way of opening more OW Fleet engagements and not just making SOLS for PBs only

Edited May 9, 2016 by VonVolks

[Nalyd]

Nalyd,

 

Basically you just described Age of Sail fleet tactics. Guess what. The 1st and 2nd rates DIDN'T just go out for pleasure cruises they went out as the core of large battle fleets, and otherwise sat in dock a lot eating up money.

 

Also regarding the new rules. 1sts and SOLS down to 3rds will STILL have a major impact on any PB by being available as a defence fleet blocking access to a port for a PB invasion. Attackers will have to engage and clear out defensive forces before they can bring their port attack fleets into play, so this is a great way of opening more OW Fleet engagements and not just making SOLS for PBs only

 

No, what I described is how a fleet that should be formed of mostly 3rd rate with a certain amount of 1st/2nd rate in a real age of sail fleet composition is, in this game, limited to 25 first rate almost all the time and how toying with the price won't change that fact or make a more mixed fleet.

I don't believe there is a single record of a fleet in which more than 50% of it was made out of 1st rate. 

[The Spud]

Would be more fun with a varried composition of fleet. Take a fixed composition of ships 1 x 1st rate 2 x 2nd rate 3 x 3rd rate 4 x 4th rate 5 x 5th rate 15 ships in total. So you know these will be allowed in the PB. The other 10 spots could be free (whatever you bring) or random ( example: 2 x 3rd rate, 6 x 5th rate, 1 x 1st rate , 1 x 4th rate). This would be totaly dull right now, but if they implement the fact you need to announce port battles in advance, you will have time to get the ships you need.

 

Additionaly I would find it cool if PB could have a commander. Someone not participating in the battle but who has an overview of the battle, and can group ships up to give them combined targets. So you could see you are added to the "Yellow Squad", and the target could be a tower or an enemy ship. To make it a bit more coordinated without the use of teamspeak. So clans will be less opposed to letting pubbies in as they can be informed of the used tactic.

[VonVolks]

Nalyd, in that case I agree with you about that. I had a thread much earlier back in the day before Steam release about how to prevent the game becoming 1st rate mania with nothing else being sailed.

 

1st should be special and terrifying to use, face and more importantly lose and not the default ship to sail.

 

I suggested if you lose a 1st rate you are demoted as the admiralty wouldn't be very happy with you!

[captain_andrey]

I would also support xp loss for sinking in a line ship. There should be another rank past rear admiral to act as xp buffer. Losing a santi should probably lose you 50k xp or so and maybe 5k for 3rd rate.

Its changes like this that would establish a natural balance of what ships are used in battle, not the artificial limits the devs are proposing.

[Scout]

Please. A single pirate clan is sweeping my country, and no one is defending because "Oh the ports are going to be wiped." I suspect a wipe may come with the diplomacy update, but who's to say for certain?

My worry´s are not a bout any nation or a guild getting some ports what we do see is players not logging on to the game because of the talks of wipes now for a bout a month or longer.

So my plea is that the dev´s see the harm of uncertainty and do some thing a bout it the can do that in a single precise statement. 

[Isink A Lot]

If we can make a change to 3 types of ports can we not make a change to 4 or 5  or even 6 types of ports? If we can do that what would the consensus be for ship sets for port battles?

 

Set 1 =1st rates (BR 900 ships)

Set 2 = 2nd & 3rd rates (BR 500 to 600 ships)

Set 3 = Constitutions & Ingermanland (BR 300 ships)

Set 4 = Essex, Trincomalee, Belle Poule, & Frigate (BR 170 to 200 ships)

Set 5 = Rnommee, Surprise, Niagara, & Cerberus (BR 100 to 140 ships)

Set 6 = Lynx, Cutter, Privateer, Pickle, Brig, Snow, Navy Brig, & Mercury (BR 20 to 70 ships)

 

Deep water would be 4 types using sets 1 to 4 with shallow two types using set 5 & 6. Is this something that is technically viable to do? Port type would be dependent on the amount of resources it produces or consumes? Would something like this work with the goal of every ship and any level captain could be useful in those port battles?

Edited May 9, 2016 by Isink A Lot

[Musuko42]

Why not just do as others have suggested; replace the 25 player limit with a BR limit? BR limits are already used in other areas of the game. Not only could this allow more variation in fleets, but might also encourage it; if you know your enemy is going to burn their whole BR limit to send in eight first-rates, your side might elect to send in 15 frigates to swarm them...which might then encourage the enemy to diversify their fleets the next time around to defend against that sort of tactic...and bingo, the game ends up tending towards fleets of varied ship sizes, which improves realism and improves inclusion; players who turn up in smaller ships are no-longer seen as screening fodder, but now can be useful additions to the assault fleet.

[captain_andrey]

Why not just do as others have suggested; replace the 25 player limit with a BR limit? BR limits are already used in other areas of the game. Not only could this allow more variation in fleets, but might also encourage it; if you know your enemy is going to burn their whole BR limit to send in eight first-rates, your side might elect to send in 15 frigates to swarm them...which might then encourage the enemy to diversify their fleets the next time around to defend against that sort of tactic...and bingo, the game ends up tending towards fleets of varied ship sizes, which improves realism and improves inclusion; players who turn up in smaller ships are no-longer seen as screening fodder, but now can be useful additions to the assault fleet.

A BR limit just like any limit will produce an optimal set of ships to bring to any battle, the current optimal set is 25 first rates, a br limit will produce an optimal set that people will bring over and over again. And if I am going to sail the same this every day to PB it might as well be a 1st rate.

[Shunziji]

Isnt it gonna be very easy to screen/defend outside a port when its not deep water?

If you gather a frigate fleet to attack a port, can't the defense just gather up a SoL fleet and reck the frigate fleet?

 

Historically, Ships of the Line were forbidden to attack frigates unless the frigate attacked first. 

 

Would it be possible to implement a mechanic (beside BR) that prevents a group with even only 1 Ship of the Line to attack a group filled only with frigates and lower in the OW ? Of course, the other way around would be allowed.

 

Obviously, once the requirements are met and the players load in a battle instance, it would be considered a full scale fight and SoL can aim at what ever ship is in front of their canon without restrictions.

 

Otherwise, if roles are not added to battle how the heck do you want to give any meaning to ships that used to serve only to scout ahead and around the fleet or carry orders and wounded in a situation where no orders are to be carried, no wounded are to be treated and scouting does not mean much in a closed arena ?!

[Black Knight the first]

PLZ rework that BP System i craftet 10! gold exceptional ships but still no f.. blueprint!

Please stick to the topic at hand.

A BR limit just like any limit will produce an optimal set of ships to bring to any battle, the current optimal set is 25 first rates, a br limit will produce an optimal set that people will bring over and over again. And if I am going to sail the same this every day to PB it might as well be a 1st rate.

I think you have the right of it- I don't think that there will be a paradigm shift until land and sea topography actually become a part of the port battle system. Any changes as far as restricting port zones or a BR system will just mean that someone or another will devise an optimal way to do the battle. I think the best thing to do right now is sit tight, watch what changes come, and test them. Hard to offer constructive solutions until we know what the port battle is actually going to wind up looking like.

[Quineloe]

A BR limit just like any limit will produce an optimal set of ships to bring to any battle, the current optimal set is 25 first rates, a br limit will produce an optimal set that people will bring over and over again. And if I am going to sail the same this every day to PB it might as well be a 1st rate.

It's obvious the best way to use a 25 ship limit is 25 first rates, as that provides most BR, most armor and most firepower, and maneuverability doesn't really matter because with that many first rates you can cover each other just too well. No thinking involved here.

 

Now assuming the BR limit is 11k, please tell us the optimal  setup to use this BR limit.

 

<crickets>

 

exactly, it will take a looooong time to figure out the ideal composition for this type of BR and it will constantly be challenged by different setups.

Historically, Ships of the Line were forbidden to attack frigates unless the frigate attacked first.

The frigate was also expected to strike her colours without a fight if it couldn't get away.

[Fastidius]

time to get rid of 4th rates from ports it would seem,  disposable connies are the new disposable 3rds

[Cragger]

It's obvious the best way to use a 25 ship limit is 25 first rates, as that provides most BR, most armor and most firepower, and maneuverability doesn't really matter because with that many first rates you can cover each other just too well. No thinking involved here.

 

Now assuming the BR limit is 11k, please tell us the optimal  setup to use this BR limit.

 

<crickets>

 

exactly, it will take a looooong time to figure out the ideal composition for this type of BR and it will constantly be challenged by different setups.

The frigate was also expected to strike her colours without a fight if it couldn't get away.

 

No he means in the line of battle. Frigates and other auxillary craft where vital to relaying signals, assisting ships that fell out of line and taking possession of ships that struck their colors. To facilitate this 'gentlemen' conduct both sides did not fire on ships not of the line unless fired on.

 

On the open sea however engagement was unrestricted. Any intelligent frigate captain would surrender (or his crew if he didn't in some navies) if escape was impossible against such an overwhelming opponent. 

[mechanist]

Feature that definitely will get in

 

Shallow water - will accept ships up to brigs

 

 

Brigs? Whats Brigs? Simple brigs, navybrigs or mercury accepted too? All 6th rate accepted?

[Quineloe]

time to get rid of 4th rates from ports it would seem,  disposable connies are the new disposable 3rds

 

 

Are you for real, you can't defeat a bunch of basic constitutions in crafted 3rd rates and better?

[Musuko42]

A BR limit just like any limit will produce an optimal set of ships to bring to any battle, the current optimal set is 25 first rates, a br limit will produce an optimal set that people will bring over and over again. And if I am going to sail the same this every day to PB it might as well be a 1st rate.

 

For the sake of argument, let's assume that the fates smile on my suggestion and the optimal configuration turns out to be roughly historically accurate; a few 1st rates, a majority of 3rds and large frigates, and a supporting smattering of speedy frigates and of mortar brigs. Let's also assume that you're right, and the same format is brought to every battle.

 

1: It'd be more historically accurate than 25 santis.

2: Even though the fleet composition would be the same each time, what each player gets to sail won't be; get bored of sailing a 1st rate and you can sail the next battle in a speedy frigate.

3: Turning up to the battle in a smaller ship won't be an automatic sentence to screening.

4: Someone joining in a cutter won't automatically keep another player out of the battle, stopping that particular trolling method.

5: Nations on the back foot would still be able to fight back; they may not be able to sail the optimal mixed fleet, but in the event of an emergency they could swarm a large fleet of smaller ships and fight a last-ditch battle that actually has a hope of winning.