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Minor port battle changes next patch

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But it is still better than only 140+ gun creep like right now

 

Guys - get reasonable and think things through. 

  • Current system only 1st rates are valid (only 2 choices in any port battle)
  • New system - at least some frigates and 4th rates will be useful (2x better than old one). And it gives choice to those who hate ships of the line. And dont like sailing them.

Comments that there are only going to be constitutions and ingers in some of the battles; Yes it might happen but it is a better situation compared to today. It is making consitutions and ingers and other heavy frigates finally viable in port battles which are not fit for ships of the line because of depth. 

 

Regarding ship differences

The only way to make all 135 best angle frigates viable is to make them all 12 knots and 5000 hp

If we go for at least some historical performance people will choose the ship with most guns and speed for OW and most guns and planking for PB.

Taking WW2 analogy - what is the point to drive Pz -2 with machine gun if everyone else drives a Panther

 

The main difference in ship performance was crew and motivation related. (it is hard to manage 300+ men) and better leaders fought better even when their ship was worse. It is impossible to replicate crew management psychology and motivation without adding a football manager game and a lot of RNG removing skill (gunner fell on the blood during battle broke leg and started asking to send him back to his wife on land). 

 

I agree with all that you said, but still feel that the system could be improved to include ALL ships of the line, instead of just 1st rates in Regional Capitals and 4th Rates in the rest of the Deep Water Ports.

My proposal is actually simple:

 

Split Deep Water Ports into further categories, so my proposal would look like this:

 

1. Shallow Water Ports: As suggested by admin Up To Brig

2. Deep Water Medium Draft: As suggested by admin, up to 4th Rate ships can dock and fight PB

3. Deep Water Deep Draft: Up to 2nd or 3rd Rates. (This could be further split up but these two types fight well together so would probably be used together)

4. Regional Capitals: As suggested by admin all ships, up to 1st rate can dock and fight PB

 

I would even add the different depths to the (as it is now with the shallows water ports) to the bays of the different ports and mark them as such on the map, so that it adds another layer of strategy to the map. And so that the different ships cant physically even approach the bay's of the shallower ports. I don't know how difficult it would be to code all this, but it can't be that hard as you already have shallow water ports and seas. 

 

Thank you.

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When the land comes into play I would like to see no Ship limitations based on port type, instead there should be a lot of shallow waters near certain ports with let's say just a narrow channel leading to the port. Capture zones then can be placed on those shallows so only smaller ships can get in. That way Larger ships can't get to the capture zones and it would be a task for smaller ones. 1-3 rates then could just blocade the port, firing from afar using open waters or try to attack using that narrow channel risking to be out manuvered.
Basically it should be up to players what ship they bring in, however terrain near every port should be a huge factor in choosing attack fleet composition, even to the point when attacking some ports with huge ships is just impossible. 

I think this way not only the problem of too many large ships in PB can be addressed,  but every port attack would require different tactics and would be unique experience for the players.

 

I could see a lot of variety in that... lets say we have we can have different capture zones placed in deep or shallow waters, we can have ports where SOLs can attack from affar but can't get into capture zones, or they can capture one zone when rest would be a task for smaller ships or maybe they can get to one of the zones but the channel is so narrow that they couldn't really maneuver there... a lot of things can be done just by map design. 

Edited by Wyspa

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Well that is just not true and if you really beleive what you are saying here then you are making game mechanic changes based on false information. If your nation or clan only plans to take one port in the time slot then sure they bring their best ships. Most major offensives would involve multiple attacks and screening battles where lower rate ships are very well used. If you want frigates to be viable in the port battle itself then make them actually viable instead of forcing people to sail ships they dont want to sail. On top of this 4rth rates are currently disposable ships with connies being aquireable from the ai shop. The scafters are being shafted again. Why would anyone use crafted ships costing 4 high level notes when you can have virtually free ones. This will be disposable 3rd rate spam all over again only these ships will have 4 dura.

you are talking about the outside

i am talking about the inside (once battle started)

inside the battle with all other things being equal you need 25 first rates right now to win (if both sides have equal skill)

 

and your proposal "if you want frigates to be viable then make them viable" is ridiculous and does not belong here on the forum!

I AM making them viable creating a greenhouse - space  for them where only frigates participate. You on the other hand propose NOTHING to make them viable.

 

Here is a challenge for you

Propose 3 ideas to make frigates viable in a port battle consisting of 25 first rates, without limiting the entry rights, without talking about depths and without creating additional goals done specifically for frigates (because it is not going to make them more viable it will just force people to pick frigates as they wont be able to win the PB without them. 

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What do you think of this idea.

 

http://i.imgur.com/Jzavwsh.png

 

BR might not even matter if ships can enter and leave various rooms. Instead its more of a multihour siege that requires goals to be accomplished and various types of ships to work together.

 

here is what i think of this proposal

zVC0Mym.jpg

Your idea does not describe the ? part

all ports have different harbors. where, how victory conditions,

who places markers, how this is all interconnected on servers, ai coding, routes.

the idea is only great when a. its sounds awesome b. can be implemented (the @?@ part is clear and can be done) 

 

 

simple solutions solving 80% problems are better than unfinished awesome things

nwZ2Xdq.jpg

your proposal is the car without wheels - impossible to implement 

we are making a 1 or 2 with a smiley face

 

thus

to make frigates viable = make some battles frigate only - simple, works, creates no confusion, gives options. 

 

also remember the general perspective guys

  • 800 users participated in port battles last month
  • 20000 users logged in and played

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Haha, this is why I love the devs of this game.

 

shots fired.

 

To be honest frigates are very viable outside of Port Battles, inside them I really can't see how you could make them stand up against a 25 1st Rate fleet within the confines of the Age of Sail setting. Things like tackling, disabling, stunning, and other MMO status effects would be useful to put on the smaller and more nimble ships like Frigates (and give them a purpose in PBs), but obviously that doesn't work very well here if we're staying true to the setting. I'd considered weather being a factor that benefits smaller ships more (or varying degrees of shallows to give smaller ships more maneuverability) to consider bringing frigates, but those are monumental tasks to undertake and for the moment the upcoming PB changes are sufficient to me.

 

Also laser towers chew up frigates like no tomorrow, which is another huge strike against bringing frigates to PBs at the moment.

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While I think many of us would agree that underwater topography would be the ultimate way to go with this, let's give what the devs have come up with a shot and see what is good and bad. Rome wasn't built in a day, gang. I, personally, am pretty excited to get real forts and land at this point. Remember, it's a small team.

Edited by Vernon Merrill

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Maybe if normal deep water pb only allows up to 5th rates would be slighty better. You would have to choose between the renomee, essex, trincomalee, belle poule, frigate and pirate frigate. More choices would be cool.

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The ships the attacker will have in current situation:

1st rates 25

 

The ships the defender will have in current situation:

1st rates 25

 

How do port battles look currently?

TXxj67x.png

 

So, let’s look at the goals in the ideal port battle.

 

The inherent goal of the attacker is:

Attacking the fortifications

Taking the capture zones

Destroying the defenders

 

The inherent goal of the defender is:

Defend the fortifications (optional)

Defending the capture zones

Destroying the attackers

 

What features are in the port battle:

Heavier fortifications

Capture zones

The raiding of resources (Only in raid battle, see end of post)

Land in battles, including shallows.

 

How does this look like in the battle itself?

MvIn87z.jpg

Land is green, shallows are lighter blue

 

When including the fortifications and capture zones:

bKaQdOX.jpg

Red circles indicate the zones, the yellow squares the fortifications

 

So, what does this to the fleet composition?

Fortifications -> Attackers will bring mortar brigs -> defender will bring frigates to attack mortar brigs-> attacker will bring frigates for defending the mortar brigs.

 

Shallows -> Deep drafted ships can only operate in certain areas -> the usage of shallower draft ships.

 

So, what does the fortification do to the fleet composition?

 

The ships the attacker will have in current situation:

1st rates 17

Frigates 5

Mortar brigs 3

The ships the defender will have in current situation:

1st rates 18

Frigates 7

 

When shallows are taken into the calculation, the usage of 4th rates and 3rd rates will increase.

 

The ships the attacker will have in current situation:

1st rates 10

3rd/4th rates 7

Frigates 5

Mortar brigs 3

The ships the defender will have in current situation:

1st rates 12

3rd/4th rates 6

Frigates 7

 

When raiding of resources is also taken into account, this will result in the following:

 

The ships the attacker will have in current situation:

1st rates 10

3rd/4th rates 6

Frigates 4

Indiamen 3

Mortar brigs 2

 

The end result is a very tactical approach to a currently linear engagement. The attacker can position himself for the most optimal appoach, whilst the defender is incentivized to sally with the frigs to take down the MB's. Also the fleetcomposition plays a massive role in the strength in battle, no longer will 1st rate on dominate.The whole cat-mouse game starts there and then. :)

 

 

For more extensive and detailed proposition regarding the draft of ships in this game, look here:

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/12020-redefining-deepshallow-ports/

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Maybe one solution to make imperative bringing several types of ships is making the forts a bit deadly (which is historically accurate). Those forts have to be at fire range of the conquerable zones.

 

As a attacker you will need to sail mortar brigs to destroy the forts. As mortar brigs fires at distance you probably have to deploy frigates near to protect them while your line ships go to conquer or destroy the enemy fleet. Why do you need to do this tactic? Because the defender is getting victory points due to being close to the conquerable zones.

 

As a defender you will need fast ships to intercept and sink those mortar brigs and probably some heavy frigates to tank the enemy fire while the light frigates sink the mortar brigs. If you suceed destroying the mortar brigs maybe with the combined firepower of the forts and your fleet the enemy must fall back if they dont want to lose a good amount of ships. Or maybe the enemy is just a bit stubborn and fights until the end and conquers the port.

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Here is a challenge for you

Propose 3 ideas to make frigates viable in a port battle consisting of 25 first rates, without limiting the entry rights, without talking about depths and without creating additional goals done specifically for frigates (because it is not going to make them more viable it will just force people to pick frigates as they wont be able to win the PB without them. 

 

Goal: make 1st rates expensive to run (as real world), rare (as real world), and only used occasionally, and with great care (as real world)

 

1: Require crew to be hired, fed, and for widows to be paid when they die, meaning larger crews are expensive to maintain, and even more expensive to lose (as per the other thread about this subject).

2: This one seems unpopular when I've mentioned it before, so perhaps it only applies to line ships; cause players to lose XP if they lose a ship. The larger the ship lost, the greater the hit. Real captains who lost a first rate were, I imagine, less likely to be offered command of one again. If you lose a 1st rate in the game, you may lose ranks to the point where you'll need to work up to getting one again.

3: When officers are implemented, require numerous, or high-quality officers to run larger ships effectively. Without them, the ship's functions (sails, reloads, etc) will be slower. Perhaps, if you really skimp on officers, you may find the crew mutiny in the face of the enemy, stopping you dead in the water, surrendering, or turning the ship to flee.

 

Those are my three suggestions.

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Making 1st rates expensive to run is not the same as making frigates viable in the same scenarios.

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Making 1st rates expensive to run is not the same as making frigates viable in the same scenarios.

 

Are you going to explain why not?

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Yes.

 

Let's suppose a player does not play 1st rates. He plays frigates.

 

Making the 1st rates more expensive ( to make frigates viable...)  has no effect for him as he already plays frigates all the time all the way, yet he likes the changes that are announced where frigates can have their use in Conquest battles.

 

Yet this player would enjoy to have battles where all rates would be able to play to their strengths. There will be Regional Capitals but these will be full of 1st rates.

 

Given Admin requested a original way to make frigates viable in a battle where 1st rates are also present and without resorting to specific frigate objectives nor (sadly) using shallows how come the only thing that could be shown was... to make 1st rates this and that... !?

 

It is a good request from the devs.

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Yes.

 

Let's suppose a player does not play 1st rates. He plays frigates.

 

Making the 1st rates more expensive ( to make frigates viable...)  has no effect for him as he already plays frigates all the time all the way, yet he likes the changes that are announced where frigates can have their use in Conquest battles.

 

Yet this player would enjoy to have battles where all rates would be able to play to their strengths. There will be Regional Capitals but these will be full of 1st rates.

 

Given Admin requested a original way to make frigates viable in a battle where 1st rates are also present and without resorting to specific frigate objectives nor (sadly) using shallows how come the only thing that could be shown was... to make 1st rates this and that... !?

 

It is a good request from the devs.

 

Okay, I can see where you're coming from. I'll try to clarify what I was aiming at. In short, my answer is to make it almost impossible...or at the very least, extremely risky...to fill a port battle up entirely with first rates, encouraging players to use other ships types instead, hopefully meaning your frigate captain can join the battles without expecting to be hopelessly outclassed.

 

I guess the flaw in this idea is there'll always be some super-motivated clans who won't let the additional cost and effort stop them, and will get their 25 first rates anyway.

Edited by Musuko42

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Also, making 1st rate more expansive doesn't change anything in the long run.

You'll need 3 months instead of 1 to build your deathball of 25 Santissima from scratch, then what ? They'll still piss in the mouth of hundreds and hundreds of frigates before you could even destroy one of them in a port battle.

In fact, the more expansive 1st rate are going to be, the more pack of full 25 Santissima you'll encounter, because this is the safest way to travel and not lose one of them. So you'll either see a full 25 Santissima, or none of them.

 

Now talking about your point 2 and 3.

Like I said a deathball of Santissima will utterly destroy hundreds of frigates before you even manage to get 1 of them. Mainly because the game force you to fight 25vs25 and snatch away one of the 2 only advantage normally given to a weaker force which is supposed to be numerical advantage. The other advantage which is their speed/maneuverability also being non existant because the point of a port battle will soon become to "take and hold" your position. Emphasize on the "hold" part where running away and guerrilla tactics won't work.

So yeah, for 1 player losing XP/officiers/crew on a 1st rate, you made 25 frigate's captains lose XP/officiers/crew multiple time on their 5th rate.

 

In the end who's on the short end of the stick ?

Edited by Nalyd

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But it is still better than only 140+ gun creep like right now

 

Guys - get reasonable and think things through. 

  • Current system only 1st rates are valid (only 2 choices in any port battle)
  • New system - at least some frigates and 4th rates will be useful (2x better than old one). And it gives choice to those who hate ships of the line. And dont like sailing them.

Comments that there are only going to be constitutions and ingers in some of the battles; Yes it might happen but it is a better situation compared to today. It is making consitutions and ingers and other heavy frigates finally viable in port battles which are not fit for ships of the line because of depth. 

 

Regarding ship differences

The only way to make all 135 best angle frigates viable is to make them all 12 knots and 5000 hp

If we go for at least some historical performance people will choose the ship with most guns and speed for OW and most guns and planking for PB.

Taking WW2 analogy - what is the point to drive Pz -2 with machine gun if everyone else drives a Panther

 

The main difference in ship performance was crew and motivation related. (it is hard to manage 300+ men) and better leaders fought better even when their ship was worse. It is impossible to replicate crew management psychology and motivation without adding a football manager game and a lot of RNG removing skill (gunner fell on the blood during battle broke leg and started asking to send him back to his wife on land). 

The part that is better with this is the fact that lower rank captains will be able to participate in PB, witch specially in a testing stage is good on that i agree. But as you said they will always choose to sail the best that they can so why not limit the availability, be it through remaking crafting so that everyone can craft only the most basic ships, and get rare one time use BP's by some means to craft any better ships, or making them so resource intensive that people will actually start to reconsider whether its better to field 15 frigates or 1 1sr rate. Another popular option from the forums would be to add shallows, though that i would imagine would require quite extensive work so i guess it wont be here to soon even if you decide to implement them, but if you actually make punishing shallows, like not the open world kinda shallows where you stop but, actual shallows where you would wreck or get stuck in your big ass ships if you didnt pay attention, then in these kind of Ports i would assume smaller ships would become quite more useful.

 

But as i said in terms of more ships used it changes very little, but gives access for more people to try this feature out, so its not a bad change, it just doesn't affect the core diversity of ships that get used by that big of a margin. The negative thing about this change for me personally seems that, after you made NPC ships uncap-able, last week, i felt for the first time at least a hint of war attrition, big as British clans that have well established crafting branches were contacting outside crafters cause they could not keep up their production with the losses, now when you change the meta so that 80% of the ports require ships that take 2 times less labor hours to craft, at the same time having 4 lives instead of one, at the same time reducing the frequency of port battles (this in itself is a good thing, since all people were getting burned out but 20 port battles a day, but it does at up to the problem im pointing out), you are returning to a point where attrition is once again non existent.

 

To sum it up i would much rather prefer Line ships being limited by - Crafting (needs an entire crafting system overhaul though); Expenses (needs an economy overhaul, inflation has reached such a level in pvp1 that i stoped selling stuff for gold in most cases of how useless and easily acquired it is); Actual gameplay limitation (needs an entire battle map, game mechanics overhaul).  

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you are talking about the outside

i am talking about the inside (once battle started)

inside the battle with all other things being equal you need 25 first rates right now to win (if both sides have equal skill)

 

and your proposal "if you want frigates to be viable then make them viable" is ridiculous and does not belong here on the forum!

I AM making them viable creating a greenhouse - space  for them where only frigates participate. You on the other hand propose NOTHING to make them viable.

 

Here is a challenge for you

Propose 3 ideas to make frigates viable in a port battle consisting of 25 first rates, without limiting the entry rights, without talking about depths and without creating additional goals done specifically for frigates (because it is not going to make them more viable it will just force people to pick frigates as they wont be able to win the PB without them. 

 

 You can make them viable with a BR limit that doesn't allow people to use 25 1st rates in the battle.

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Provisions and crew replenishment will probably solve a lot of this stuff. It will be difficult feeding 1k crew per ship while trying to get to enemy ports. Not to mention if crew deaths were counted per ship sunk then players might really give it some thought on what to bring to the battle.

 

edit: oh and variable winds too

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 You can make them viable with a BR limit that doesn't allow people to use 25 1st rates in the battle.

 

read: without limiting the entry rights

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What will happen with ships and outpost after this patch ? Example, in Samerset i have 1st rate and outpost, after patch i will lose it ?

Edited by DEK

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you are talking about the outside

i am talking about the inside (once battle started)

inside the battle with all other things being equal you need 25 first rates right now to win (if both sides have equal skill)

 

Here is a challenge for you

Propose 3 ideas to make frigates viable in a port battle consisting of 25 first rates, without limiting the entry rights, without talking about depths and without creating additional goals done specifically for frigates (because it is not going to make them more viable it will just force people to pick frigates as they wont be able to win the PB without them. 

 

 

also remember the general perspective guys

  • 800 users participated in port battles last month
  • 20000 users logged in and played

 

 

I think we may be trying to solve the wrong problem.  

 

It's great to ask how to make Frigates more viable inside a port battle.  The better question would be why are we so focused just on inside the port battle itself where your options are severely limited when you say things like entry limits, water depth, gamey objectives, etc are all off the table.  Isn't it telling that only 800/20,000 participated?  That is the problem that needs addressing.  This problem will get even worse when you slow the amount of port battles that can happen.

 

If you can create an environment where the port battle isn't ONLY about what happens inside the 25v25 battle instance but also what happens leading up to it, how it is triggered in the first place, etc. then you have an opportunity to both increase the ratio of players that can participate in the first place as well as the level of investment the player base feels in the success/outcome of a port battle even if they weren't in the last 25v25 battle itself.  Your opportunity to expand the number and types of ships that are needed to make that happen is much more flexible as well.

 

There have already been some concrete suggestions along these lines.  As I've said elsewhere in my feedback, we get so caught up in the specifics of a given mechanic we lose sight of the bigger picture and how different mechanics need to work together as part of broader gameplay.

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read: without limiting the entry rights

 

 You can still bring in a first rate, just that it takes up a larger chunk of the team than a frigate would.

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read: without limiting the entry rights

 

The BR limit is not "limiting the entry rights". In fact it's quite the opposite since it makes a wider range of people able to participate without feeling like utter trash if they don't use the best ship.

 

a limitation to the entry rights is something that flush out/only concerns a certain category of players.

 

The BR limit is something that would apply to everybody no matter if you started to play or if you were there for the last 4 months.

Just like the hard cap of 25vs25 which also applies to all, this rule won't change because you're a veteran or a newbie.

 

If you want to see what a real limitation to the entry rights is, take a look at the announced port system with deep/shallow/regional water where you can't participate unlike other players if you don't own the right ship for a port in particular.

 

To make a parallel with the real world, just because a rollercoaster only have 30 seats available or a maximum weight charge of 2400kg doesn't limit anybody to use it (well, unless you alone weight more than 2400kg but you should probably be more concerned about your health than getting in a rollercoaster at this point). You'll get in eventually if you're patient enough, nobody else is more or less entitled than you to use it.

However specifying that you need to be taller than 1m40 to get onboard is something that'll alter entry rights for a certain category of people.

Edited by Nalyd

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I disagree with any artificial mechanic to limit ship sizes in battle. There should be tactical reason to bring smaller ships eg shallow capture point, low winds or capture point that is significantly upwind from starting position.

The high cost can limit the dominance of 1- rates, its appearance in the battle should cause fear and respect.
Sorry for my bad english
 

Goal: make 1st rates expensive to run (as real world), rare (as real world), and only used occasionally, and with great care (as real world)

 

1: Require crew to be hired, fed, and for widows to be paid when they die, meaning larger crews are expensive to maintain, and even more expensive to lose (as per the other thread about this subject).

 

 

 I entirely support your idea!

Edited by Red October

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The BR limit is not "limiting the entry rights". In fact it's quite the opposite since it makes a wider range of people able to participate without feeling like utter trash if they don't use the best ship.

 

a limitation to the entry rights is something that flush out/only concerns a certain category of players.

 

The BR limit is something that would apply to everybody no matter if you started to play or if you were there for the last 4 months.

Just like the hard cap of 25vs25 which also applies to all, this rule won't change because you're a veteran or a newbie.

 

If you want to see what a real limitation to the entry rights is, take a look at the announced port system with deep/shallow/regional water where you can't participate unlike other players if you don't own the right ship for a port in particular.

 

To make a parallel with the real world, just because a rollercoaster only have 30 seats available or a maximum weight charge of 2400kg doesn't limit anybody to use it (well, unless you alone weight more than 2400kg but you should probably be more concerned about your health than getting in a rollercoaster at this point). You'll get in eventually if you're patient enough, nobody else is more or less entitled than you to use it.

However specifying that you need to be taller than 1m40 to get onboard is something that'll alter entry rights for a certain category of people.

BR limit will simply mean people still take the most powerful ship in each class. It is also not conducive to interesting battles where good strategy can mean you do have more power than the enemy. The most boring battles are in fact the ones where both sides are perfectly equal. So many games get so repetitive because you know that the other side will be made up of almost exactly the same weight as you. Regardless of your sides open world strategy or intended tactics. Regardless of whether you are defending, attacking or raiding. It's boring and another reason NOT to balance ships but instead to use incentives (notice I did not say the word incentivise). To have a captain love his\her ship even though it's the equivalent of the millenium falcon, a piece of well loved and nurtured junk that has got you out of trouble many times.... through your own brain power and planning!

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