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Ship role, comparisons of vessels and wind strength

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Re the additional proposals. Like the idea of increasing the broadside tankyness and, to an extent, compacting ship hitpoints. Wouldn't take it too far though or we run the risk of ending up in a situation where ships simply feel rather generic and choice (within a rating/class) simply comes down to 'which looks the best'. Chasers I have mixed feelings about for the reasons given in the post above.

 

I'd definitely like the increase in broadside strength in tandem with an increased relevance for 'critical' hits and damage, especially if you can implement that with officers. A lucky shot which takes out several officers, for example, should drastically reduce a ship's fighting efficiency.

Edited by Ratline

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Dont like the chaser idea. I would sacrifice realism for playability here. It adds some kind of rock, paper, scissors mechanics which leads to a higher diversity in the ships used

Rock, paper, scissors?

 

I would describe it as scissors vs. turd, which is not quite as good a game...

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Personally i'm very fond of bow chasers. Be it the Trinco's 4 or the Consti's 2. 

And i think it would be a shame to remove them alltogether..

 

However, i support the idea of a distance based tagging system as that would make ships without chasers a valid option.

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Yes, chaser ships have an advantage with being able to damage ships as they pursue but it would be good that really fast ships didn't need to "tag" to keep a ship in a fight. I. E an distance escape circle that meant no count down timer starts? Currently you can be gaining on a ship hand over fist but it can still "escape"

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Exactly. The damage threshold for tagging should be increased to require more than 2 sail hits. Then the battle timer can be re-balanced to suit ships that lack chasers. Then we'll have historical chasers that aren't ahistorically vital to chases.

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Exactly. The damage threshold for tagging should be increased to require more than 2 sail hits. Then the battle timer can be re-balanced to suit ships that lack chasers. Then we'll have historical chasers that aren't ahistorically vital to chases.

 

well actually i mean more that chasing should be distance based, and that chasers would just allow a chaser or chasee to do damage in the meantime. so a good tag in a fast ship, you could just ejhad straight for enemy at best speed an hope to close distance to "engagement range" so the couldn't escape, rather than having to get a ship with chasers to allow constant tagging...

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Its an old maturin proposal and we might have time to consider implementing it.

 

Wind strength was important in the age of sail

 

In the very strong wind frigate could be slower than any slowest line ship

In the very light wind any brig could sail faster than trincomalee at any angle

 

To make all ships valuable global wind strength can be implemented as server weather condition 

  • Wind strength will change over time and captains will be able to see the weather projection for a couple of days ahead in the lobby
  • If light winds are coming there is no point to sail a heavy frigate - well there is a point but you won't be able to catch anyone because any brig will be faster.
  • In heavy winds ships of the line will be faster than frigates 

Speed will become a lesser factor and captain will need to adjust and pick more weatherly ships which can universally sail in varied wind conditions. It will allow to differentiate ships more and make unpopular ships - more popular

 

(another gameplay related thing is to remove chasers from all ships ;) or add them to all ships (even if they don't exist on the model)

 

 

 

additional proposals on differentiating ships are

  • compacting hp (ships were not so relatively weak and redoubtable was able to withstand fire from 3 british lineships with no problem)
  • increasing roles of critical damage and hits
  • much stronger ability of the broadside to tank damage.

 

 

 

I m a pvp player and i realy dont think its a good idea to add wind strenght in order to give possibility for bigger vessels to hunt and in the same time give them chassers !

you just add complexity and not add new gameplay because there will be always a better ship to sail in stronger win and the same in slower one ! 

this will just add complexity .

this will not avoid the fact that some ship are better in some way . yes there is better ship to take in order to hunt but also there is better one in order to make line fight and same for turning fight. and so ! 

However just lets player play one kind of ship for eatch rank !! 

 

in the same time you want to add the crew systeme and what will happen when the wind will be better for bigger ship like victory and santi and then all player will play them this day and lose them ? 

they will be not able to sail again until next day!! BIG PROBLEM

 

I hope this will help you to think about it ! 

 

see you in open sea captains 

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I really like the idea of the implementation of various wind strenghts, various ships would be used again and it'more dynamic gameplay.

but the chasers should be available for all ships who has the abililty to hoist them up the front deck. As some people suggested, it would be a great idea to remove the 1 or 2 guns from the upperdecks from port and starboard side and place them on the front deck. This would take some time and Guncrew and the loss of 1 or 2 guns on the sides of the ship ofcourse, how much time and crew that is a matter of balance. And siphon the crew from guncrew into survival or repair slot?

But i am against a total removal of chasers. I don't know where this strange idea comes from in the first place? I hope it is not coming from people who are getting kept in battle because of the chasers keeping them there, thats where they are designed for.

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(another gameplay related thing is to remove chasers from all ships  ;) or add them to all ships (even if they don't exist on the model)

 

This is a strange idea ! I don't like it, stay in an historical approach and don't modifiy ships historical settings and spécifications. If you haven't chase canon, sail with a friend with a chaser ship.

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(another gameplay related thing is to remove chasers from all ships ;) or add them to all ships (even if they don't exist on the model)

 

 

Why not have a captain decide whether he want to move two of his broadside guns over to the stern or the bow during a battle?

Captains would take guns from the broadside and move them to the bow when chasing down a target, and move them to the stern when trying to run away.

 

Let all ships start a battle with only their broadside guns. Then with a time and crew penalty the gun can be moved to the bow or the stern if so wished on any ship.

Not sure how you would implement the visuals for this though.

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I think that there should not be any calm or super light wind in the instance. If you manage to intercept on the OW then it must be assumed you did it using wind, so wind there must be. (saves gameplay too).

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Its an old maturin proposal and we might have time to consider implementing it.

 

Wind strength was important in the age of sail

 

In the very strong wind frigate could be slower than any slowest line ship

In the very light wind any brig could sail faster than trincomalee at any angle

 

To make all ships valuable global wind strength can be implemented as server weather condition 

  • Wind strength will change over time and captains will be able to see the weather projection for a couple of days ahead in the lobby
  • If light winds are coming there is no point to sail a heavy frigate - well there is a point but you won't be able to catch anyone because any brig will be faster.
  • In heavy winds ships of the line will be faster than frigates 

Speed will become a lesser factor and captain will need to adjust and pick more weatherly ships which can universally sail in varied wind conditions. It will allow to differentiate ships more and make unpopular ships - more popular

 

(another gameplay related thing is to remove chasers from all ships ;) or add them to all ships (even if they don't exist on the model)

 

 

 

additional proposals on differentiating ships are

  • compacting hp (ships were not so relatively weak and redoubtable was able to withstand fire from 3 british lineships with no problem)
  • increasing roles of critical damage and hits
  • much stronger ability of the broadside to tank damage.

 

 

Thats wonderfull!

 

i really would like to see that, as a sailor i know how you bump and jump in small ships while the bigger ones aren't in trouble 

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Chasers need a serious rework to make all ships viable option.

Moving some broadside guns to bow chasing position is actually historical, and would reduce the gap between some ships, while, with a reduced angle of fire, still give ships with real Chasers an advantage.

Compacting HP : much needed also. Never understood why a frigate could be so weak versus a trincomalee, when historically their strength and structure would be roughly the same. Major differences between ship of the same ranks in those days were mainly about speed, maneuverability and rigging quality (as well as balancing ballast to tweak speed for different wind position).

Wind differentiating speed : well nice idea, but for gameplay reason (due to time compression) the buff or penalty should be minor, giving an advantage on a long chase, but not game changing for a head on battle.

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My thoughts on making more ships have roles in large fleet and PR actions would be to change the aiming system to allow a clearer view of the cannons convergence to target, making the convergence selectable with the mouse wheel to make tighter or more open by scrolling up or down when aiming, and change the armor from being simply 4 sides to  being zones along the forecastle and sides. An example being the Vicotry or Santisma, the planking sections between each knee having its own localized armor rating and damaged based on vertical height above the keel, so defeat or leaks below the water line, at it, or above allowed flooding based on heel, and penetration threw it with followup shots to damage cannons, crew, and the opposite side of armor based on trajectory and angle of attack while incorporating interior ricochet or deflection with decks and internal structure.

 

To make frigates and other non SoL viable allow more cannon angle forward and rearward, so a straight sided trinc or connie for example could swing guns to a greater angle than SoL, smaller cannons and different cannon types could have more swing based on historical canon carriage sizes since smaller ones would be less crammed into the hull. this would allow greater angle of attack and would let them utilize maneuvering into battle formations to counter line tactics in interesting ways. Letting them dart into formations and concentrate their shot on small sections of a SoL they could have great impact. Rounded side hull ships like a Belle Poule would be a little less able to angle tight due to the forward and rearward angle of the gun ports due to the curvature of the hull but still better than the large guns of a SoL. Here is a poorly rendered example.

Slide1.jpg

The blue ships being frigates or 4th rates firing in a neat formation against SoLs, the puple ship being a curved hull ship like a Belle, showing the max spread as well as tight spread and them targeting as a group a small section of a SoL concentrating dmg to great effect whereas the front SoL could not concentrate his shot enough to have them all hit the frigates on the right, but could go wide enough to partially hit two of them, though the dmg is widely spread among its sections.

 

Slide2.jpg

 

Here is am example of a squad of frigates using their speed to dart ahead of their friendly line and maneuvering to target shots on the Bow and front most section of a SoL then maneuvering away staying out of the firing angles of the enemy

 

Slide3.jpg

Here is a possible move after the first broadside where the maneuver back around and dart between the friendly line to fire more broadsides partway through the enemy line and break through separating them firing both broadsides to the bow and a stern rake, each frigate doing good damage to a weak section of a SoL

 

If leak models changed to make speed and tack to wind effect the flooding rate, and repairs could be localized to sections or you could select which sections to concentrate on it would make it more dynamic and historic. if the lead ship had to slow down to reduce the rate of flooding as their bow was damaged, their whole line would have to slow as well. The french used this tactic frequently, damaging the rigging of a lead ship so the whole line had to slow allowing for a leeward escape or advantage to be utilized.  Yes I know the sectional damage modeling and coding will take a lot of time, but changing the aiming system and ships fire angles is a lot easier. baby steps that could lead to groups wanting a squadron of something other than the biggest ship they can enter with though if they can focus fire rigging/masts/sails/bow/sterns in the meantime while we wait for compacted HP and sectional damage/armor

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Weather impact in OW & Battles - very appreciated!

 

Just a question - is there a chance to bring in damage to ships due weather?

Even a SOL should not set full sails in a storm without losing a mast and very small ships caught open sea in a storm could sink.

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For me, all the wind aspect is quite thrilling and I'll love it for sure as it would enhance the need for skill and the buty of a good combat and low wind or calm time could be a complete trap for big ships and small ships could have some oar to move quickly in good position (Xebec...)

 

For the chasers I think we should be able to move them to front and back but for exemple any ship should have a different maximum amount of front chasers from 1 for narrow boats like merc or maybe cutter(maybe 0 for this one as it is good for the start to have simple control) to like 4 for the natural chasers or maybe 6 if there is the place and the bridge can withstand it.

 

The choice could be done at beginning of battle for number of chasers with no time laps (maybe before intering the battle as sometimes with a not so fast pc/internet when you actually enter battle it has already begun) or during the battle with time laps

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They restrict pvp ships. By adding them to all ships we open doors to new adventures. 

 

Here is my suggestion:

 

- To mount Chaser guns it takes time, 2 mins let's say. (Once moved it's permanent during battle).

- Loose 2 guns from actual Gundeck

I think that would be a very fair compromise to lose a Gundeck gun for every gun used as a chaser

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I think that would be a very fair compromise to lose a Gundeck gun for every gun used as a chaser

It  should depend for exemple for ingermanland you have 2 chasers in weather deck and also 2 in top deck so for each movement to front deck you should loose 2 guns on each deck and not 4 on weather deck (my opinion)

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Love the wind strength dynamic.

High wind high seas often necessitated lower gun deck closure to avoid sinking. That would be a game changer.

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Any word on studded sails for use in light winds? and possible damaging sails from having too much up in heavy winds?

 

Image43.gif

Edited by The MetaBaron

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This all looks good to me, but I'm conerned about one thing if this comes into the game.

 

And that would be the amount of ships you can have at one port. If you need 3-4 ships ready, depending on what wind it will be, small ship, medium ship, SOLs etc, together with maybe 1-2 traders, wich also will be affected by the wind, then I think we need to be allowed to store more ships in one port, either as it is now, or in a dockyard or something similar. Maybe one will be able to buy more slots for storing ships etc.

 

Even today, I think the amount of ships you can have in one port is just about enough, sometimes I wish I had room for more. Especially if you want to have a big ship for fleeting/PBs, a fast smaller ship for PvP/trader hunting, a Hauler for your cargo, enough room to capture and send trader ships back, even crafting 1-2 ships.

 

So I would be more than happy if the devs would adress the amount of ships you can have in one port sooner or later, in some way, even though if it cost money to get more ship slots.

 

Thanks.

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I would say sailing with one ship and adopt your way of sailing to the wind would make more sense then, instead of having 6 ships for every wind strenght and direction.

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Chasers have less use, if the ship are positioned closer to each other, already at the beginning of the battle.

 

Reinforcements, are coming from rather far.  Once again, bring them closer and chasers are once again less important.

 

I think that chasers are good as those are.  The other ships could get other benefits.  For example maybe the bow and stern could be simply stronger if there are no gun ports.

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Nice idea for wind but its Heavy Sea that will slow frigate hulls. and perhaps you can add a stress value for hoisting too much canvas in heavy wind with the possibility of mast damage. As for adding chaser or taken them away, the answers is no no no. You just have the mechanics setup currently where the are over valued as an asset. Significant changes to tagging in battle and sail damage  will return chases to their more historical value.   We should be discouraging battles being fought as 'de masting battles'. How is a good question. Perhaps rework mast hitboxes and  allow hulks to drift from wind force and use rudder, or making boarding more dynamic based on the angle of boarding. I.E attempted boarding from a T shape restricts and slows combat.

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