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Short announcement on the 1.5x BR reinforcement limit


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Hi guys, hallo Leute,

 

looking for a (nearly) realistic game, I found "Naval Action". This is a war game. War is never fair. This should all know that use this game. The only fair way here are the special fights - called "Battles". I cant remember for one honorable admiral who has offered the opposing Admiral, his superior fleet decimate so that a fair fight arises. War is exploiting advantage - of superiority or sometimes daring.
 
Now I see only rules, rules, rules ... this will destroy this game. This BR-rule is also counterproductive to a game that mainly aimed at groups "Clans".
 
I wish:
 
- Away with the BR-rules
- Away with the time limit for "join battle"!
 
Jacob Kettler
 

 

 

auf der Suche nach einem (fast) realistischen Spiel, fand ich "Naval Action". Das ist ein Kriegsspiel. Krieg ist niemals fair. Das sollten alle wissen, die dieses Spiel nutzen. Die einzig faire Möglichkeit hier sind die speziellen Kämpfe - genannt "Battles". Ich kann mich jedenfall keines ehrenhaften Admirals entsinnen, der dem gegnerischen Admiral angeboten hat, seine überlegene Flotte so zu dezimieren, dass ein fairer Kampf entsteht. Krieg ist Ausnutzung von Vorteil - von Überlegenheit oder auch manchmal Wagemut.
 
Jetzt sehe ich nur noch Regeln, Regeln, Regeln... und diese zerstören das Spiel. Die BR-Regel ist zudem Kontraproduktiv zu einem Spiel, dass hauptsächlich auf Gruppen "Clans" abzielt. 
 
Ich wünsche mir:
 
- weg mit den BR-Regeln
- weg mit der zeitlichen Begrenzung zum "joinen"!
 
Jakob Kettler
Edited by Jakob.Kettler
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Sure, but how to solve the "oh no ! I was jumped by gankers hiding on the result screen" situations ?

 

That is the main thing and despite myself not resorting to less gentlemanly mechanics I know for a fact it is the norm, or it was, until changed.

That is kind of simple. Just change the battle and port exit invulnerability timers to 2.5 min and no hidden players will ever reinforce a battle. Yet, 20 British ships already in view outside Port Royal would still be able to protect it by getting into any of the battles in <2min.

The 1.5BR rule fails at stopping hidden ganks. It does not appear that stopping hidden ganks was even the intent. It does however, shrink the size or number of players involved in the average battle. It affords a huge amount of protection to the lone pirate or small pirate group hunting a nations capital.

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As far as ganking goes, 3rds and higher are relatively rare. Sure you'll "win" most engagements you come across, but that doesn't mean squat if you can't catch anything except for maybe a questionable captain sailing a 1st Rate alone.

 

-- EDIT --

 

If anything, I'd say a ship like the Trincomalee is almost too good and too numerous as it is in relative terms to the 3rd Rate, but that's for a different thread.

What we saw when POTBS tried this same Open Sea strength balance idea is that it drove the player base into lighter faster ships that could control the open sea tags and therefore by the BR rule control who gets into the battles. So for NA that would mean Snow, Niagara and the like will become the predominant gank boats. Shortly there after, everyone else has to select the same style of boat in order to even get into the battles. Once all the players were primarily all in the same style smaller lighter boats the battles themselves then shrunk to the 1.0-1.5 goal which then made pvp itself much less available to the player base. In fact, in the end, duo teams of pirates used to hunt in plain view right off port Royal because the entire British fleet couldn't do a thing about it as the server protected the gankers from fighting a fleet of Brits off the home port.

This whole concept of balanced battles based on a ship strength assignment value enforced by the computer was thoroughly tested already in POTBS. NA has better graphic, battle mechanics and more potential than POTBS. But when it comes down to player base, human nature and the constraints of somewhat realistic ships the are the same. The 1.5 BR rule, in the end, is nothing more than an attempt to have the server moderate player behavior. However, experience has shown players don't like being told what to do and some will figure out how to game the new rules. The tested and truest method for moderating player behavior is in giving the tools to the rest of the player community to get the job done. Scrap the computer forced 1.5BR system and put in some system that helps the players team up, get too and stop the gankers themselves and everyone wins.

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Open world / sandbox PvP is really a game about making sure you catch the enemy in unfair fights and making sure they don't catch you in unfair fights. There's a fair amount of strategy (and gear) that goes into this, but "fair fights" are the exception.

 

I find that to be fun.

 

If you want fair fights, stick with arena style setups.

 

If you want overarching strategy, stick with open world / sandbox, and don't try to turn sandbox gaming into arena gaming.

 

 

I do think that timers are sensible, lest bigger teams always come out on top, but other attempts to turn sandbox gaming into arena gaming are just going to lead to abuses. Some people just need to accept that they don't really enjoy open world games (and the inherent "unfairness" this will and does always create, in every open world game ever made).

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So, great fun I had again with this awful mechanic today laid in the ring that spawns on initiated battles. After retreating from a previous 3v1 gank I repelled in my Pavel, I was beset upon again by the same hostile group as I had somewhere important to be rather than to camp in the combat results screen for thirty minutes hoping they'd go away. With only inches away from the closest friendly port I got tagged again, this time with a friendly Brit just in the harbor! Surely, I can fight these scoundrels off for good in a 3v2 situation with my superior firepower. I asked my comrade to come to my aid, he agreed, and yet he couldn't join my battle!

 

Why?

 

Well, the tag occurred just out of his reach, but the battle spawned a battle circle large enough to encircle his position at the port. Thus, my ally who responded within a minute of my plea for help to a battle literally outside of a friendly port, was unable to join as the battle closed before he could position his ship correctly outside of the circle due to poor wind conditions (and port position) as the wind was strongest going into the port. In the previous patch he would have been able to join my battle near instantaneously to assist, but of course this must have been a poor lack of strategical thinking on my part or a lack of reading the latest patch notes.

 

Pardon my sarcasm, but I have been ganked 9v1 before in Naval Action and haven't felt salty in the slightest when I lost. Lesson learned: don't travel alone.

 

Getting ganked 3v1 with allies in plain sight and they can't even get to me in time because of some arbitrary lines and limits? This is the type of garbage that genuinely makes me want to avoid PvP altogether. The reinforcement ring isn't completely a bad idea as it allows for dynamic entry to battles, but it's genuinely frustrating how much emphasis there is in this game to make sure allies can't help you unless they are literally right on top of you.

 

"Anti-Gank Mechanic." :rolleyes: 

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Not that I'm enforcing this rule, but why sail anywhere in a Pavel?! You are asking for trouble. Save 1st and 2nd rates for port battles. If it's a port battle at another port, sail very close together in a large group.

Edited by Anne Wildcat
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With only inches away from the closest friendly port I got tagged again, this time with a friendly Brit just in the harbor!

 

Well, the one thing I kind of agree with the devs on is that we should restrict people from joining a battle if they were in the port when the tag happened.

 

I believe tags should include everyone in range (regardless of BR difference), but they need to actually be in sight -- not in a port or in a battle.

 

 

This is why I lean towards the idea of making the battle join timer be something like 15 seconds but make the battle join distance something like 3x the radius of the tag circle. That should let everyone in who wants in, if they are already visible and reasonably close to the tag.

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Well, the one thing I kind of agree with the devs on is that we should restrict people from joining a battle if they were in the port when the tag happened.

 

I believe tags should include everyone in range (regardless of BR difference), but they need to actually be in sight -- not in a port or in a battle.

 

 

This is why I lean towards the idea of making the battle join timer be something like 15 seconds but make the battle join distance something like 3x the radius of the tag circle. That should let everyone in who wants in, if they are already visible and reasonably close to the tag.

Yep, and they start in battle at the distance they are at in OW.  Heck, 4-5x the circle would be ok if they join at the right distance.  Make the join timer the same as pre battle timer.  People then have what, 20 seconds to get into the circle and 20-30 seconds to get into the battle?

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So, great fun I had again with this awful mechanic today laid in the ring that spawns on initiated battles. After retreating from a previous 3v1 gank I repelled in my Pavel, I was beset upon again by the same hostile group as I had somewhere important to be rather than to camp in the combat results screen for thirty minutes hoping they'd go away. With only inches away from the closest friendly port I got tagged again, this time with a friendly Brit just in the harbor! Surely, I can fight these scoundrels off for good in a 3v2 situation with my superior firepower. I asked my comrade to come to my aid, he agreed, and yet he couldn't join my battle!

Why?

Well, the tag occurred just out of his reach, but the battle spawned a battle circle large enough to encircle his position at the port. Thus, my ally who responded within a minute of my plea for help to a battle literally outside of a friendly port, was unable to join as the battle closed before he could position his ship correctly outside of the circle due to poor wind conditions (and port position) as the wind was strongest going into the port. In the previous patch he would have been able to join my battle near instantaneously to assist, but of course this must have been a poor lack of strategical thinking on my part or a lack of reading the latest patch notes.

Pardon my sarcasm, but I have been ganked 9v1 before in Naval Action and haven't felt salty in the slightest when I lost. Lesson learned: don't travel alone.

Getting ganked 3v1 with allies in plain sight and they can't even get to me in time because of some arbitrary lines and limits? This is the type of garbage that genuinely makes me want to avoid PvP altogether. The reinforcement ring isn't completely a bad idea as it allows for dynamic entry to battles, but it's genuinely frustrating how much emphasis there is in this game to make sure allies can't help you unless they are literally right on top of you.

"Anti-Gank Mechanic." :rolleyes:

I confirmed yesterday that you have plenty of time to leave port, lose invulnerability and sail to the nearest wind-friendly edge of the circle for a battle that has just started right in front of a port before the battle closes. Probably your friend messed up or didn't understand how to join from the circle edge.

*there may be combinations of wind direction and port topography where this is not true, and yes it is a bit fake that you can't join directly from the port location in the instance, but then ships "hiding" in port or battles happening right in front of a port without interference from shore batteries is also very fake. This actually calls into question whether there should be a "no attack / cancel attack" radius around ports to prevent these oddities.

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I guess I'll trhow my two cents in to this debate being either active PvP or in active PvP waters all the time. So far it's a mixed bag, I've seen it limit gankers to smaller ships, and I've seen it deny myself and friends to help those in need. To clarify however, I'll state as follows, ganking is wholly legitimate, attacking the enemy at their weak points and damaging their economy are all vital parts of RvR, stick true to the age of sail and keep it for a better OW experience, punishing players who are strategic and tactical in nature will damage this great game. Now, the group I'll call "true gankers", the guys I assume the devs are after, these are the ******* that exploit game mechanics to grief other players. Patch 1.5 didn't solve one of the biggest problems which is the after battle timer/invisibility. In my opinion, invisibility shouldn't exist at all, and after battle should have a one minute timer If that. I'm glad to see smaller ships coming into the mix after the third rate spam, but I think more ships and time will help, also seeing the UI as it is, I'm hoping rations will come into play at some point helping prevent units from staying on station permanently. So, I hope 1.5 is a stop gap measure until more OW elements are added, and some of the other elements are hashed out, and if it works out, no anti-gank system will be needed

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This system freaking sucks, less ganks and sealclubbing. Who in the right mind would want that, right?  B)

Gameplay has really taken a hit, so much less fun. It's agonizing not being able to gank people 10v1 every battle, or spend hours running and chasing. I'm not sure why people want this BR system, why would you want  less running, chasing and ganking? Those are the 3 things that make this game great.  :ph34r:

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This system freaking sucks, less ganks and sealclubbing. Who in the right mind would want that, right?  B)

Gameplay has really taken a hit, so much less fun. It's agonizing not being able to gank people 10v1 every battle, or spend hours running and chasing. I'm not sure why people want this BR system, why would you want  less running, chasing and ganking? Those are the 3 things that make this game great.  :ph34r:

Reading what other people write and trying to understand their point of view - try it, it might grow on you and you might come to find yourself contributing to the discussion.

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Yep, and they start in battle at the distance they are at in OW.  Heck, 4-5x the circle would be ok if they join at the right distance.  Make the join timer the same as pre battle timer.  People then have what, 20 seconds to get into the circle and 20-30 seconds to get into the battle?

 

Just to be clear, your instance spawn location should be determined when the tag timer ends. You are then presented with a join/ignore dialog window for 20 seconds, but still spawn where you were when the tag timer ended, not where you got when clicking join (obvious exploit). Can't join if you're outside the big circle when the tag happens, but the outer circle could extend all the way to the horizon. That yes/no window should probably include things like tag initiator and tag target name to prevent abuse.

 

And about the battle results screen, you can both use it to hide inside and gank people outside or wait outside and gank them as they come out. A 2 minutes or more invulnerability would help but could still be worked around with a bit of coordination. Kicking people off the battle results screen after x minutes would mean you would pretty much always be ganked after a battle in enemy territory. This is why I think the only viable solution is to force you back to the nearest friendly/neutral port after a battle. Maybe it would still be abused but it wouldn't be nearly as harmful, especially if you can't defensive tag outside of guns range. If the average battle lasts 30 minutes or more, that should be more than enough compressed OW time to be back in dock. As a bonus, it explains how you got all your crew back!

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Well, the one thing I kind of agree with the devs on is that we should restrict people from joining a battle if they were in the port when the tag happened.

 

I believe tags should include everyone in range (regardless of BR difference), but they need to actually be in sight -- not in a port or in a battle.

 

 

This is why I lean towards the idea of making the battle join timer be something like 15 seconds but make the battle join distance something like 3x the radius of the tag circle. That should let everyone in who wants in, if they are already visible and reasonably close to the tag.

 

I was a little frustrated earlier when I posted that. The player was physically out of the port sitting on the jetty, but I didn't elaborate on that. I agree with your idea Slamz.

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In my experience these new changes don't do anything to stop ganking. In fact, so far I've only seen the gankers being helped by this.

 

A bunch of trincs and renos just gank people right outside Carlisle and KPR. They all form up, see an unfortunate target, attack him and with 20 seconds they're all in. So far, nothing new.

 

People close to the battle see this happening, they didn't get dragged in, so they make their way over. Maybe some can't get just close enough due to wind and whatever, and so they are locked out due to a 2 minute timer. Those that get close jump in. Those that are a bit later will notice the BR is at the limit, so they can't.

 

Those that managed to get in will soon realise it was all for nothing, because they spawn so far away from the action that the gankers are already well on their way to sinking their target! By the time they get close, the gankers will have escaped the battle. They will sit on the battle screen for 15 minutes, grab a cup of coffee, have a snack, wait for the defenders outside to get bored (or perhaps just wait for the wind to become more favourable to run away), they will flee with their invisibility devices and are already well on their way to the next unfortunate target by the time you even see them appear.

 

Combine that with the ability to build an outpost in a free town close to the enemy, and the ability to send ships across the universe by capping traders .. and you have a recipe for easy, accessible ganking.

 

These are my experiences. I personally don't think this is the direction that Naval Action should take.

 

Be careful out there, folks. Don't go off on your own. Always stick with friends.

Edited by IceShade
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Just getting my voice heard here. This new system with the ring and not being able to join and help your friend who is being attacked. Completely and utter shit. Same with the fact that you cant capture NPC ships anymore but can capture tradeships and playerships. Why is there even a boarding battle anymore? How the hell does that prevent ganking? Infact both of these new systems make ganking even easyer since no one can help you if you are being attacked. You should be safe on your own territory for gods sake.

We cant protect our own tradeships on our own territory anymore because of this new system. There is no logic in this whatsoever.

 

The ring in itself is a good idea. But there has to be more time to join the battle. I want the old timesystem back. That's when we could call friend to aid if someone attacked and if they where in somewhat near they could come and help. Infact I want more time to join the battle.

Also. If the NPC fleets are as big as they are. I dont think that capturing ships from them is an issue. Devs. you are now looking only at PVP one and making all the decisions based on that one server. These decisions however affect other servers two like pvp3 where I currently play and the these gankingwars do not fit there.

 

In anycase I dont even understand this whole ganking idea and why it is so bad?

 

1. If in foreign waters. You will get attacked. Take measures to be ready for that. Sail during rain, sail with a fleet...

2. If in own territory. You should get enough reinforcements to rebel the attack if needed. Period.

3. If your nation is under attack and under war. You should not sail alone. And even with reinforcements you might still loose.

 

The game should follow these simple realworld like rules and that's it.

The key for many of the games problems to be solved at the moment is not artificial timers and rules. It's the real diplomacy where attacking even a friendlynations NPC:s have consecuenses that are not desiarable for the attacker. Like forexample coming a pirate.

 

Wars should not be easy to start and they should be costly. So that nations would think before act. Also. Sailing still does not cost anything. Sailing a 12 victory group should be so expencive that no one bothered to do that just to attack one trader. That's when the gangking stops and also that is when the smaller ships become more important and everyone want's to have one. If one crew member get's 1 gredit per day the sailing with a Victory would cost you 800 per day. I think that it should cost even more. Maybe 3 gretits per day.

Balls should also cost and take room from the cargo. So that ammo would not be endles. Capturing ship should reguire half of your crew to sail it to the harbor and you would only get your crew back by sailing there yourself. Recruiting crew should be very very difficult.

So that the greatest recourse would infact be people.

If you lost 100-200 crew in battle you should start thinking of pulling back even if your ship would not be sinking. Not because you lost the crew but because getting 200 guys recruited would be a royal pain in the ass.

Perhaps you could even keep a reserve in town but you would have to pay them vages like for the crew on the sea or they would leave and go work for someone else.

Edited by Monsteri
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In anycase I dont even understand this whole ganking idea and why it is so bad?

 

1. If in foreign waters. You will get attacked. Take measures to be ready for that. Sail during rain, sail with a fleet...

2. If in own territory. You should get enough reinforcements to rebel the attack if needed. Period.

3. If your nation is under attack and under war. You should not sail alone. And even with reinforcements you might still loose.

 

The game should follow these simple realworld like rules and that's it.

 

 

 

 

100% Agree

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In my experience these new changes don't do anything to stop ganking. In fact, so far I've only seen the gankers being helped by this.

 

 

 

Mind you the system was not devised to stop ganking. Please read the notes again. The system was devised to STOP the invisible flotillas ambushes. That is the start and end of it.

 

I agree with an open system as we had before, but to protect the Devs from all the reports the invulnerability timer must be increased to 120 seconds so to prevent Result screen camping, which apparently was the biggest motif behind the changes.

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I agree with an open system as we had before, but to protect the Devs from all the reports the invulnerability timer must be increased to 120 seconds so to prevent Result screen camping, which apparently was the biggest motif behind the changes.

 

Absolutely correct!

The invulnerability timer should prevent this kind of ganking when it is same or longer than reinforcement timer at battles.

The same after leaving town, and this two things are history.

Nevertheless we also need to have a timer for the Result screen. Nobody should use Menu Screens to hide from enemy, never!

 

But please remove this 1,5x bulls***

Edited by Sven Silberbart
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Mind you the system was not devised to stop ganking. Please read the notes again.

--

 

 

Hello all. 

We see a lot of commenters who oppose this change (implemented for testing).

 

We would like to issue a statement regarding it.

 

Goals of the 1.5x change

Reason 1. Reduce ganking

 

???

 

Unless you really want to go into semantics and argue that "stop" isn't the same as "reduce". I'm trying to argue the point here that the current system does not stop, battle or reduce ganking. It has in fact made it easier and as such has become more prevalent.

Edited by IceShade
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Just getting my voice heard here. This new system with the ring and not being able to join and help your friend who is being attacked. Completely and utter shit. Same with the fact that you cant capture NPC ships anymore but can capture tradeships and playerships. Why is there even a boarding battle anymore? How the hell does that prevent ganking? Infact both of these new systems make ganking even easyer since no one can help you if you are being attacked. You should be safe on your own territory for gods sake.

We cant protect our own tradeships on our own territory anymore because of this new system. There is no logic in this whatsoever.

The ring in itself is a good idea. But there has to be more time to join the battle. I want the old timesystem back. That's when we could call friend to aid if someone attacked and if they where in somewhat near they could come and help. Infact I want more time to join the battle.

Also. If the NPC fleets are as big as they are. I dont think that capturing ships from them is an issue. Devs. you are now looking only at PVP one and making all the decisions based on that one server. These decisions however affect other servers two like pvp3 where I currently play and the these gankingwars do not fit there.

In anycase I dont even understand this whole ganking idea and why it is so bad?

1. If in foreign waters. You will get attacked. Take measures to be ready for that. Sail during rain, sail with a fleet...

2. If in own territory. You should get enough reinforcements to rebel the attack if needed. Period.

3. If your nation is under attack and under war. You should not sail alone. And even with reinforcements you might still loose.

The game should follow these simple realworld like rules and that's it.

The key for many of the games problems to be solved at the moment is not artificial timers and rules. It's the real diplomacy where attacking even a friendlynations NPC:s have consecuenses that are not desiarable for the attacker. Like forexample coming a pirate.

Wars should not be easy to start and they should be costly. So that nations would think before act. Also. Sailing still does not cost anything. Sailing a 12 victory group should be so expencive that no one bothered to do that just to attack one trader. That's when the gangking stops and also that is when the smaller ships become more important and everyone want's to have one. If one crew member get's 1 gredit per day the sailing with a Victory would cost you 800 per day. I think that it should cost even more. Maybe 3 gretits per day.

Balls should also cost and take room from the cargo. So that ammo would not be endles. Capturing ship should reguire half of your crew to sail it to the harbor and you would only get your crew back by sailing there yourself. Recruiting crew should be very very difficult.

So that the greatest recourse would infact be people.

If you lost 100-200 crew in battle you should start thinking of pulling back even if your ship would not be sinking. Not because you lost the crew but because getting 200 guys recruited would be a royal pain in the ass.

Perhaps you could even keep a reserve in town but you would have to pay them vages like for the crew on the sea or they would leave and go work for someone else.

I don't understand what you are asking for... You say you cannot protect traders in "your own waters". If this is such a problem, should they be considered "home waters" and "safe"? Do you need to change tactics to use smaller, faster ships to catch these "Gankers"? Yes, the mechanics have changed. You can no longer have one super-fast "tackler" and magically all of your 3rd rates are spawning just as close as the tackler. Most of the people I see posting are upset because they haven't yet figured out the speed, not overwhelming firepower, is now the conventional wisdom. I'm still forming my opinion on how I feel about it, but instead of complaining, we're adapting and seeing how it goes before making knee-jerk pleas for immediate change. Want to be able to protect your pals? Use the ships they use, stay in as tight a formation as they do and get a good tag.

Edit: I don't consider hunting in small task forces of 4-6 ganking. I consider that about the right size for mutual protection. I consider mechanics like jumping out of port and battle screens unseen en masse "ganking". To me the difference is whether or not you can see the threat in normal draw distance time.

Edited by Vernon Merrill
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--

 

 

 

???

 

Unless you really want to go into semantics and argue that "stop" isn't the same as "reduce". I'm trying to argue the point here that the current system does not stop, battle or reduce ganking. It has in fact made it easier and as such has become more prevalent.

 

You can't be ambushed by invisible enemies hiding on battle screen.

It reduces the ganking possibilities using mechanics other than sailing out and pursuing prey.

 

You will always be jumped by enemies in a group, there's no way around it. Now if you see them you can counter them and that is a good thing.

 

What does that has to do with semantics ? Ganking is not stopped. Odd mechanics abuse for ganking was.

 

Now you and your buddies will always see the enemy before they attack.

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Mind you the system was not devised to stop ganking. Please read the notes again. The system was devised to STOP the invisible flotillas ambushes. That is the start and end of it.

I agree with an open system as we had before, but to protect the Devs from all the reports the invulnerability timer must be increased to 120 seconds so to prevent Result screen camping, which apparently was the biggest motif behind the changes.

+1 Edited by Bach
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You can't be ambushed by invisible enemies hiding on battle screen.

It reduces the ganking possibilities using mechanics other than sailing out and pursuing prey.

You will always be jumped by enemies in a group, there's no way around it. Now if you see them you can counter them and that is a good thing.

What does that has to do with semantics ? Ganking is not stopped. Odd mechanics abuse for ganking was.

Now you and your buddies will always see the enemy before they attack.

Invisible ambushes didn't go away. As long as the battle join timer is 30sec shorter than battle or port exit timer invisible ganks are still possible. I think you might be making the assumption that the new 1.5 BR rule is forcing the invisible ships to be held to that BR limit? If so, that isn't the case. It merely enforces a 1.5BR entry click check. There is no 1.5 BR limit on the battle. Gankers can safely hide a Victory inside a battle instance and use it to generate gank offsets from invisibility. Only change as that the Victory is now safe and out of danger as no unforeseen reinforcements can ever get into a battle with it. In short, pirates could put together a gank team right off Port Royal that included a victory constantly hidden in battle instances and there isn't anything the British player fleet in Port Royal would ever be able to do about it. It just requires a spotter on the OS and real gankers aren't shy about using British Alts as spotters.

Invisible ganks have definitely not gone away.

Edited by Bach
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