Short announcement on the 1.5x BR reinforcement limit

[alexlaza]

Can we at least allow to enter the battle to spectating? It would be annoying that when playing with a group of friends, and they joined battle, but I only got to watch their combat tab for a long time.

[Long Beard]

I was giving this more thought and pondering over the ideas suggested here about the positional reinforcements.  The main bone of contention as I see it is that joining players can position themselves anywhere they like after the battle has started, even if its in front of you, rendering your initial positioning as the attacker completely pointless. Ships that were behind you in OW can timewarp past you and enter the battle in a more favorable position, or worse, two or more could position themselves at different positions to make escape impossible.

 

I came to the conclusion whilst dreaming up new ways for this to work, that really there was nothing wrong with the old system. Positioning during the initial tagging was essential and a key tactic in how the battle would play out.  Ships that subsequently joined spawned at an acceptable location as not to impact the original attack position.  Going back to the old spawning system whilst keeping the new BR system seems like a much better solution.

 

Ok, I understand that the old system cannot work exactly as it was due to land now being incorporated into the battle, but surely we can have the old system when no land is present, and a some work around when land is present.  A work around that doesn't scupper your original attack position, or at least not scupper it too much.  Yeah in an ideal situation, if a player is north of you when you enter a battle he would join north of you, but I suspect this might be too hard to code in.  So happy medium would be to spawn behind so far as land position permits.

 

Overall, I'm happy with the new BR mechanics, but this 'pick your spot' thing makes sailing solo in enemy waters too unbalanced.  If I attack a single player target, I have no problems that other players of his nation can help, but the fact they can pick their spot sways too much in their favor.  

 

[Capt Jubal Early]

Anti Gank mechanic is fine in theory. What about the weird issue caused during Port battle maneuvers yesterday? Is this an acceptable downside to the Ganking mechanic?
Question intended for Devs reponse

Quote from my post

"To reiterate the  BR issue: We got pulled into a suicide squad fight. when we left the battle it wasn't at the same time as each other like 5-10 second differences so our invulnerability's timed out at different times allowing for half our fleet to get pulled into another fight. As the Brits pulled that half of the fleet with suicide frigates we couldn't join due to 1.5x battler rating advantage on our side therefore leading to lots of time wasted fighting a second ram fleet while half our fleet were sat outside. Obviously the half fleet outside the battle got pulled by another fleet of rated ships and subsequently got destroyed. "

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/13144-leak-sunk-issue/page-7 

Edited April 14, 2016 by Capt Jubal Early

[Babble]

I still dont see any reason for the BR limit.   

 

It doesnt stop ganking.  It doesnt give more even fights. 

 

If we are trying to stop people form hiding in port and jumping out on people there are better ways to do it such as what neils has proposed earlier in this thread or a list of captains stationed in a port suggested elsewhere.

 

The list puts the owness on the captain to pay attention to whos in the port and how close they are to port when they attack someone.  Really not complicated.

 

 

 

 

Long beard is right though the biggest issue is the reinforce where ever the hell you choose problem.   You can no longer sail solo in enemy waters confidently.  It makes defensive tagging obsolete and initial wind pointless.

[Vernon Merrill]

Should you really be able to ever sail confidently in enemy waters?

[William Livingston Alden]

the BR limit is nonsens like other things in that patch (leaks,raming), when for example 50 ships want attack a single ship then it should be so. happend to me often enough that 4 or 5 ships tried to capture me and did I complain about that in the forum?

as i wrote in another threads, I'm out for a while because that is not playable in any way, because the current patch is a shame and needs correction asap.

 

And Forum Admin - yes I'm one of this silent readers not much posting only when necessary - and I didnt ask for that kind of support like the BR 1.5 and other stuff. I was happy with the system even when it ended bad for me.

[Hethwill]

Should you really be able to ever sail confidently in enemy waters?

 

Depends on how much rum rations the crew downed before setting sail.

[Ratline]

The idea being proposed by Niels and others is really good, at least on paper. Perhaps dev time would be better spent trying a new system rather than repeated tinkering to fix something which is flawed in principal and will always lead to undesirable, gamey situations. The discrepancy between real time and accelerated OW time will never go away with battle entry timers.

[Sharden]

Do not take offense please , but it seems simply as you and your companion were doing things wrong (bad at keeping formation) and the consti player was very clever in gaining advantage from that.    

 

that wasnt my point at all.

I said myself we derped at the formation and i won the 1v1 fight that ensued. I merely wanted to point at the fact that i think the 1.5br limit is a bit too limiting,especially on the defender side. That we did make mistakes before the fight started i didnt deny.

 

Just wanted to state my opinion that the system is a good idea but does need some tweaking in my eyes

[Fletch]

"Captain's Log, Day 5. Sighted friendly Victory under attack by 3 Trincomalees and a Cerberus. A quick check of my math suggests that if I were to join the battle in my own Trincomalee, it would create a battle ratio of 1.57 to 1 in our favor. Decided to leave the Victory to his fate, as I would not wish to join him and be thought of as a ganker." -- Horatio Hornblower, Naval Action Edition, Continued Tales.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head with the 30 seconds. If your going to limit an open world battle in BR make it at least after 30 seconds so ships of the same fleet don't get split up simply because one was a bit slower.

You cant make the initial tag circle bigger because ships already start far enough apart and would make defensive tagging so much easier.

I am still in favour of the 2 min battle timer over all but the first 30 seconds should be un limited BR.

[thp]

I think we should allow no limite BR from Reinforcement ships in defender side but keep the BR 1.5 in attacker side, that will allow people to help their friends if they ve been attacked. Gankers usually attack in outnumber , not defending.

[Babble]

Copy pasta

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It doesnt.

 

Limiting reinforcements to any side dosent make much sense if it could be done positional and distance objective.

 

Since the OS is a compressed battle reinforcements should join in a distance relative to the elapsed time from battle initialization.

 

Once a battle starts a battle circle should be placed on the OS. As the time from battle start elapses the size of the circle increases to indicate the relative elapsed time. When a ship enters the circle they are asked if they wish to join the battle.  If they join they are placed in the battle in a position relative to their position on the OS to the battle and a distance relative to the start time of the battle. If at any point a player refuses to join a battle when given the option they are locked from that battle.  This is to prevent re-positioning and then joining.

 

Follow with me if you will: (Visual aid linked)   https://drive.google...QlJaNl9ucTlUcTA

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Battle start:

• This functions exactly as it did pre 9.7 patch.  Distance and wind direction of the initial tag are what matters. Everyone in the Red attack radius are pulled into battle relative to the the ship that tagged and the ship who was tagged.
• Ships in the light red circle get the option to join the battle as reinforcement (starting a 3 minute sail at 10 knots from long range cannons at their relative positions to the battle). See Niels Terkildsen suggest here for further details (http://forum.game-la...nt-limit/page-3)

From battle start to 1 minute after:

• Anyone sailing into the yellow circle will be given the option to join the battle
• If they chose to join the will join at a 5 minute sail at 10 knots from long cannon range in their relative position to the battle on the OS.

1-2 mins after battle start:

• After 1 minute the size and color of the circle on the OS increases to represent the elapsed time from battle initialization
• Anyone sailing into the peach circle will be given the option to join the battle
• If they chose to join they will join a 7 minute sail at 10 knots from long cannon range in their relative position to the battle on the OS.

2-3 mins after battle start:

• After 2 minutes the size and color of the circle on the OS increases to represent the elapsed time from battle initialization
• Anyone sailing into the yellow-green circle will be given the option to join the battle
• If they chose to join they will join a 9 minute sail at 10 knots from long cannon range in their relative position to the battle on the OS.

3-4 mins after battle start

• After 3 minutes the size and color of the circle on the OS increases to represent the elapsed time from battle initialization
• Anyone sailing into the green circle will be given the option to join the battle
• If they chose to join they will join a 11 minute sail at 10 knots from long cannon range in their relative position to the battle on the OS.

4-5 mins after battle start:

• After 4 minutes the size and color of the circle OS increase to represent the elapsed time from battle initialization
• Anyone sailing into the Blue circle will be given the option to join the battle
• If they chose to join they will join a 13 minute sail at 10 knots from long cannon range in their relative position to the battle on the OS.

5 mins:

• The battle closes and the Circle and swords disappear from the OS.

 

 

https://drive.google...QlJaNl9ucTlUcTA

 

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This system would allow for much more interesting and engaging battles.  It would allow friendly players from your nation to reinforce and help someone attacked alone in friendly waters.   It would turn your nations region into a safe zone for players due to the nature of sheer number of people who would be able to join and save the attacked player.   It would be far more realistic to what we currently have in game with 2 min windows and splitting fleets.   I just think its an all around better system to make this game tons of fun.   Image the mayhem that would ensue.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

Cap enemy mission join to 2 mins so people can PvE in relative safety.

 

Cap enemy join for all other engagements to 5 mins with the new system.

 

 

Thoughts?

[Random]

Should you really be able to ever sail confidently in enemy waters?

Absolutely not. In the game that is heavily oriented towards socialization and teamwork, however, inability to help friends who are engaged by the enemy just doesn't fit the spirit of cooperation and camaraderie. Perhaps a good solution to "feeling safe" would be implementing previously suggested "circles" solution and implementing random attacks by large patrolling NPC fleets that would automatically be dispatched to target a group of a particular size (randomly, as in it is not guaranteed that such a fleet will be dispatched, but there is a chance). That way those who are looking for fights can find themselves in one, while those looking to gank will have to risk being chased off by large NPC fleet, and we will all be able to help out our friends when they are in need of our help.

 

Edit: this intercept mechanic will also help to distinguish pirates as a more difficult faction to play for as they will not enjoy such possible protection from invading forces.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Drunken Spelunking

[Cecil Selous]

@ Babble: This is actually a very interesting idea, which should be discussed. I like the thinking behind it, though I wouldn't increase the circle diameter as much as your picture shows it . The range is enormous and compared to non compressed time just to much and to far away from the battle start. Maybe don't increase the circle at all. Sailors who want to participate in the battle still need to sail to it.

 

Another question to the devs: Will the battle be closed If the BR limit is reached before the 2 minutes battle timer? Or ist it still possible for the lower BR side to reinforce and thus raising the BR limit in the process, which then would allow more attackers to join until the 2 minute battle timer is reached? This would still allow large 25vs25 OW battles where not everybody is inside the initial tag circle (and it also needs some kind of gentlemen's aggreement to not start many small battles  )

Edited April 14, 2016 by Cecil Selous

[Dharus]

Goals of the 1.5x change

Reason 1. Reduce ganking

This change affects only the following player

• He sails in a large ganking group looking for smaller groups to sink
• He can't keep station and sail as an organized group - spreading out to find more targets so they all could gang up on them
• He wants to join already unbalanced battles (for example he wants to join the 10v1 and make it 11v1)
• He wants to sit in battle and then jump out and join the instance after their tackler tagged someone on the OW

If a gank group is spread out, one can tag while the rest surround the circle. That poor 1 gankee cannot even defensive tag because now there is a ganker at every exit point in battle. Defensive tagging now is less effective so it favors the ganking group. Tagging someone hold them in place while the rest swarm to the location, can be also used to gank after the exit timer.

Does it really matter if it's a 10v1 vs 11v1? It's still a gank. Only thing it does is bore the 11th player or allow him to get ganked by someone else.

The battle popping is a problem but solvable by timers or autopopping people out while they have timers.

Personally this change isn't effective to its goals. It limits the sandbox, makes OW a calculator game, and maybe addresses 1% of the encounters on the OW. It also gives more tools to people to surround and kill, limits defensive tagging to a degree, and now allows splitting because BR limitations. Seems a more problematic change than beneficial.

[Babble]

@ Babble: This is actually a very interesting idea, which should be discussed. I like the thinking behind it, though I wouldn't increase the circle diameter as much as your picture shows it . The range is enormous and compared to non compressed time just to much and to far away from the battle start.

 

 

its really not though.  

 

If i may.

 

This is the aproximatly the same circle zoomed out once:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B9mOinkVxfkQY3JIdFJkSkRSMGM

 

Twice:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B9mOinkVxfkQU0ppWVRnZDJLWXM

 

Three times if you can even see it:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B9mOinkVxfkQaWxCZzc4Y1RlSXc

 

 

According to the very accurate burningsails.com at 10 knots sail speed and 5 mins sail time until the battle closes the only people who would be able to join the battle would be within about this circle the line creates

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B9mOinkVxfkQSlFHNHBWa1JSNFU

 

20 knots and 5 mins would be about as far out as this line:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B9mOinkVxfkQSUxEaDRkYVhWc0U

[Long Beard]

 

This system would allow for much more interesting and engaging battles.  It would allow friendly players from your nation to reinforce and help someone attacked alone in friendly waters.   It would turn your nations region into a safe zone for players due to the nature of sheer number of people who would be able to join and save the attacked player.   It would be far more realistic to what we currently have in game with 2 min windows and splitting fleets.   I just think its an all around better system to make this game tons of fun.   Image the mayhem that would ensue.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

Cap enemy mission join to 2 mins so people can PvE in relative safety.

 

Cap enemy join for all other engagements to 5 mins with the new system.

 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Mhh, I don't see why we need game mechanics to make national waters safer.  That should really be up to the players of that nation.

 

From my own experiences sailing in enemy waters (which is all I really do), I get around 20 mins of hassle free plundering before people start coming out the woodwork to hunt me.  Then it's a game of cat and mouse.  Generally, the larger the fleet, the larger the response, but essentially if you've got bad guys in your waters, you already have instant local nation chat to start organising a defense. Ok you might not be able to save the first guy they/he attacked, but you sure as hell can put together a force and throw a spanner in their works or better, engage and sink them.

Visual range to me should be the focus here.  2 min battle timer is ideal. That gives anyone in visible range of the battle plenty time to get their and assist.  Anything beyond that is just, well, meh! Visual range is realistic, anything beyond that isn't. 

 

The 5 mins thing we had before was 'ok', but often we'd get a shout out in clan chat that someone was being chased or in a battle and we'd have time to stop what we were doing and go lend a hand.  We'd have had no idea about the battle had it not been for clan chat and we'd sail to the rough spot the clannie described and look for the cross swords.  More PVP yes, realistic, no.  

 

I honestly don't know what the problem was. Old system was fine and left to the players to sort out. Now nanny state is enforced

[maturin]

No one here has played the game with positional reinforcements and no BR restrictions.

 

Therefore you are all talking out of ignorance. If there are positional reinforcements with no BR restrictions, then running away from anything is utterly impossible. Santi and Brig can catch a Lynx.

[Babble]

No one here has played the game with positional reinforcements and no BR restrictions.

 

Therefore you are all talking out of ignorance. If there are positional reinforcements with no BR restrictions, then running away from anything is utterly impossible. Santi and Brig can catch a Lynx.

Not if you leave the escape requirements the same as they currently are.

 

A brig joining 3, 5, 7 ect mins away is not catching anything that knows how to sail regardless of the direction they enter.

[maturin]

Not if you leave the escape requirements the same as they currently are.

 

A brig joining 3, 5, 7 ect mins away is not catching anything that knows how to sail regardless of the direction they enter.

The brig can drop right on top of the fleeing vessel if they position themselves right. You can chase from leeward on the OW and attack from windward in the instance.

[Babble]

Mhh, I don't see why we need game mechanics to make national waters safer.  That should really be up to the players of that nation.

 

I agree completely but we are being saddled with mechanics to stop ganking that really are preventing pvp.  Suggesting a better alternative.

 

From my own experiences sailing in enemy waters (which is all I really do), I get around 20 mins of hassle free plundering before people start coming out the woodwork to hunt me.  Then it's a game of cat and mouse.  Generally, the larger the fleet, the larger the response, but essentially if you've got bad guys in your waters, you already have instant local nation chat to start organising a defense. Ok you might not be able to save the first guy they/he attacked, but you sure as hell can put together a force and throw a spanner in their works or better, engage and sink them.

 

Yeah same for me.  Basically all i do.  See my previous comment

Visual range to me should be the focus here.  2 min battle timer is ideal. That gives anyone in visible range of the battle plenty time to get their and assist.  Anything beyond that is just, well, meh! Visual range is realistic, anything beyond that isn't. 

 

The 5 mins thing we had before was 'ok', but often we'd get a shout out in clan chat that someone was being chased or in a battle and we'd have time to stop what we were doing and go lend a hand.  We'd have had no idea about the battle had it not been for clan chat and we'd sail to the rough spot the clannie described and look for the cross swords.  More PVP yes, realistic, no.  

 

Realism or fun?  Which is more important?  Relative realism and fun.  Thats what i choose.  Having added distance in direct correlation to elapsed battle start time it is plenty easy to escape before the joining forces can keep you in combat.  The proposed mechanic would make for a whole hell of a lot more interesting fights.  Right now a battle is basically small skirmishes or cat and mouse chase and catch.  Imagine the battles possible with the system i propose.   Reinforcements joining on either side of the battle could be having their own fights 9 mins away from the initial fight in a cove introduced in land in battle.   Having reinforcements join positionaly and distance relative adds a whole new layer of gameplay.  However players like our selves can still hit a solo player, sink it, and sail away before the reinforcements get in range.   It makes a much more rich game.  Gives the possibility of large open sea engagements where 25 v 25 fleets are fighting around islands.   But it doesnt eliminate the possibility of solo players from piracy.

 

I honestly don't know what the problem was. Old system was fine and left to the players to sort out. Now nanny state is enforced

 

I digress.

The brig can drop right on top of the fleeing vessel if they position themselves right. You can chase from leeward on the OW and attack from windward in the instance.

Did you read what i proposed?

 

This would not be possible in my proposed solution.

[Hugoka]

why should Pirates be expected to sail in station?? The whole thing about pirates was spreading out to find someone to attack and capture,,  I suppose we will see how this all plays out,, 

[maturin]

why should Pirates be expected to sail in station?? The whole thing about pirates was spreading out to find someone to attack and capture,,  I suppose we will see how this all plays out,, 

Why should pirates be expected to sail in company? You're supposed to be loaners anyways.

[Capt Nathan]

Since the patch has come out i have had nothing but the same people crying in the nation chat about how bad it is etc i think its funny they cry that this is the end and yet no one else seams to think so. i say good job devs iv had no issue with any content and we all need those player to cry keeps the sea salty.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Capt Nathan

[akd]

The brig can drop right on top of the fleeing vessel if they position themselves right. You can chase from leeward on the OW and attack from windward in the instance.

 

No they can't.  You have 2 min to join and must join at the edge of the circle, which translates into distance in the instance. System is different than old positional reinforcements.  The only problem seems to be that a person that joins 1 sec late gets the same "penalty" as someone that joins 119 sec late.