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Remove 1.5BR anti-gank programming


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I am not sure how people sitting outside of battles is going to accomplish that.

 

Go look for another fight, you don't need 10 ships to sink 1. Nobody said you have to sit outside and wait for the battle to end, lots of enemy on the OS. Im sure 3 players can take care of 1. Or be in the tag circle. Simple.

Edited by Acadian44
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I agree that too much is done about balancing.  Historically, no battle has ever been balanced.  The anti-ganking is causing more problems than not.  If we want to allow respite - then I would suggest having small contained safe zones with free ports.  If players want to be exempt from PvP and only be PvE, then that too should be made available at character generation - to include them in the OW, but exclude them from any PvP. 

 

Note that several players on this thread: including Slamz, Vllad and Bach were playing France on pvp2 when we were 20-30 active players in low 5th and 6th rated ships facing off a pirate zerg of 90+ active players a majority of whom were in Trincomalees or higher.  We were not pleading for a leveling balance then.  The challenge was reward in itself and even today do we reminisce fondly of these dark moments of two months ago.  We played out ranked, out crewed, out numbered - had to learn to run and regroup - and though we sank occasionally - we won more battles than lost.  Yes, PvP is best played as a team sport - this is an MMO after all.

 

All of us are attracted in pitting our skill, intelligence, and team dynamics against other players.  Team dynamics include imbalance.  If one is afraid of getting jumped - then perhaps one should avoid setting themselves up: venture in groups, use ships that can allow you to escape,... learn to adapt.

Edited by TaranisPrime
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We're concerned about the PvP skills of the gankers and want to make sure they learn how to fight.

 

 

You say we should stop ganking and learn to fight.

We say you should actually make some friends in this game, join the community and stop sailing around by yourself.

 

We're concerned about the community relationship of the victims and want to make sure they join groups, make friends and stop being basement dwellers.

 

 

What's more important in the long run? Serious question here, because this is what I see it boiling down to:

 

* Strong community, encouraged and enabled to play the game together even if it means fights can be unfair.

* Fair fights, artificially enforced at the expense of community bonds when necessary.

 

Pick one.

 

POTBS picked the second route, so choose wisely.

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POTBS picked the second route, so choose wisely.

 

POTBS died because of pay to win, not the BR limiter. The BR limiter was x2, it was impossible to win anyway.

 

And not every wants to sail in a zerg like some do. :)

Edited by Acadian44
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Oh no don't take away my ganks! How will we PvP? If I get into a battle that is 1.5x BR capped we are sure to get crushed! We have never done any PvP that wasn't 5x enemy BR, please take out this system devs or we will have to go to the PVE server! 

 

*sarcasm* yawn. moving on.

 

 

Yes, because no one could possibly ever support free style PVP that goes around solo most of the time. Your assumption that I only support ganking because I am someone who runs around in 25 manned groups is not even close to reality. The group size that I typically pvp in is around 4 and half of my fights are all solo.

 

I know based on our previous conversations you have a hard time grasping that solo players really want free form PVP but anyone who is an RvR fan understands why open pvp is critical to the success of RvR components. Restricted PVP has no place in a game that is attempting to do RvR.

 

People like yourself will not be any more satisfied with this rule just like other players in games who have used such mechanics in the past. It simply does not work. Ganking will still happen with the only difference being their will be less people able to participate in pvp.

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POTBS died because of pay to win, not the BR limiter. The BR limiter was x2, it was impossible to win anyway. 

 

 

POTBS died because it kept trying to restrict open PVP in an RvR environment. It started with only allowing multiples of 6 to participate and only allowing PVP in red zoned area's and continued to go down hill from there.

 

It didn't survive from its original release numbers long before pay to win because it wouldn't jump off the fence. Either be an RvR game or don't.

 

The minute developers start restricting pvp for an RvR game, it is over. You can't have it both ways. Leave the RvR alone and give people arena instances to experience fair pvp OR stop trying to make an RvR game.

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Don't you get it? You can still gank people 25v1.

 

Which brings us back around to wondering who is made happy by this change.

 

Certainly not you. You can still be ganked.

 

And not us, either. We had 4 people in the circle so now you're 4v1 and going to die in a gank you have no hope against but our group has been needlessly split. We would have rather brought in the other 3 people for sake of staying together (and hoping you come back later with 7 friends) but now we're split.

 

And if the people on the outside start another fight, that just deepens the rift. Now we have to wait on them when your fight is over.

 

 

You haven't improved your situation and you made our situation worse.

 

So who's the winner here?

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Which brings us back around to wondering who is made happy by this change.

 

Certainly not you. You can still be ganked.

 

And not us, either. We had 4 people in the circle so now you're 4v1 and going to die in a gank you have no hope against but our group has been needlessly split. We would have rather brought in the other 3 people for sake of staying together (and hoping you come back later with 7 friends) but now we're split.

 

And if the people on the outside start another fight, that just deepens the rift. Now we have to wait on them when your fight is over.

 

 

You haven't improved your situation and you made our situation worse.

 

So who's the winner here?

Yes, 'his' situation is improved. It prevents you from exploiting the OW mechanics to tackle him using fantastical formations and then teleporting into the instance. Instead you must attack as a formation or risk *gasp* giving the enemy a winnable fight.

 

 

That's the whole crux of the matter. Not that ganking becomes impossible or even much harder for those that are good at it. It just means that a sloppy gank might result in some halfway-decent gameplay.

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Just think of it this way...

 

We're concerned about the PvP skills of the gankers and want to make sure they learn how to fight.

Don't be silly. There are no gankers. It's not like 6 guys get together and say "hey lets go sail around till we can find some lone guy to best up on and we'll just run away from everyone else". That's not happening.

Players group up, pick there ships and then go sail for an hour to enemy shores. It's not like they can control if it's one enemy player that comes along or twenty. It's just random chance for the most part. You can expect these guys that sailed for an hour, only to cone across a lone frigate, to sit there and draw straws for who finally gets to pvp. It's just silly. So they all jump in and if they catch the frigate they all get xp and gold. If 5 of them sit outside waiting for a battle then they get no pvp and no gold for two hours effort in game. Thats just silly.

There are no cowardly gankers. It's generally just layers that happen across one guy traveling solo. It's not their fault or even under their control. It also cheapens the game. It's not like a British squadron of frigates, in real life, would have let a Spanish galleon go or draw straws for who gets to fight it. It's supposed to be a war and a lone unescorted cargo ship or patrol vessel is supposed to be taking a risk.

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Don't be silly. There are no gankers. It's not like 6 guys get together and say "hey lets go sail around till we can find some lone guy to best up on and we'll just run away from everyone else". That's not happening.

 

 

That explains the squads of 15 trincs and renos that gank anything that they outnumber by 10 and then when enemy shows up with a force that could give them a somewhat even fight they peel off back home. :P

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Go look for another fight, you don't need 10 ships to sink 1. Nobody said you have to sit outside and wait for the battle to end, lots of enemy on the OS. Im sure 3 players can take care of 1. Or be in the tag circle. Simple.

I'm not sure if we're playing on the same serve but it's not that crowded out there. I sailed for 45min yesterday and only saw two players and one of them was on my team. Missing one battle when you only get one opportunity every hour is a big deal.

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...and if you aren't incompetent at it, all 6 guys can jump into the fight.

 

You're only going to run into 1.5 BR limitation if you are relying on one ship to be a tackler, and the rest are incapable of catching anything. 

 

So your choice is either split up the group or let some of the quicker prey escape.

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That's the whole crux of the matter. Not that ganking becomes impossible or even much harder for those that are good at it. It just means that a sloppy gank might result in some halfway-decent gameplay.

That's not what happened in POTBS it's not what will happen here. 2v1 is just as much of a gank as 6v1s. In POTBS the OS Str rules just replacesd 6v1 ganks with 2v1s. Ganks didn't go away. Fights didn't become half way decent or any better. People just got bored and slowly quit playing. The one that got ganked and left parted with strongly worded nasty grams to the devs. The ones that got bored just faded off. I still maintain, one pissed off player is better than three bored ones.

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...and if you aren't incompetent at it, all 6 guys can jump into the fight.

 

Let's think about that.

 

In order to get 6 people into the fight, they need to stick close. That means no spreading out to get tags, no faster ships running ahead. It means you sail as a clump and if people run away there is nobody to cut them off.

 

It also means you need to all run the same ship, or else all tags will have to be done at the speed of the slowest ship.

 

* Fewer tags.

* Less ship diversity.

 

 

*Removed PotBS payment model discussion*

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If every fight I did was 6v1 for my side I would get bored a lot faster than the person getting ganked. Just sayin' :ph34r:

 

 

All Bach is saying is now it will be 2 v 1 with 4 people sitting outside. For 4 people that is worse then ganking or being ganked.

 

The alternative to prevent the boredom is everyone will just be in the fastest ship possible. Fir speed rigged Trincs is the only thing you will see at sea otherwise you will not see any pvp action. The Ganking will still go on and the complaints will start all over again.   

 

All the work done to create a variety of ships and hull types goes down the drain in a single instance.

 

Live Oak ships are about to see the last of their open sea's PVP duty.

 

 

 

60 days later in some clan chat:

 

Bob. "why don't we just take our 3rd rates out to PVP?"

Charley, "because you can't tackle anyone, all the Trinc's do is run"

Jack. "Newb, if you aren't in a Fir Trinc you won't ever get into a fight, you will just get left behind"

Bob. "I am new and don't have a Fir Trinc yet"

Jack. "dude, sorry you can't go with us but until you can afford/high enough level to get that Fir, Speed Rigged ship we just can't take you with us."  

Bob. "What is the point of all these others ships if we can't use them?"

Charley. "/Shrug"

Bob. "Has anyone checked that new MMO that allows 200 v 200 PVP combat? You log in in the first minute and start pvping! I think I will check that out"

Edited by Vllad
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...and if you aren't incompetent at it, all 6 guys can jump into the fight.

 

You're only going to run into 1.5 BR limitation if you are relying on one ship to be a tackler, and the rest are incapable of catching anything. 

 

So your choice is either split up the group or let some of the quicker prey escape.

Again, we saw this in POTBS. What happened is players learned that fast OS ship that could fight 1v1 could control most all the fights since there was no longer gross offsets. So everyone started sailing the Vengy. It was fast enough on the OS to control tags, it could 1v1 almost anything and run from any 2v1 fight it didn't want to. The same will probably happen here. Players will learn to gravitate to ships that are fast on the OS to out run anything that can out gun them and outgun anything that might catch them. Once the community figures out what that ship is it will be all we start seeing patrolling the OS.

The thing with gank odds is that the Vengy doesn't always get away when x6 HMCs start out shooting at its sails. But it almost always controls the fight when it was only x1 HMC. So the rule doesn't create better fights so much as it starts to restrict and program how that are always fought.

If every fight I did was 6v1 for my side I would get bored a lot faster than the person getting ganked. Just sayin' :ph34r:

And if every fight you get into is a 6v1 its time to start thinking the problem might be in the mirror. Seriously though, if that's happening to you and you want some help or advice on how to avoid it contact me in game. I'll always help you.

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And if every fight you get into is a 6v1 its time to start thinking the problem might be in the mirror. Seriously though, if that's happening to you and you want some help or advice on how to avoid it contact me in game. I'll always help you.

   

I think if it that was happening he would have quit long ago. 

But some players live for this kind of PvP, it's the only kind they like. That's why this thread exists.

Edited by Acadian44
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All Bach is saying is now it will be 2 v 1 with 4 people sitting outside. For 4 people that is worse then ganking or being ganked.

 

The alternative to prevent the boredom is everyone will just be in the fastest ship possible. Fir speed rigged Trincs is the only thing you will see at sea otherwise you will not see any pvp action. The Ganking will still go on and the complaints will start all over again.   

 

All the work done to create a variety of ships and hull types goes down the drain in a single instance.

 

Live Oak ships are about to see the last of their open sea's PVP duty.

 

Everyone loses here.

 

Everyone going fir?  Please do.  If I do force a fight (say, catching them against the coast), they are easily dead.

 

I for one am not changing to fir.

 

Anyway, we don't know how this is going to work.  Let's try it for a few weeks and see.

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Actually it will dumb down PVP not increase the skill of players.

 

Players learn to fight better when they are forced to not when you spoon feed them. Having to learn how to take on a beat 6 players when you only have 3 when out gunned or learn how to survive a 12 on 1 duel makes players better.

 

1v1/3v3 creates PVP for dummies.

 

Players never improve their skills unless faced with extreme threat. They always take the path of least resistance and it makes players lazy.

?

Are you saying that having to rely on yourself and not on the countless meatshields and dps slaves you can bring to the meatgrinder will somehow make you more lazy? I believe it's the opposite from experience, all those epic RvR guys who got caught outside their packs were as clueless as expected without their bodyguards lol

Also 9 times out of 10 when you gank someone, you are not being beacon of benevolence forcing them to get better, they just point at 135 and afk sail away to waste your time in spite. You can't force anyone to learn shit if they don't want to do it themselves and before you open fire, I am not supporting these restrictions since I believe they will not help anyone anyway.

 

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You can still gank, you just have to be disciplined about it. No more exploiting one tackler and then warping an entire fleet into one spot thirty seconds later. How historical is that?

it can be controlled by timers and the impossibility to join fight when gang undock or login.

 

 

 

Anyway, we don't know how this is going to work.  Let's try it for a few weeks and see.

We just lose people who generate PvP content ingame.

Edited by DekTo
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?

Are you saying that having to rely on yourself and not on the countless meatshields and dps slaves you can bring to the meatgrinder will somehow make you more lazy?

you are not being beacon of benevolence forcing them to get better, they just point at 135 and afk sail away to waste your time in spite. You can't force anyone to learn shit if they don't want to do it themselves and before you open fire, I am not supporting these restrictions since I believe they will not help anyone anyway.

 

 

I said the opposite of all of these things.

 

I have learned how to solo 4 players and sink 2 or 3 before getting away. I have learned how to sink two in a 1 vs. 6 or 7 fight before dying. I have learned how to fight retreating battles in a 6 vs 15 fight and get sinks. You only learn this by being forced into extreme pvp fights.

 

With great odds you need to hone your skills far more than fighting even battles. You can't make any mistakes when the odds are heavily against you otherwise you go down fast.

 

Even fights are dull and generally generate very little excitement. You can make numerous mistakes and still come out on top. In even fights unless you are really out classed those fights just aren't as epic. A fight with generally even odds unless it is massive (25 v 25) just doesn't hone skills like fights do when great odds are stacked against them.

 

My entire point is making fights more even doesn't make the players skill any higher, it just makes it easier for bad pvp players to win more fights. It makes players lazy since the challenge now goes out of it.

 

Making fights all equal and fair is like giving trophy's out for participation. That doesn't make anyone better. Competition in its most extreme makes people better.

Edited by Vllad
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