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Abuse of ALTs in Basic Cutters to start combat


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I guess that this was one of such doubtful incidents. I'm last person who would ban anyone but such incidents are a problem.

Doubtful is the key word. Who is to say britgamer didnt just want to legitimately try and engage the danish ship? The issue isnt the individual it is the patchy mechanics as is very often the case with these tribunal posts

Even an attempt to prove something does little other than confirm who tagged who there is no proof of intent

Edited by chappy
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I would be happy to do so, in a more appropriately placed topic. However since you insist I will provide my most obvious objection. With the proposed mechanics change you can only drag the single targeted player into combat. So in a PB fleet any interceptors would be defensively tagged before they got within range of the conquest flag. And even if they closed the range, the flagcarrier would just refuse to join combat and any interceptors could only conceivably intercept the number of ships they had the numbers to 1v1. In general people would also never allow themselves to be dragged into a fight, they would rather wait till the battle started to see if they wanted to reinforce. Nobody would ever have any idea how many ships would be joining on either side when the battle started, and teammates would often be left alone in unwinnable fights expecting reinforcements and getting none. There would be a lot less fleet battles on this server and only 1v1's.

Please create a topic in an appropriate forum to hear the rest of my objections.

Considering moderators have not removed my post or suggested posting in a different topic, I am content to respond here.  If you do make a topic and link it I would move to that thread.  

 

As to your assertion that defending players trying to intercept the flag would be tagged early, how is that any different from current mechanics?  If a nation creates an assault fleet to take a port, they can already employ screeners to pull defending 'interceptors' into battle regardless if it is one or two or even 3 players.  They only have to make sure that they are indeed far enough ahead of the main group so the attack circle does not pull them in as well.  So as to this, I don't see a benefit one way or another to smaller nations from the current system.  TBH, I think it would actually help smaller nations since the BR difference would no longer disallow pulling the flag carrier into a battle even if all of his allies are surrounding him.

 

For your second point, what's so bad about people wanting to 1v1?  AFAIK, this game isn't strictly a group or fleet pvp only game.  Maybe with more 1v1 going on people would actually learn how to do it better as opposed to being part of blob warfare and not really honing their skills.  However, that is taking what you said as a matter of fact rather than opinion.  People already rush to join their side in Open Water when they are not auto-pulled into a fight in many instances, especially when looking for group fun.  I don't agree at all that this would discourage people from group pvp, but that those who are already wary of it would still be wary and those who accept and look forward to group pvp would continue to join fights as is the current system.

 

So, from looking at your examples, my suggestion to change the current system of auto-reinforcement would in no way negatively change PB or open water pvp except to eliminate exploits.

Edited by F4ppinFr3nzy
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pic of the problem with british screening fleet - it does NOT prove the tagger is an alt etc (no accusation being made here) - the pic shows the flawed tagging mechanic

 

as suggested, devs please introduce a UI window that asks 'do you wish to join this battle? - yes/no'

 

1 midshipman in a cutter tying up numerous screening ships, be it intentional or not (nearly impossible to prove one way or the other) is bad tagging mechanics

 

 

 

To add on this from the viewpoint of a guy who was part of this group and sitting in front of this port with all others but not aspired into this battle : 

 

It's interesting to note that as soon as the basic cutter initiated the battle and aspired a good part of our ships the Danish third rates + a frigate started to pop out of the port we were blocking ... Simple error from a bored midshipman or perfectly timed inside job or just simple coincidence ... Hard to say, i guess only the basic cutter guy knows.

 

I perfectly understand those cases are hard to prove and will require a lot of time and investigations from the persons in charge but this happens regularly indeed and i don't know exactly what game mechanic could be put in game to prevent an unsporting abuse of such mechanic but this is a bit too easy to abuse on purpose in game right now and a bit frustrating.

Edited by Kanay
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It's interesting to note that as soon as the basic cutter initiated the battle and aspired a good part of our ships the Danish third rates + a frigate started to pop out of the port we were blocking ... Simple error from a bored midshipman or perfectly timed inside job or just simple coincidence ... Hard to say, i guess only the basic cutter guy knows.

 

Occam's razor told me they had  people pop out from the city to take a looksie.

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I have an identical screenshot to the one posted by Jim above -"britgamer" tagged the Danish cutter - clearly wasted our time and was just ridiculous - mechanic needs to change and devs need to be clear this practice is an exploit.

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and what I'm saying is

 

As the Omnipotent Admin its far easier for you to acquire evidence from the servers...

Not everyone can/or feels compelled to record their gaming expecting that people will straight up cheat and do other lame things against the spirit of the game but viable due to the present state of development/lack thereof..

 

 

 

Servers are unbiased. They show data, not intent. They won't be able to read people's minds for a while.

 

There were 2 tribunals over the last week for example

  • Case one: Player Khorne74 attacking a danish player pulling everyone into the battle (danes and brits)
  • Case two: Player Britgamer attacking a cutter pulling a large fleet into the battle.

Both players who attacked the enemy had their player set up at least a month before today. 

Both of them have never switched nations

Both of them have outposts and ships in the british ports (or formerly british ports) and did trading with brits only

If they deleted the accounts to create a brit specifically for the purpose of this one time attack they would not have any british assets. 

Of course maybe they are really smart spies and created a time bomb spy 2 months ago to make this one time hit and run but we doubt it.

 

So the question to all who want to lynch them

Are you sure they did not do it by mistake?

Who will risk their 1-2 months of playtime by collaborating with the enemy ONCE?

 

Thats why we ask for videos - because server logs show a valid attack on the enemy ship not showing that they did it to specifically bring SLNR into battle.

 

 

ps. using alts in a basic cutter issue is different and will be addressed by design (hopefully)

Captains who have ideas on the super awesome new ROE should post them in the suggestions or OW sections. Once the rules are clear its easy - for example We ban a lot of people from chat every week based on reports you send us.

The goal for tribunal is not also to punish but find the rules that will make gameplay better 

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It's really quite sad, with all the advantages the pirates have as a "nation" they still need to use tactics like this... 

 

It's going to be really hard finding any real evidence to show these are pirate/dutch spies as pictures don't look like good enough evidence. Sure these accounts may have outposts and created a while ago but maybe that's their purpose, to seem like a somewhat active account in case they are reported, and why would they still be midshipman if account created a month ago? It looks like the only evidence people care for is a direct confession to the crime, which we all know will never happen.

 

also them not switching nations makes sense, the report is about enemy nations having bought a second copy of the game to specifically do such things as this, that is the whole point most people buy a second account .

Edited by Lord Roberts
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It's really quite sad, with all the advantages the...

to seem like a somewhat active account in case they are reported, and why would they still be midshipman if account created a month ago?

 

Again will repeat. both tribunals (or complaints in PM) said that danes have used alts. 

Case one - player who attacked danes was a british master and commander

Case two - player who attacked danes was a british first lieutenant in a mercury

Both players accounts have no history of switching nations and played for at least a month, had assets and outposts in british ports and had a rank required time to achieve. 

 

You have not answered the question. Why would M&C risk his time in game and all assets and outposts for a one time attack?

And how people asking for lynching can guarantee it was not a genuine mistake caused by lack of knowledge of mechanics or other reasons. What if he seeing large fleet in the vicinity attacked to help his nation chasing an easy kill?

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Again will repeat. both tribunals (or complaints in PM) said that danes have used alts. 

Case one - player who attacked danes was a british master and commander

Case two - player who attacked danes was a british first lieutenant in a mercury

Both players accounts have no history of switching nations and played for at least a month, had assets and outposts in british ports and had a rank required time to achieve. 

 

You have not answered the question. Why would M&C risk his time in game and all assets and outposts for a one time attack?

And how people asking for lynching can guarantee it was not a genuine mistake caused by lack of knowledge of mechanics or other reasons. What if he seeing large fleet in the vicinity attacked to help his nation chasing an easy kill?

Why risk taking my Victory out if I have a chance of losing it?, I take it out cause I will gain something from it, enjoyment and an advantage, But either way there is only 2 ways to get evidence towards such a crime and that is

 

1. Video proof that the same ship is going around tagging people over and over again and being warned what he is doing is not allowed and is still doing it.

2. Confessing to the crime of alt tagging which we all know no one would confesses to such a thing. 

 

A lot of people risk a lot to gain an advantage over others, even if it means they lose everything, take most hackers and cheaters in games or even in real world, people will rob banks or rob a store, it's high risk but there is a reward for doing it, they can lose it all but they still do it.  Just because he is M&C does not automatically make him innocent.

Edited by Lord Roberts
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It's really quite sad, with all the advantages the pirates have as a "nation" they still need to use tactics like this...

It's going to be really hard finding any real evidence to show these are pirate/dutch spies as pictures don't look like good enough evidence. Sure these accounts may have outposts and created a while ago but maybe that's their purpose, to seem like a somewhat active account in case they are reported, and why would they still be midshipman if account created a month ago? It looks like the only evidence people care for is a direct confession to the crime, which we all know will never happen.

also them not switching nations makes sense, the report is about enemy nations having bought a second copy of the game to specifically do such things as this, that is the whole point most people buy a second account .

The fact thay even tho this has nothing to do with Pirates.. you still try to blame them, really says everything. You are so drastically biased against Pirates that you fail to even read what the Admin has written or the actual issue and just point a finger at us.

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Again will repeat. both tribunals (or complaints in PM) said that danes have used alts. 

Case one - player who attacked danes was a british master and commander

Case two - player who attacked danes was a british first lieutenant in a mercury

Both players accounts have no history of switching nations and played for at least a month, had assets and outposts in british ports and had a rank required time to achieve. 

 

You have not answered the question. Why would M&C risk his time in game and all assets and outposts for a one time attack?

And how people asking for lynching can guarantee it was not a genuine mistake caused by lack of knowledge of mechanics or other reasons. What if he seeing large fleet in the vicinity attacked to help his nation chasing an easy kill?

You don't understand how there arrogant British players think. Everything is Pirates or Russians fault ! and Pirates are all Russians anyway!!!

Well, maybe you do as you spend here...your face and your palm must be hurting by now...

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I'm not sure there's much point in me weighing in here. The admin pretty much concluded this in a satisfactory manner.

Of course, suspected alts should be F11-reported for moderators to investigate, but this blame-game and throwing about accusations that goes in in this tribunal serves no purpose other than to create unrest amd discord in the community. I would not be baffled if people using alts to do what this tribunal is about has occured once or twice. But I will say this, the british are not used to having their front line practically on top of their grinding area. This means that pve-players and players with little tactical knowledge, or simply noobs, will be at the front line making calls that affect other players.

Playing for the danes I have had this exact thing happen to me many times. I have been dragged into hopeless or tactically unsound battles against both AI fleets and enemy players, by allied players ranging from kadet to flag kaptajn. There are even a couple of players who have done this to me multiple times. Still, I have no suspicion that they are actually working against my nation. In all likelihood they are just more eager to see big battles, less concerned with loosing their ship, and more hungry for battle and XP than what I am.

If this happens a lot in the danish nation, it stands to reason that it should happen at least a few times in GB as well, who has a much larger player base and conversely more noobs and inexperienced pvpers as well.

Also, having played fleets in danish waters with moat of the russian players at one time or another, I find it not surprising at all if a belle poule or basic cutter was able to sail through the battle without taking that much damage. Most experienced fleet hunters in the danish nation knows that in a brawl you do not waste your broadsides on a basic cutter, rennomee or belle poule, as you are more than likely to have your cannonballs hit the water or bounce, and those ships do not fire the moat potent broadsides back at you.

Edited by Anolytic
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THERE COULD BE A SIMPLE SOLUTION...?

 

At present only the player launching an attack and the player being attacked can see the attack circle and red crossed swords. This seems a bit ridiculous as any ship engaging another can be seen by all ships in the vicinity.

 

The solution would be to make the circle and crossed swords visible to all players within a certain distance, possibly the ship being attacked could have crossed swords of another colour (blue for example), this way everyone knows who is attacking who.

 

Any disputes and misunderstandings could then be resolved by all involved in the action as they know who did what. Before the action, players at risk of getting dragged in can try to avoid the action if they so choose.

 

If something like this proposed solution was implemented, a huge amount of frustration and resentment that this causes in game would be avoided.

 

Thanks everone for their comments - it looks like this is a pain in the backside for all nations.

Happy sailing

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I do like your suggestion mindnet56. It would be a nice feature. Though I would point out that finding out who was tagged, and who was the attacker is already extremely easy. Just hit tab in battle. The player name on the top left is the attacking tagger, the player on the top right is the one who was tagged.

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THERE COULD BE A SIMPLE SOLUTION...?

 

At present only the player launching an attack and the player being attacked can see the attack circle and red crossed swords. This seems a bit ridiculous as any ship engaging another can be seen by all ships in the vicinity.

 

The solution would be to make the circle and crossed swords visible to all players within a certain distance, possibly the ship being attacked could have crossed swords of another colour (blue for example), this way everyone knows who is attacking who.

 

 

 

This will not work if 20 people are attacking 20 people separately creating a huge visual mess. And we are sure people will do it to confuse the enemy.

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This will not work if 20 people are attacking 20 people separately creating a huge visual mess. And we are sure people will do it to confuse the enemy.

 

Perhaps just put an icon over top of any ship that's attacking any other ship (target does not need icon, just the attacker).

 

Then, at least, there is some warning that combat could be starting in that vicinity. We don't necessarily need the circle but SOME indication would be great.

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Perhaps just put an icon over top of any ship that's attacking any other ship (target does not need icon, just the attacker).

 

Then, at least, there is some warning that combat could be starting in that vicinity. We don't necessarily need the circle but SOME indication would be great.

 

I take the point that 20 ships attacking different targets in the same area would be horrible to look at.

 

Slamz comment would be simpler to implement and would give a good indication of what's going on. At the moment there is no way of knowing what is about to happen. I feel that this is an important issue with the game.

Otherwise - great game guys - well done, it's shaping up well !

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This will not work if 20 people are attacking 20 people separately creating a huge visual mess. And we are sure people will do it to confuse the enemy.

But is it the long term solution that we do not know a battle is about to take place if we are neither tagger nor taggee?

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Last night at Serrana A one day old midshipman called Kapitain totally ruined the blockade by pulling us all into battle allowing the flag to escape the blockade. Something needs to be done about this bulls&*t, because they are just abusing and show no signs of stopping. The Clan was RUS so i'm going to go out on a limb and say it was one of them, but ofc they will deny it.

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