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Arsilon

Production Building Testing Results

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[EDITED TO INCLUDE FEEDBACK FROM OTHERS]

So we have been trying to figure out how the new production buildings actually work.  There is some behavior we haven't been able to fully explain and I haven't found anything here that fully documents how the mechanic works fully.  There is still a low of conflicting information as well which doesn't really help.

 

Building Purchase/Upgrade:

So far it seems like the cost to build a building and the price for each upgrade tier is constant.  It does not change based on the port or based on how many other buildings you have built.  It does not seem to change based on the number of other players that have buildings in that port.  Please confirm if anyone has seen any other behavior.

 

Resource Generation:

So far it seems like the rate of production for each building is constant.  It does not change based on the natural supply of that port.  A port that has a natural supply rate of X does not make the building produce at a different rate than if the natural supply is Y.  Again it also does not appear to change based on the number of other players generating the same port or the number of players that have buildings in a given port.  It seems to be a static increase in supply rate based on the building, eg 100 Hemp per day at level 1 and 150 Hemp per day at level 2.  Again our testing has been limited so let me know if anyone has seen anything different or if you have tested any other interdependencies.

 

Resource Collection:

This is where testing is continuing to have inconclusive results and where you see the largest amounts of conflicting information so I will break it down further.

 

Labor Hour consumption:

There were some initial theories that buildings would generate supply independently and you only needed to use labor hours if you wanted to accelerate that.  Testing has debunked that.  Labor hours (and gold) is used to extract that from the built up supply.  I need to collect data points that confirm what the differences are in that consumption based on the other factors.

 

Question:  What is the difference in labor hours required per unit at the various building levels?

Level 1 = 1 hour per 2 units for Hemp, Coal, Fir, Iron, Oak, Pine, Stone, Teak

Level 1 = 1 hour per 1 unit for Silver, Compass, Lignum, Copper, Live Oak, Red Wood

 

(From Selak)

Level 2 gives 5% labor efficiency.  It consumes 1 labor hour per resource made at lvl 1.  At level 2 it uses 0.95 labor hours per unit produced but the game rounds up to nearest hour so 19 units uses 19 labor hours but at lvl 2 20 units will also use only 19 hours.  If the increase is 5% efficiency per level then I would assume that 10 units made will use 9 labor hours at lvl 3 (10% more efficient) and lvl 5 (20% more efficent) will make 5 units for 4 labor hours.  Multiples work as well so at level 2 its every 20 units uses 19 labor hours as the last batch i pulled from the building was 40 units and it used 38 labor hours.

 

 

 

Gold Click Cost:

This appears to be a dynamic amount but what it is based on is not clear.  One theory was that it is based on the number of people that have buildings since the first day of the patch the per unit click cost for Iron was 150 for a level 1 mine and then it changed to 156 the following day potentially since more people were setting up mines in that port.  The problem here is that you would expect to see the price fluctuate from port to port if this were the case.  So the next theory was it being tied to market price which has been validated to some extent but some questions still remain.

 

For example:  Consider all at Level 1 buildings: 

 

Day 1 per click price on Iron was 150 per click = 75 per unit.

Day 2 per click price on Iron was 156 per click = 78 per unit.

 

If you look in several ports this equates to the current Buy price on the market for iron at 78 gold per unit.  However, if you look at Hemp cost per click it is at 50 gold per unit/click where the local market price is at 117.  This would suggest you could find it at another port for 117 which I have not been able to validate fully is the case.  I'm assuming this would be server wide so I might never be able to fully confirm this without other help to validate.  We know the price will change and it seems most likely that it is based on the lowest currently available AI price across all ports.  This still needs more cross nation data points.

 

 

Any other things that people have tested?

Edited by Arsilon

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Well from what the devs wrote when first showing the production building is that the price is always the min AI price... What i have seen till now correlates with that

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Well from what the devs wrote when first showing the production building is that the price is always the min AI price... What i have seen till now correlates with that

 

Presumably that is server wide and not nationwide?  It certainly wouldn't be game wide across server would it?

 

So if you see a per unit click price of X, regardless of what you are seeing in a given port, somewhere on the server there is an excess in supply that you just need to go find.  It may not even be available in your nation at all which is why I have not been able to validate it for sure yet on my server?

Edited by Arsilon

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Presumably that is server wide and not nationwide?  It certainly wouldn't be game wide across server would it?

 

So if you see a per unit click price of X, regardless of what you are seeing in a given port, somewhere on the server there is an excess in supply that you just need to go find.  It may not even be available in your nation at all which is why I have not been able to validate it for sure yet on my server?

every resource has a min and a max AI price, from what the devs have said the price of the resources in production buildings is always that min price, the min price is the price that you get when a port that produces an item has a large surplus of said resource.

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every resource has a min and a max AI price, from what the devs have said the price of the resources in production buildings is always that min price, the min price is the price that you get when a port that produces an item has a large surplus of said resource.

 

Well this I can disprove then.

 

Day 1 per click price on Iron was 150 per click = 75 per unit.

Day 2 per click price on Iron was 156 per click = 78 per unit.

 

So that means the the price can change.  If you said that price was current minimum available price OK.  If you said minimum possible price then the actual numbers do not support that theory.  In addition, I know the per unit price of Iron can go MUCH lower than 75 per unit unless they changed all historical pricing as well in this patch.

Edited by Arsilon

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Well this I can disprove then.

 

Day 1 per click price on Iron was 150 per click = 75 per unit.

Day 2 per click price on Iron was 156 per click = 78 per unit.

 

So that means the the price can change.  If you said that price was current minimum available price OK.  If you said minimum possible price then the actual numbers do not support that theory.  In addition, I know the per unit price of Iron can go MUCH lower than 75 per unit unless they changed all historical pricing as well in this patch.

well i know that when they doubled the iron production, they also increased the iron Prices, i have yet to see iron after the patch any lower than 78 per unit, it might have been a glitch or something

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Nice work Arsilon.

 

I have also done some testing and what I have found is pretty much the same as you.

 

The cost of harvesting/mining resources seems to be constant everywhere and I haven't yet seen it go up or down day to day but I have just done limited testing.

 

I'm sure all of us will get an even better picture in the coming days.......and now I'm going to pay closer attention to this.

 

I did see iron on the market at $75 once yesterday but I think that might have been from a player selling it at below cost.......at least that's what I assumed.

Edited by Bert Beard

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The costs of mining is the same min cost it seems.  The cost of labor that takes away crafting labor is the cost of getting it at mine/factory pricing.  There does not seem to be a change in the amount that is generated by other cities and this can be used to crash the pricing in different high occupancy areas.  This does not cause you to lose money as if you bought it someplace that did not product and then sold it some place that did not consume. The build rate seems to be a real day rate.   

 

The fact that I now have a outpost in a town at risk has caused me to put protection in the port via a ship that I can man to defend the port.  This causes more demand for builders and ai builders.  A good thing.

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I did a gold mine and this is what i can tell you i have experienced.

 

No mater how many units I make from the building at one time, It costs 79 gold per unit.  storage is always enough for 3 days at current level.  Level 1 is 20 gold a day, level 2 is 30 gold a day (i have not upgraded past level 2)

 

Level 2 gives 5% labor efficiency.  It consumes 1 labor hour per resource made at lvl 1.  At level 2 it uses 0.95 labor hours per unit produced but the game rounds up to nearest hour so 19 units uses 19 labor hours but at lvl 2 20 units will also use only 19 hours.  If the increase is 5% efficiency per level then I would assume that 10 units made will use 9 labor hours at lvl 3 (10% more efficient) and lvl 5 (20% more efficent) will make 5 units for 4 labor hours.  Multiples work as well so at level 2 its every 20 units uses 19 labor hours as the last batch i pulled from the building was 40 units and it used 38 labor hours.

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ATM some goods benefit greatly from gathering from building while others do not.

 

Coal for example is a gold/unit cost of 13, which what you can find it for in many ports. (ignoring cost in labor)

Hemp is 75ish which is well under as stated above.

 

This will all become a little moot as NPC production is phased down.

 

Main issues I can see on the individual level is the restriction to 5 total buildings.  this means even the most invested player resource producer is going to be casual at best, there is no way I see to be a 'full time' trader at this production volume....but that may be the intent.

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OK, so riddle me this.

 

If the latest theory holds true, that the per unit gold click price correlates to the lowest available AI price then explain the following.

 

Today Iron was clicking out at 234 gold per 3 units which is 78 gold per unit of iron ore.

 

Looking at the API data that has recently been provided, it looks like the lowest buy price available for iron should be 74 which shows at that price at 6 ports on my server.

 

So why is the click price 78 per unit and not 74?

 

If it was just one port I would have thought, perhaps its a contract price and maybe not AI price?  But the ports have balances there which suggest AI is indeed in effect.

 

Thoughts?

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OK, so riddle me this.

 

If the latest theory holds true, that the per unit gold click price correlates to the lowest available AI price then explain the following.

 

Today Iron was clicking out at 234 gold per 3 units which is 78 gold per unit of iron ore.

 

Looking at the API data that has recently been provided, it looks like the lowest buy price available for iron should be 74 which shows at that price at 6 ports on my server.

 

So why is the click price 78 per unit and not 74?

 

If it was just one port I would have thought, perhaps its a contract price and maybe not AI price?  But the ports have balances there which suggest AI is indeed in effect.

 

Thoughts?

 

Could those ports be ports that neither consume or produce the iron?  

 

Those ports have been admitted to pile up resources as people dump them as there is no way for them to become cleared.  Could that be the corner case.

 

EDIT: check the sellers using .  It could also be a player dumping the product below cost, perhaps because it was taken from a trader for "free", and they want quick cash.  A 1 unit contract for ridiculous prices could make things "look" way different than they really are.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Could those ports be ports that neither consume or produce the iron?  

 

Those ports have been admitted to pile up resources as people dump them as there is no way for them to become cleared.  Could that be the corner case.

 

EDIT: check the sellers using .  It could also be a player dumping the product below cost, perhaps because it was taken from a trader for "free", and they want quick cash.  A 1 unit contract for ridiculous prices could make things "look" way different than they really are.

 

These are other nation ports which I can't go in and look.  Part of why I'm posting this here since there is only so much I can personally do in game.

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If the latest theory holds true, that the per unit gold click price correlates to the lowest available AI price then explain the following.

It's not a theory, it's how the devs said it works: "Cost to mine (or grow) equals the NPC low range price."

I read that to mean the lowest cost available at the port in which the building is located, not the lowest cost for the good anywhere on the server.

These are other nation ports which I can't go in and look. Part of why I'm posting this here since there is only so much I can personally do in game.

Thanks to the newly released "API", you can now see all: http://www.ddz.net/navalaction/

It's only updated once per day, but it should provide a better baseline.

NOTE: The link to ddz.net is just one that someone here put together based on the released API code, is not official, and may go away at any time.

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I am basing my latest question based on the API data.

 

And I'm testing based on what the devs actually said and what we actually see.  I can't get the actual numbers to match how I have interpreted how they said it should work.

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OK, so riddle me this.

If the latest theory holds true, that the per unit gold click price correlates to the lowest available AI price then explain the following.

Today Iron was clicking out at 234 gold per 3 units which is 78 gold per unit of iron ore.

Looking at the API data that has recently been provided, it looks like the lowest buy price available for iron should be 74 which shows at that price at 6 ports on my server.

So why is the click price 78 per unit and not 74?

If it was just one port I would have thought, perhaps its a contract price and maybe not AI price? But the ports have balances there which suggest AI is indeed in effect.

Thoughts?

78 is indeed the lowest NPC price (or was, anyway... not sure if production reduction messed with this value), based on the capped amount of Iron Ore an Iron Ore-producing port will stack up. Prices below the natural NPC low-price occur when players sell resources to a production port already at or near this cap. Usually the result of players capturing contraband/enemy nation traders and dumping the goods.

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Yeah, looking at the data, I'm not sure the min value has stayed intact after the 20% reduction in NPC resource production. Is anyone dumping this data to a database? Historical values would be nice to have.

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So either there is still something I don't understand, something the devs have not explained properly, or it isn't working the way it is supposed to.

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I am starting to pick things apart with the help of the API data and my own observations of what I've seen in various French ports.

 

I think the reason that the click price for Iron Ore has a floor of 78 rather than 74 is this: 78 is the lowest price at which an NPC will produce Iron Ore and sell it to a shop, because that is the price when the shop quantity is between 2400 and 2600.  When the shop quantity exceeds 2600 we see the lowest selling price of 74, but the lowest selling price isn't the same as the lowest production price because production stops when the shop quantity reaches 2500.

 

For Iron Ore, here is the equation for shop buy price:

buy(x) = INT(MAX(149*0.5,149*1.2-(149*1.2-149*0.5)/2500*INT(A2/200)*200))

 

And here is the equation for shop sell price:

sell(x) = INT(MAX(149*0.4*0.5,149*1*0.5-(149*1*0.5-149*0.4*0.5)/2500*INT(A2/200)*200))

 

149 is the 'base price' for Iron Ore (from the API). 1.2 and 0.5 are the buy price coefficients, and 1.0 and 0.4 are the sell price coefficients.  there is also a sell discount of 0.5 applied (this is listed as SellPriceCoefficient in the API).  2500 is the MaxQuantity from the API, and the INT(x/200)*200 is due to the PriceTierQuantity being 200 (shop prices fall into pricing 'buckets' based on quantities of 0-200, 200-400, 400-600, etc.).

 

the equations above might be off exactly at the bucket boundaries (I did not check to see whether a price change happens at quantity 999, 1000 or 1001 for example).

 

So, from the equations above the lowest buy price of 78 occurs when the quantity is from 2400-2600, but once quantity passes 2500 NPC production stops.  for price buckets past 2600, the 'floor' buy price of 74 is reached and never goes lower.

 

edit: these equations may not apply in ports where the resource is consumed.  for example in a port that has NPC consumption of Iron Ore, the shop prices may be higher than given by these equations.

Edited by Taralin Snow

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I've noticed the price of Iron go below the base price of $78 a few times ( down to $74-$76 ) but I always assumed it was because of someone selling it below cost.

Never had the time to do a detailed analysis.........interesting research Taralin.

 

Has anyone noticed this happening with other resources, where the selling price will be below the price we can make it at ?

Edited by Bert Beard

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Yea I have.  Not many details, but I have noticed it on Fir (14 not 15) and silver on a port that only produced a couple hundred a day.  Somebody sold it like 300 and it went to 36 I believe.

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assuming I've done the math correctly, here is a list of minimum shop buy price versus minimum craft price (excluding sell orders which can cause buy price to go even lower):

Item		Shop	Craft
----		----	----
Coal		13	13
Compass Wood	500	528
Copper Ore	21	22
Fir Log		15	15
Gold		76	79
Hemp		50	50
Iron Ore		74	78
Lignum Vitae Log	125	131
Live Oak Log	50	52
Oak Log		25	25
Pine Log		15	15
Red Wood Log	25	26
Silver		37	39
Stone Block	5	5
Teak Log		22	23
Edited by Taralin Snow

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