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I'm of the opinion that micromanagement of steering in general isn't a good feature to look into. Because simply put, the game's helm is a car's steering wheel, and the ships are on auto-pilot. They steer absolutely, unerringly straight, with only very slow deviations when using manual skipper. It has nothing to do with the actual business of steering any kind of sailing vessel, because that's out of the game's scope, in simulation territory.

 

 

Just another off-topic side note, due to the nature of the traction between tire and road, cars indeed have a leeway as well. And according to DIN 70000, it is called "Schwimmwinkel β" which means analogously swim angle.

 

Schwimmwinkel

 

I doubt this has been simulated in any car/racing game so far. Yet, we can still feel, that some games are simulation-like and others arcade-like. The details and real-life like mechanics make the difference. And as you said, to implement those mechanics is up to the devs. This topic is just a suggestion.

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Without a full micromanagement of the rudder (controlling the helm angle), the game could feature a "rudder turn slider" which would enable to choose between a slight or a tight turn. It doesn't seem particularly needed yet, but with turn rate acceleration and turning deceleration, it would be both realistic and interesting regarding gameplay.

 

The helmsman would still correct the constant pressure (rig balance) and fluctuating pressure (luff due to swell and gusts), and we would control the desired turn of the ship (actual maneuver relative to the course).

 

That was all my point.

 

I am actually impressed after many years how well Taleorn, the dev at FLS, worked out the sailing dynamics. It is missing some things but still influential.

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  • 1 month later...

I do a lot of flight simming and I know a lot of real pilots and find that constant control input is necessary. In a ship this is necessary as well. One must make small course adjustments due to lee way from wind or currant. Full left or full right rudder only will not work. I'm sure you all have read captains admonishing their quartermasters "Steer small, Damn you!" or "Yer sails luffin, Damn yer eyes?" Why just the eyes? I can think of better body parts to damn. I digress. AD rudder command id good when actually steering the ship. Rudder position was determined by the helmsman and his knowlage and feel of/for the ship. There was no rudder position indicator that I know of. I may be saying stuff that has allready mentioned since I tend to skim. This post is a bit late and after the fact as well, but I needed a place to write Steet Small! and Damn yer eyes!. I do want the option of helming my ship and to do that, small course corrections are needed.

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Well, for me the simple fact is that sometimes you will want, sometimes, to manoeuver subtly to close the enemy without them necessarily noticing. To manage laying alongside to board a vessel will require fine manoeuvring. There are so many occasions when this will be desirable I would have to say beginning with an all or nothing setting is definitely a big negative. Now if that is to be the case we should have some form of rudder indicator, no matter how crude and inaccurate and crude and inaccurate would suffice IMO and be entirely realistic. A helmsman would steer a course by compass or leading mark and given the natural tendency of any vessel to deviate from a course as a result of wind and wave action, fine adjustments are required to correct this. It would also be entirely unrealistic to use a 40 or 50 degree rudder angle to alter course by 5 or 10 degrees to bring guns to bear, when in doing this you would want as stable a platform as possible at the end of the manoeuver.

 

Just my thoughts....

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I do a lot of flight simming and I know a lot of real pilots and find that constant control input is necessary. In a ship this is necessary as well. One must make small course adjustments due to lee way from wind or currant. Full left or full right rudder only will not work. I'm sure you all have read captains admonishing their quartermasters "Steer small, Damn you!" or "Yer sails luffin, Damn yer eyes?" Why just the eyes? I can think of better body parts to damn. I digress. AD rudder command id good when actually steering the ship. Rudder position was determined by the helmsman and his knowlage and feel of/for the ship. There was no rudder position indicator that I know of. I may be saying stuff that has allready mentioned since I tend to skim. This post is a bit late and after the fact as well, but I needed a place to write Steet Small! and Damn yer eyes!. I do want the option of helming my ship and to do that, small course corrections are needed.

 

The difference with a ship in comparison to an aircraft is that you have a crew and as you say a quartermaster to do all of this for you.

The helmsman will keep you on the course you want. You should have to do things like shorten sail to adjust lee though.

 

Rudder control should be by points of the wheel. But the helmsman should then keep you on that course.

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I do indeed agree with you Destraex. Normally the captain gives an order such as, "Two points to larboard." This of course means that some of us may need to learn exactly what a point equals, my self being one of them. At this point I do not know the exact mechanics of the game and how a captain controls the ship. I would like to steer on occasion  though. Let the leftennants work their gun crews. And yes I wrote lieutenant as it is sometimes spoken. Still, I can't wait to play with a ship again and learn how to handle her. I shall pre-order on Monday(payday). Right now I need to go service the lav on a CRJ 200. My glamorous job in the aviation industry.

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I come from a flight simulator background myself. Also own a tank simulator, steel beasts pro PE... none of the world of tanks rubbish with no infantry or supporting combined arms. You miss the point if you play WOT.

The main reason I am excited about this is it is as close to an age of sail warfare simulator we have seen so far. It is fun to boot (not too dry).

 

The alternative Pirates of the Burning Sea which I have never played but have been watching videos of for comparison looks very silly in comparison when I think of aiming and the speed combat happens at.

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Whether a precise rudder control is needed/useful or not, have been already discussed in this topic.

 

However, I would like to point out beside usefulness, that this kind of all or nothing, 1 or 0, full turn or zero turn approach is completely ruining the realism feeling of the game.

 

To make it clearer, I will try to compare two different speeds. First one is sailing speed, which is the speed in sailing direction. Second one is turning speed, which is the turning speed in degree/seconds while turning the ship to port or starboard.

 

Assuming the ship has maximum sailing speed of 12 knots and maximum turning 2 degree/seconds.

 

Sailing speed and turning speed

 

If we compare the two speeds, right now, we can see that you can set ship's sailing speed (disregarding the mast conrols)

  • 100% Full sails
  • 75% Battle sails
  • 50% Half speed
  • 0% Full stop

For turning speed however,

  • 100% corresponds 2 degree/seconds
  • 0% corresponds 0 degree/seconds

This is all or nothing approach. However, captain should be able to choose more precise turning speeds to set ship's course rather than full or nothing turns. At least turning speed might be adjustable like sailing speed.

  • 100% full turn corresponds 2 degree/seconds
  • 75% turn corresponds 1,5 degree/seconds
  • 50% turn corresponds 1 degree/seconds
  • 0% turn corresponds 0,5 degree/seconds

On the other hand, I would vote for much more gradable speed throttling for both sailing and turning speed rather than 4 grades.

 

Instant turning ruins it...

 

If we go one step further, it is the time the ship needs until reaching her maximum turning speed. This is related to the turning acceleration of the ship.

 

When the ship set sails, she would not reach this top speed in sailing direction instantly. Instead she accelerates to her top speed within time. This time depends on the acceleration of the ship, which is directly proportional to the force affecting the ship. (Which is the sum of the wind force on sails and water drag against the ship) Same goes for slowing down the ship. When the sails were lowered, the ship would not stop instantly, else it will slow down over time under the effect of her inertia and the water drag against it. This is the deceleration of the ship in sailing direction.

 

Now if we look to turning speed, it has similar characteristics. When you turn the rudder, the maximum turning can not be reached instantly. Instead the turning speed will accelerate to the maximum turning speed within time. Depending on the rudder/ship size ratio it might take several seconds (which is right now in milliseconds i.e. instantly in the game). But ship would not reach her maximum turning speed instantly. The time to reach to top turning speed depends on the turning acceleration, which is a result of the forces on rudder and water drag. Same goes for releasing the rudder. Lets say the ship is turning with constant 2 degree/second turning speed and than the rudder is released/neutralised. Under the effect of rotational inertia and the water drag against it, the ship's turning speed would decrease over time and converge to zero in several seconds.(which is right now in milliseconds i.e. instantly in the game)

 

The sailing mechanics in saling direction are modelled quite good though, so that the ship accelerate to her maximum speed over time simulating realistic behaviour. However, the mechanics for turning causes instantaneous turns reaching maximum turning speed within milliseconds which results in instant, arcadish movements.

 

Too see this effect ingame, you can switch to fire-mode view while sailing with maximum speed. Then try to target a ship. When you try to maneveur with your target aimed, you would notice the instant turning. And if you finish your turning releasing the A or D key, you would see the instant stop of the turning. This is the very reason why turning in NA feels arcadish.

 

If the sailing speed in sailing direction would be modelled like the turning speed; when setting full sails, the ship would reach her maximum speed instantly and when you lowered the sails, ship would stop instantly.

 

You can check this post to visualise those effects.

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From what I read, a mariner's compass was divided into 32 points, which would make 11.25° per point.

 

Steering (by ourselves or by the helmsman) is done with A/D currently, but setting a compass course could be a good option. Maybe it should be a true heading though, to simplify the magnetic declination.

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  • 2 months later...

Evening Gents,

 

 Question: How are you controlling your rudder?

 

 I've noticed on some "YouTube" videos their rudder movement is smooth, and have seen "what looks like" locking it in place.

Mine is just a never ending battle of tapping  A and D. Constantly tapping them while also trying to Aim and keep a straight line while firing. If I stop, my ship just wants to spin in a circle.   :huh: 

 

Any help will be greatly appreciated!  

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" Basically a double tap should lock the rudder. One tap in the opposite direction unlocks it and returns it to centre. "

 

If thats to answer my question. Sadly, none of it works.

All double tap's on either A or D  just put my rudder either full Left/Right. My rudder never sits centre....ever. Its either full left or full right.

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