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Wind and its role


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The weather gauge is important because it allows you to bring the enemy to action and achieve a decisive result. That's the whole ballgame. Any tactical advantages are just nice extras, but the Royal Navy doesn't care about tactical advantages because the Royal Navy always wins.

 

I think that sums it up.

 

 

In game terms, it must be said that it is rather difficult to avoid being raked by a vessel charging down from to windward.

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I always thought the weather gage just gave the windward ship the choice of fighting or running away, which would naturally give the ships with the weather gage a much better winning percentage.  

 

If i were the downwind ship, I would run downwind to get some headway then I would present my broadside to the charging ship at maximum range, all my gun ports to windward, thus pointing up high.  He would have take a long range salvo because if he presented his broadside his gun ports would be pointing down, thus shortening his range.  

 

I see no problem with downwind fights being interesting as long as there is room to run, if there is some artificial "gamey" border then that would be the problem.    

 

Keep in mind, I'm just basing this on my imagination, since I haven't played any game yet.

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Do all these modern square riggers tacking like crazy have modern materials in the sails, fittings, rigging and masts?   Not that I have problem with quick tacking, just curious.

Nope! Though it is worth noting that the Star does have 19th-century amenities such as improved windlasses and the iron hoops at the foot of the mizzen. All the reproductions otherwise have period-appropriate rigging and equipment, merely supplemented by modern tools that are legally mandated and generally used only in case of need.

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Most sail training ships these days use synthetic running and standing rigging and sails, usually a synthetic that replicates the look and feel of hemp, but lasts 9x longer because it doesnt rot.  Most of the sail training tallships are run by non profit organizations and simply would not still be afloat if they had to replace all the ships hemp and manila lines every year.  There are a couple exceptions, Niagara has all natural manila running rigging, and the Swedish ship Gotheborg and French frigate Hermione are 100 percent natural fiber rig and sails.  the change in material in the sails and lines doesnt affect how the vessels tack, it just prevents rot.  all traditional rigging practices are usually followed depending on vessel.  What affects tacking is the same as its always been, sail area, sail plan, hull shape, and hull length.  It certainly would have been a careful procedure to tack a great whomping first rate, if you called the braces at the wrong time it would be a big screwup because the sails are so huge, you wouldnt get away with a slightly botched tack like you might on a vessel with smaller lighter rig.  Also the heavier the weather, the less sail you are carrying, so when tacking, you dont man all the braces as in light weather, if you just have close reefed topsails up, the topsail and course braces are the only ones that need to be manned, the higher yards not in use do not get braced usually they stay square.  So you can allocate more men to the difficult job of bringing the topsail and course braces around.  Tacking is definately a technical procedure but it was a standard procedure, and should not have ever been a problem under mild to fresh gale circumstances.

  In the event the ship could no longer make headway close hauled then the ware was the best option, but you also lose a lot of ground in a ware. 

 

All of the spars, yards, gaffs and booms, and masts, of the vessels I have sailed on are solid douglas fir spars, made to the correct historical dimensions, the masts are in in three sections in the earlier era, lower, top, and topgallant masts.  More popular in later era especially with schooners was just a lower and a topmast.  I have lots of pictures of Lady Washingtons rigging, she was rigged almost entirely out of the pages of "the young sea officers sheet anchor" which was a book published in the early 1800's as a guide to the fitting out and rigging of ships of war in the British Navy for young officers.  Have a look at my flikr account, look at the detail shots, all rope stropped blocks, that have had the strops wormed, parcelled, and served, standing rigging is line not wire, all sorts of different served rope strops for various purposes.

 

The picture is of a topsail clew block that I made a new strop for, in the traditional manner, wormed, parcelled, and served with strong tarred twine.  The stopper knot at the end gets fitted into the bight of sail called the clew.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/116121315@N07/12260047774/

 

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/116121315@N07/

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On a side note here, check out facebook, Naval action has posted videos!  the graphics look amazing!!  I'd like to see the yard bracing animation though.  And sail setting.   This game is going to be phenomenal.

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I think it only fair to ask Admin if, at this point, the original post contains still-active questions. A lot can happen in 7 months of a game's development!

 

So, has the situation changed? If so, what mechanical or other adjustments did you make to change it, and how has it changed? If not -- or at least, not to your liking -- how can your Navy of Armchair Admirals™ help?  :D

 

 

I'd say questions 4) and 5) are still active, but the overall Wind and its role question also, regarding naval combat.

 

1) is already answered, and 2) and 3) are currently much more easily performed than described, but will be further tested.

 

Also see: http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/211-navigation-exploration-and-time-travel/ (3. and 4. - extended to weather and its role)

And: http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/130-maps-and-combat-scenarios-help-wanted/ if some ideas pop up reading this thread

I think some thread about naval combat tactics will be needed at some point, but maybe it's too early.

 

I think the armchair has sailed in the right direction in this thread, i.e. naval combat and weather gage. Maybe wind, islands and estuaries could be included (different wind flows, wind from sea or from land etc) - but much more complex and at the moment I'm oscillating between a lie-in and an after-lunch siesta :P

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The weather gauge is important because it allows you to bring the enemy to action and achieve a decisive result. That's the whole ballgame. Any tactical advantages are just nice extras, but the Royal Navy doesn't care about tactical advantages because the Royal Navy always wins.

 

I think that sums it up.

 

 

In game terms, it must be said that it is rather difficult to avoid being raked by a vessel charging down from to windward.

The downwind units can run as easily as you can chase.

 

Having the weather does not guarantee engagement, it does, however give you the initiative. I think that is the point with respect to demanding attack of officers in the RN. If they have the weather, they can at least try and chase down the prey. If the enemy turns to engage, you have a fight, and if they run and escape, at least the logs of your junior officers will show that you did everything possible to give chase. Rereading Rodgers this weekend, I certainly see his discussion of how many Post Captains were waiting for commission as a reasonable incentive to not be removed of command for being insufficiently aggressive. There were many, many Captains on half pay all the time (and a ton of Lieutenants, since they were not really controlled in number, you had to just pass the test, and Mids were picked by the Captains as needed).

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As above. It's about options, not winning. I love being on passage and spying another traditional vessel to leeward as the sun comes up. There's a good chance I can bear away half a point and crack the sheets and catch up for a bit of a sail in company. If I see them to windward however, then unless they drop down to see me, I will not be able to close them. Ground made to windward is balanced by loss of speed.

Either can flee, either can evade, either can try to fight. But only the windward vessel has quick contact as a relatively easy option, which I feel is the basic seamanship point that often gets over complicated. Interesting to hear about other aspects of the doctrine, thanks Tater and Maturin.

Baggy

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In my mind there should be no reason for these actions in the game to always drift down wind.  If the ships can brace the yards as I've seen and can sail on a beam reach, 90 degrees to the wind, and not make unrealisticly large amounts of leeway these engagements should not always end up to leeward.  For example the Lee gauge ship merely sails along on a beam reach pounding the ship that is bearing down to windward, and the windward ship either ends up destroyed or passes by trying for a stern shot, and the lee ship becomes the windward ship and starts firing the opposite side.  Or both ships could be sailing along on a beam reach or even close hauled next to eachother duking it out broadside to broadside.

 

How much leeway is currently programmed into the game?  Even in Empire total war I always endeavor to engage the enemy as close as possible, usually if your running downwind you are either trying to escape or give yourself some room to re adjust your tactics before attacking again.  Even though alot of things make no historical sense in empire I have been able to use Nelsonic Era fleet tactics to make an absolute mess of the opposing fleet.

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The reasons from my point of view, come from the naval combat tactics. It is most of the time more advantageous as a fleet to use the power of the wind, than trying to gain to windward (see post #4 1.). In PotBS at least, the open sea fights always tended to drift down wind.

 

Also there's no leeway as of yet.

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How far away does an engagement start in PotBS? Admin said current NA is 2-3 km, which is very, very close.

 

Any game which starts the tactical map at a couple thousand yards has basically abandoned maneuver I think as a given. Large, fleet level maneuver, anyway.

 

If you have 10 SOLs in line of battle, how close are the ships? Half a cable apart? That's 100m or so. A SOL is 150-200+ feet long, so 50-70m or so. So each ship in line takes up call it 150m at least. 10 ships is 1.5 km line. Try anything large scale and historical and you can double or triple that.

 

Start a map with the enemy 2-3 km away, and the bulk of the starting area is already filled with ships. There is no possible maneuver on any large scale that can happen. If you want any chance to really experiment with maneuver, you need to start at sighting distance. If you want any sort of tense, interesting frigate actions, ditto.

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The windgage is more than having the initiative. Its controlling the fight. When to engage, how to engage. The leeward ship can't do that. It can only wait for the the upwind ship to engage or it can run. It can't decide the action. (I'm assuming equal ships here)

 

Ill explain now for those wondering why. A ship upwind has full maneuverability and speed. It makes it easy for him to engage and to decide how to engage. For instance, he could choose to go right at em or he could choose to run down to one side of him in order to bracket him against a shore. He has options.

 

The leeward ship must tack into the wind to close distance and as Ryan has pointed out, that it approx. 50 degrees off the wind. Thats not a good closure rate and on top of that, the upwind ship with full maneuverability and speed can place his ship in a position to pound the leeward ship without putting his ship in a position to receive return fire. So unless the leeward ship is vastly superior to the windward ship and can take the hammering, the leeward ship will never initiate the engagement.

 

 


In game terms, it must be said that it is rather difficult to avoid being raked by a vessel charging down from to windward.

Between equal ships it would be quite easy to avoid being raked if you are the leeward ship in this scenario. As he charges you unload a broadside into him and then turn downwind. Both ships now going in the same direction. He will probably have speed on you so he will catch up or at least close distance. He has two choices. Range up along side of you or turn for the rake. If he turns you turn as well, matching his maneuver. He doesn't get to rake you assuming you have equally maneuverable ships. You though will almost never get a chance to rake him in his upwind position unless you can force him to tack through the wind or you demast him.

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There had to be many, many engagements that came to combat where the leeward ship was not superior, much less vastly superior. Parallel running with the wind dead astern is a special case (one vector out of infinite vectors) and every other case except exactly that has one ship windward of the other, even if just a little.

 

So basically all fights that ever happened had one side leeward, and none the less there was a fight.

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Checked Tunstall last night for some fleet reality checks.

 

Battle of Minorca: the RN was about close-hauled in line, with the french on an opposite , parallel course in line. The RN tacked in succession to a parallel heading in line with them, right in front of them.

 

Ushant (29 RN vs 32 French): the french wear in succession in the morning, then tack together before the squall hits. The RN then tack together at the beginning of the actual engagement. In the afternoon, the french van tacks again, but it falls into confusion, and the RN tacks in succession to follow. 

 

Byron and D'Estaing: the french tack or wear to St. George's Bay (some tack, some wear).

 

Battle of Negapatam: Sufferen (french) tacks to pass astern of Hughes, Hughes tacks to keep the weather gage.

 

Glorious 1st of June: On May 29th, before the battle of the later date's name, the RN tacked as a unit (late).

 

Battle of St. Vincent: RN tacks in succession.

 

Villenueve and Calder: Villenueve wears in succession, and the british tack in succession to parallel them.

 

So unambiguously, fleets tacked in combat.

 

<EDIT> on the very first page of this thread there is a video posted of some battle that looks like a very overcrowded, messy version of E:TW with ships spinning around with neon labels in the sky, etc. Is that PotBS? Regardless, um, yuck. :P

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Yuck is right, haha.  Yes squadrons maneuvered together in battle provided sea room was available, its a fact.

 

Also had the French and Spanish had more practice in gunnery at the battle of Trafalgar they may have put Victory and the first couple ships in line out of action before ever the french line was broken.  But being bottled up in the harbour under close blockade they had little or no gunnery practice, Nelson knew this, and therefore had confidence in his tactic.  You are very exposed when running downwind towards a ship that is 90 degrees relative to you, not only is his whole broadside brought to bear but the wind heeling the ship provides extra elevation so provided the gunnery is good they can dis mast or disable you before you get close enough to do damage.  A good Captain sticks with no particular tactic but reads every nuance of the situation until he is satisfied that he knows the outcome of the action given every different decision available to him.

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In a game, it's like herding cats, unfortunately. With a good squad (guild? whatever it is called here, I'm used to squad(ron)), people will follow a chain of command, and take orders at least.

 

In reality, if told to stay in line, and you didn't obey, you better end up winning the day, or otherwise being hugely successful, or you might be in potentially life-threatening trouble for disobeying orders (go out of line, then somehow end up disengaged through no fault of your own and they'd shoot you for cowardice). 

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  1. If any officer, mariner, soldier or other person in the fleet, shall strike any of his superior officers, or draw, or offer to draw, or lift up any weapon against him, being in the execution of his office, on any pretence whatsoever, every such person being convicted of any such offense, by the sentence of a court martial, shall suffer death; and if any officer, mariner, soldier or other person in the fleet, shall presume to quarrel with any of his superior officers, being in the execution of his office, or shall disobey any lawful command of any of his superior officers; every such person being convicted of any such offence, by the sentence of a court martial, shall suffer death, or such other punishment, as shall, according to the nature and degree of his offence, be inflicted upon him by the sentence of a court martial.

Dont leave your station kids.. the Admiral wont be happy.

 

Dont do this either

 

If any person in the fleet shall commit the unnatural and detestable sin of buggery and sodomy with man or beast, he shall be punished with death by the sentence of a court martial.

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There were two naval action games with quite fair sailing/fighting model - age of sail 2 and aos 2: privateer's bounty, some of you might know these games. For now I'm about aos 2: pb. What was the typically scenario for a duel (the easiest of battle type, imo) given the both sides are in equal initial positions relatively to wind? They were attempting to gain the wind gauge by setting the same course relatively to wind, thus it led to very close fight where one side was attempting to rake another. 

In a situation with windward and leeward sides the first one always dictated the fight, since there was no sence to the leeward side to say bye bye and flee. So, all the defending side was able at mid-close ranges - it's just use hit&run tactic while the windward side was attempting to rake. 

The reason of that - taking was too long and it was deadly to tacking at mid-close range, also, the game didn't count leeward advantages of better position to fire, so it  wasn't the most realistic naval simulation (but for sure - the most realistic of ever made games of the same genre) but I think the game gave the feeling of initiative absolutly great. I hope Naval Action will be around this + add the advantages of being leeward - that will suit all I guess...Also I think in the multiplayer mode (not mmo, it's another story) it's vital that initial position must be equal relatively to wind, but also there must be enough space to let both sides choose their tactics before they reach the fire range

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