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Cecil Selous posted a topic in SuggestionsI am thinking about this idea for a very long time and since I see that the complaints about demasting are on the rise again and that many mostly blame the accuracy of our cannons for this, I decided to present this Idea in a hopefully fashionable manner. Keep in mind these are just some ideas I have and want to share. I don’t insist that these should be implemented nor would I be frustrated if they won’t (I will just write a bad steam review ). I too think that our cannons are far too accurate and thus enable players to snipe for specific parts of an hostile ship. Especially at longer ranges. Also the speed of changing your point of aim, acquiring a new target and the feeling of disconnection of the cannons from the ship, bothers me. Our cannons act like they are mounted on modern turrets. You can single shoot masts and if you miss you can instantly adjust your point of aim (horizontal and vertical) and shoot again with almost no delay whatsoever. Also, the up and down motion of the ship doesn’t influence the aiming at all. Sure, heel does influence your max and min elevation, but doesn’t pose a real problem. So the main subject of my idea is, that the cannons and their point of aim really get fixed to the deck and are affected by roll, pitch and heel. So our aim bar constantly moves with the ship. The roll in the game right now is moderate to almost nonexistent because the sea in the instances is very calm. Maybe that should change too (variation). Heel can be significant but everybody should know by now how to minimize it. I don’t know if pitch plays a role, since aiming at the moment is not very much affected by the movement of the ship. Furthermore, the change of horizontal orientation and elevation of cannons should be a bit slower. Cannons were manhandled with handspikes to change these parameters. This took time and to instantly fire a cannon during this (like we can do now) wasn’t possible. So cannons in game should not be able to fire while being traversed or elevated. A simple example of how it could be shown to the player that his cannons aren't ready to fire during adjustments What will be the effects of this? Changing horizontal traverse and elevation isn’t almost instantly anymore. Adjusting your aim to snipe enemy masts in a fast manner isn’t an option anymore. To have a further option of balance. carronades could receive a buff in horizontal traverse speeds due to their carriages. Changing elevation fast to quickly aim at the waterline and right after that back at the hull or masts won’t be possible anymore. You must pre-plan your broadside. You must calculate how and where you want to aim and how to position your ship to get the best result. In fact you will mostly don’t touch the elevation setting of your cannons and aim with the ship now and keep your guns leveled to the deck and use roll to either shoot high or low. You don't wan't an arched flight path of your balls and want to keep it as flat as possible. Elevation then comes into place if you want to compensate for heel or are very close to your opponent but still want to shoot high. Also there would be a use for battle sails and people wouldn’t sail around with all sails set all the time. Full sails let the ship heel but also stabilize it against roll (although I somewhere read that higher speed makes the roll more unpredictable, sailing experts?). No sails on the other hand won’t let your ship heel as much but let your ship roll too unpredictable. Battle sails could be the middle ground between both extremes. A moderate heel and a moderate more predictable roll. I also read somewhere on the forum that the current battles sails layout isn’t exactly correct with set topgallants and royals but again, I think our sailing experts can prove me wrong on this or give better explanations. A downside with current firing mechanics in combination with my proposed idea above is that many shots of a broadside probably won’t hit due to the ship movement. Well at least if you are not right next to the enemy ship. Right now we can single shot with space bar or release a whole broadside with a mouse click, where many shots will miss and be wasted. I believe that no gun captain would fire his cannon if the target isn’t in sight (I assume he has a clear picture and is not hindered by smoke). Therefor I would like an additional way of releasing a broadside. This was an idea of @Hethwill some time ago. He suggested that, while you hold down spacebar your ship will fire a rolling broadside (front, back, random). If you release spacebar it will instantly stop and will continue at the next cannon if you hold spacebar down again. Maybe a general gimmick could be to let the player choose between 2 or 3 different rates of firing intervals. With one where almost all guns fire at the same time. This could increase the probability of a reload shock of your enemy. A downside could be that it also has a small negative effect on your structure. But that's just an extra and honestly not really needed. Until now I just made it harder to actually hit a target. I would also propose something more positive for the gunplay. As far as I know, the transparent fire sector roughly shows where the shots will land. I don’t know exactly where the aim bar is pointing but I assume it is somehow an elongation of the bore axis (of course somehow the average of all decks). I would like to keep it that way with a few adjustments. I will explain these things with a few pictures too. At first, all decks should be independent from each other. This means different point of aim and also different cannon loads per deck. You will basically see an aim bar for every deck (aiming all decks at once should still be possible). If you go into aim mode of a deck, the correspondent bar will be highlighted and a vertical axis for elevation and horizontal axis for traverse will appear. There would be middle markers (where the cannon is leveled/perpendicular to the deck) and min and max markers. This way you could load chain on the top deck and aim it a bit higher, while the two other decks are loaded with double shot. Or you are up close and preparing for a boarding action. So load your small top cannons with grape, while still pounding the gun deck and waterline with ball. Since it is a bit more complicated, I think UI wise it would be probably better to use the mouse for everything instead of smashing long button combinations (like 1 - 1 - 2 for example). no deck selected all decks selected and in aiming mode (chain loaded only on the top deck) all decks selected and traversed to the right example to show what I mean: only the lowest deck is selected and all decks are aimed differently In addition to that, captains should be able to mark up to three individual set settings on the elevation bar. You can experiment against AI or whatever you like and find some good settings that will help you in future battles. For example, you roughly know how far 200 meters are. With simple trial and error you can set the cannons of all decks to an elevation, where they will hit the target at 200 meters and roughly the same spot and mark it on the elevation bar. Doesn’t matter if the top deck consists of carronades while the other deck mounts longs. Or you keep your top deck always loaded with chain and aimed higher, because the low caliber won’t penetrate the hull of the enemy ship. example of premarked elevation settings. Deck 2 and 3 set to almost the same elevation, while deck one is elevated higher (the colors are just to make them more distinguishable) Since gunnery would be less accurate with those ideas, other things could also be adjusted. Like the thickness of hulls back to normal values. Leaks can be more dangerous (although I think they are fine as they are right now). Performance of cannons and carronades could be adjusted. Maybe introduce different firing mechanisms for cannons like flint lock and fuse ignition, which affects the delay between the command to fire and actual release of the round. So a rough overview of what these ideas can change Pros: no more easy mast-sniping (especially at long ranges) no more easy waterline sniping long range chaining very difficult - easier to escape a purpose for battle sails positioning and maneuvers are even more important more difficult to get the perfect rake (also affecting long range rakes) individual loadouts and aiming of every deck possible reintrodution of reasonable hull thickness because it is harder to hit consistently also adjustments of cannon damage possible to make up for worse accuracy (a really good broadside should have a big impact) Cons: too complex and over-complicating mechanics too difficult can be frustrating no real difference with current calm and invariable sea states/ship movements many others I bet.... Swivels. Since we introduced swivels with the new pirate refitted LGV I thought about a way to implement them to all ships. Every ship should have some places where you can install swivels if you want. An example is shown in the picture below. To fit swivels to your ship you have to select in port where you want them on your ship. Maybe limit the number of swivels so not every point can be equipped with them. The player could also be allowed to switch the positions during the battle. This should take some time of course. To man the swivels in the battle instance with crew, there should be a second option in the boarding menu (like press 9 and then 2 for “man swivels”) to fire the swivels you can switch between them and aim them personally at your target. I made some example pictures with a swivel aft and one at the fighting top. This can be a nuisance to smaller ships who like to stern camp your SoL. Those swivels can also be used in the new boarding mechanics if the devs are still on it. So, this was it. Remember, these are just some ideas I had.If everything stays as it is, fair enough
I'm a 20-year-old who has been fascinated with maritime history for over a decade. I love this game! Nevertheless, here are some suggestions to make the game more realistic. Suggestions for Endymion: Redesign her rigging and sails: Lead the tack of the innermost jib(Foretopmast staysail) to the Bowsprit cap (not to where the spritsail yard is). Lead the tack of the middle jib(jib) to the end of the jibboom( not to the cap of the bowsprit), and the head of the sail to the foretopmast crosstrees (not the topgallant) and make this the largest of the jibs. Add flying-jib-boom and extend the outermost jib(flying jib) to the end of the flying-jibboom(not to the end of the jib-boom), the head of the sail should lead to the top of the topgallant masts(not the end of the poles for royals) delete the spritsail topsail and spritsail topsail yard add a single (as on Trincomalee) or double (as on USS Consitution) dolphin striker. (Different ships carried different styles, but every frigate carried one Add a middle staysail (peak leading to the main topmast crosstree, knock to the middle of the foretopmast, and tack at the foretop platform) Delete the lowest staysail between the fore and mainmast, this sail would only be carried in a hurricane, in normal conditions it would interfere with the working of the riggning in the waste rendering the ship unmaneuverable in battle. Lead the peak of the highest staysail between the masts to the main topgallant (not to the top of the pole). Add a knock to the mizzen staysail(lowest staysail between the Mizzen and Main) Recreate the sizes of the sails and spars to fit those listed of HMS Endymion. Here are the parts of the sails listed above: Here is Endymion in the game: As compared to the rig of a 36-gun frigate built around 1795 (given the billet head instead of a figurehead, this was only used few ships for a short period between 1795-1797). Note the middle staysail lowered between the fore and main mast. Some sails that a ship of 1795 omitted on the model: Royals would be set on long poles above the topgallant sails(highest sails on the model) in light weather and the all the mizzen staysails and the main topgallant staysail are left out too. The lead of the martingale-stays suggest that the spritsail was rarely used and is indeed omitted on the model. Hence by 1797 Endymion would have rarely carried a spritsail. The spritsail topsail was obsolete and no longer rigged by 1795 and is omitted on the model. Notice the long dolphin striker similar to that of HMS Trincomalee. Here are the spar dimensions of the Endymion from 1808. Note all measurements of the length of the spars are in yards and inches separated by a hyphen. While the diameters are in inches Masts: Main: L 32-0, D 30+1/4 topmast: L 19-6, D 17+1/4 Topgallant: L 9-21, D 9+5/8 Pole (extension of the topgallant mast to carry royal sails): L 5 D 9+5/8 (dimensions not officially listed, but I reconstructed them from the spar plan of the modified Endymion class frigates) Fore: L 29-13, D 27+1/4 topmast: L 17-0, D 17+1/4 Topgallant: L 8-18, D 8+1/4 Pole: L 4-24, D 8+1/8 (dimensions not officially listed, but I reconstructed them from the spar plan of the modified Endymion class frigates) Mizzen: L 23-2, D 20 topmast: L 14-3, D 11+3/4 Topgallant: L 7-6, D 7+1/4 Pole: L 4-24, D 9+5/8 (dimensions not officially listed, but I reconstructed them from the spar plan of the modified Endymion class frigates) Bowsprit: L 19-19 D28. Jibboom: L 14-0, D 12 Flying jibboom: dimensions not listed, despite not being an official fitting, every frigate from about 1795 carried one. Yards: Main: L 28-26, D 19+7/8 topsail: L 20-24, D 12+7/4 Topgallant: L 13-8, D 8 royal: L 9, D 5 (dimensions not officially listed, but I reconstructed them from the spar plan of the modified Endymion class frigates) Fore: L 28-26 D 19+7/8 topsail: L 18-20, D 11+5/8 Topgallant: L 11-11, D 7+1/8 royal: L 8, D 4+1/2 (dimensions not officially listed, but I reconstructed them from the spar plan of the modified Endymion class frigates) Mizzen (Crossjack): L 28-26, D 19+7/8 topsail: L 18-20, D 11+5/8 Topgallant: L 11-11, D 7+1/8 royal: L 7, D 4 (dimensions not officially listed, but I reconstructed them from the spar plan of the modified Endymion class frigates) Spritsail: L 18-20, D 11+5/8 (same as foretop) Spritsail topsail: L 11-11, D 7+1/8 (This yard was obsolete never put up and should be omitted as it but instead carried as a spare for the topgallant yard, In fact, it was used so rarely that is was abolished issuing it by 1815) Dolphin striker: (Although not part of the official listings on spar dimensions, by 1795 Frigates had extended the flying jib with a flying jib boom that required a long dolphin striker with martingale-stays provide the downward force to prevent flying jibboom from braking, the very same martingale stays prevented ships from using the spritsail topsail as it was obsolete). Endymion might have had a double Dolphin striker like the USS Constitution and HMS Acasta (A British frigate of similar size to Endymion also built in 1797) Boom(spanker): L 20-24, D 11+5/8 Gaff(spanker): L 13-6 D 11+1/2 Note: Measurements of lower masts are from the mast-step not the deck. Also the masts would overlap at the tops and topgallant crosstrees. These can be seen in the spars of the modified Endymion class frigates (They had spars of reduced dimensions and greater diameter beacuse the ships were made of softwood): External Appearance: Add a large full body all white painted figurehead and delete the two rails running down the side of the waist not shown in the sheer plan. Paint scheme as of 1797 (The only one that doesn't require also redesigning the forecastle barricade,) The inside of the barricades were not red as they are in the game. This fell out of fashion in the 1780s. By 1797 they were blackyellow ochre. It is extremely unlikely that the Endymion was ever painted as she is in the game! The broad yellow band that extends between the wales and the rail above the gunports should be narrowed and lowered to the rail that is the height of the middle of the gunports to follow what was most common in 1797 (it is what is shown in most paintings and on most models). Compare the Endymion in the game to the model and note which rail the yellow band reaches on the profile draught: The unlikely alternative to this paint scheme for HMS Endymion 1797 would be a thin yellow band below the gunports similar to how HMS Shannon (and USS Chesapeake though not British)was painted as of 1813 and HMS Terpsichore was as of 1796. Here are the Shannon vs Chesapeake and Terpsichore vs Mahonesa: Stern: Her current stern in the game has a single curve over the transom which was a French and Spanish feature during the 1700s and early 1800s. British frigates by 1797 distinctly had separate curves over the galleries that protruded outside the ships hull and round stern gunports on the quarterdeck. They even went to the extent of redesigning the sterns of the ships they captured such as HMS Amelia ex-Proserpine. Here are examples of the Narcissus class 1801 and the Pallas class 1793: Furthermore, all British frigates of the 1790s had 9 panes of glass in their stern windows unlike in the game where Endymion has six: Here is the example on a model of the Ex-french Pomone modified to resemble HMS Endymion circa 1815 (although the paint scheme of the model is similar to that of 1797): Endymion's stern in the game wrongly resembles a French design such as that of the Volontaire shown below with a single curve around the whole stern galleries. Ships Boats As launched, Endymion was fitted with an 18 ft clinker built cutter(a small clinker-built multipurpose workboat dubbed the jollyboat), a 32 ft barge (a long narrow carvel built fast rowing boat), a 28 ft Launch (a wide heavy-duty carvel-built boat that could be armed with a 12 pounder carronade), and two 24 ft cutters (medium sized clinker-built workboats). The jollyboat was stowed on stern davits and the rest of the boats stowed in the waist. Post-1797 modification options By 1800: Solid barricades were built around the forecastle deck as shown in the earlier picture of the model. These are clearly shown on the inboard profile of the ship and on the model(note the model doesn't have the same position of the gunports on the forecastle because the model was originally of Pomone which Endymion was based on but had slightly different arrangements: The plan is accurate) and it is possible that Endymion was actually launched with them Modifications as of 1805(at this time Endymion was armed with 18-pounders not 24s): By 1805, Quarter davits were added and the two 24ft cutters were carried abreast the mizzen mast as can be seen on HMS Victory. Additional paint scheme option. The Nelson chequer was the most likely paint scheme as of 1805. Note the yellow band is narrower and follows the gunports, not the external planking. Here is the Nelson chequer as painted on HMS Euryalus in 1805 which was under Nelson's command at Trafalgar (note the solid forecastle barricades): Modifications as of 1811(also as armed with 18-pounders): Paint scheme: An order from the Admiralty of 1811 replaced yellow paint with white paint, nevertheless some captains continued to paint their ships yellow. Here is a possibility of how Endymion was painted, note the inside of the bulwarks are green. As of 1815 after her great repair and as she appeared during her battle with USS President: Ships Boats: Many captain's include captain Hope of Endymion replaced the 18 ft jollyboat with a 24 ft fast rowing gig. In preparation for foreign service (as opposed to channel service) a 24 ft cutter was replaced by a 25 ft yawl (carvel-built equivalent). The 12-pounder carronade was carried by the Yawl instead of the Launch. Hull Modifications: The full-length figurehead was replaced by a bust and the quarterdeck barricade extended forward to accommodate an extra gunport, meanwhile an extra beam was added to the quarterdeck extending the deck forward as well. The breastworks were deleted, top-riders (large diagonal timbers on the side of the ship to give the hull strength, but actually proved to weaken the hull) deleted, and gangways significantly widened. The result was what is shown on this model mean to depict HMS Endymion: The extension of the quarterdeck by one beam and the bulwark can be faintly seen drawn in pencil on the inboard profile (note the prominent diagonal fastenings in this plan: top riders were removed in the great repair): Furthermore, the opening between the forecastle and quarterdeck was further reduced by adding light gratings over the beams in the waist to create a makeshift spar deck as shown(ignoring the rounded off edges of the opening) on this model of HMS Lacedaemonian 1812 (model shows the ship post 1815 ) Pa)int Scheme: It had been documented in writing (the naval chronical) and in paintings that by 1815, HMS Endymion was painted all black as shown in these paintings: Rigging, spars and sails: Skysails, skysail yards and skysail poles were extended above the Royals, otherwise, the rigging remained the same. Thomas Buttersworth paints Endymion with a single dolphin striker, but all paintings of British frigates with skysails show double dolphin strikers. It is difficult to tell whether she had one or two. Thomas Whitcombe painting of HMS Acasta (1797), one of the other three 40-gun frigates built in 1797 like Endymion, as she appeared in 1806 rigged with skysail poles and a double dolphin strike(note the other frigate in the background only has royal poles and has a single dolphin striker): A minor detail is that after 1811, the sails would no longer be bent to the yards themselves(attached below) but rather to a jackstay allowing the sails to cover up the front each yard they were fastened to. Armament : Note: This section is displayed copied from Wikipedia, although I am the one that wrote the Wikipedia section. I listed this armament by cross-checking records in Robert Gardiner's Frigates of the Napoleonic Wars, Theodore Roosevelt's The Naval War of 1812, Andrew Lambert's The Challenge, and William James' Naval Occurrences with the plans of Endymion and the listed modifications to her hull. It is noteworthy that the exact innovations that Captain Philip Broke of HMS Shannon used regarding artillery were adopted and used to great effect by HMS Endymion during her battle with USS President. Prof. Lambert describes the structural damage that USS President suffered which resulted from Endymion's gunfire: 5/15 starboard (where Endymion engaged) main-deck damaged to the point of being disabled and 10/15 main-deck gun crews hit despite the battle being fought with both ships in motion with a swell from the gales the night before. Multiple holes between wind and water (24-pounders could pierce through the American 44s sides unlike the 18-pounder shot that bounced off USS Constitution giving her the name "Old Ironsides"). Shot from Endymion was even found inside President's magazine (aft power room). 6ft of water was in President's hold by the time she was captured (although some could have been from the night before). Many historians fail to mention in detain the effect of Endymion's firepower or the extraordinary accuracy allowed by Broke's system. Perhaps it would be worth increasing Endymion's reload speed and accuracy to represent Broke's innovations that captain Hope adopted? (By 1815 these methods were also used on the frigates HMS Spartan, HMS Euryalus, HMS Tenedos, HMS Shannon and perhaps more) 1797: Upper deck: 26 × 24-pounder guns (11 kg); QD: 6 × 32-pounder (15kg) carronades + 8 × 9-pounder (4kg) long guns Fc: 2 × 32-pounder (15kg) carronades, + 4 × 9-pounder (4kg) guns From Nov 1803 to 17 May 1813: Upper deck: 26 × 18-pounders (8 kg); QD:14 × 32-pounder (15 kg) carronades Fc: 4 × 32-pounder (15kg) carronades, + 2 × 9-pounder (4kg) guns From 17 May 1813: Upper deck: 26 × 24-pounder guns QD:16 × 32-pounder (15 kg) carronades Fc: 1 × 18-pounder (8 kg) brass long gun + 4 × 32-pounder carronades Additional unofficial armament: Ships boat: 1 × 12-pounder (5kg) gunnade Fighting Tops: Swivel mounted smaller guns