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Baggywrinkle

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Baggywrinkle last won the day on April 14 2014

Baggywrinkle had the most liked content!

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    All on the salt sea
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    Historic and traditional vessels, maritime history, rum

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  1. A dream I very happily share! I didn't mean to be quite so disparaging about all replicas (above post edited to soften it slightly), nor to do a disservice to the many that do a lot of good work for a lot of good causes. An exact replica of something extinct is magical, and the Cutty Sark point is spot on too (there is no chance of her floating again, and considering that the damage done to her fabric in the latest revamp is only just shy of criminal in my book). There is, without doubt, value in all of the pristine original (I would find it very hard to support a move to recommission Vasa or Mary Rose); the 'working original' (my favoured balance, if perhaps the trickiest); the replica (how cool is Hermione? I was not alone in wanting to use Grayhound, above, to mount a cutting out expedition... ) and the 'spirit of tradition' type of enterprise (Tres Hombres perhaps the most extreme/exciting example). I get worried and frustrated when attributes of one get superimposed on another, that's all really - it always seems to lead to information or material being lost. I was going to post some pretty pictures (earliest photographs, vs. original vs. replica pilot cutters), but I spent so long browsing that I've run out of time! Bloody boats... Baggy
  2. Actually, I'm rather cold-hearted when it comes to the materials, but a firm believer in a vessel's soul On a particularly old vessel, I did brag about her % of original timber to others from less 'pristine' vessels - but far more because of the years of continuous service those original timbers represented rather than anything to do with the actual wood. She didn't need a rebuild or a replica, because she had continued to provide a living to those who worked her for well over 125 years and had in return never been driven onto a mud bank to rot, but rather had earned the work her crew put in to keep her going. Conversely, I struggle with some of the bollocks value some seem to attach to replicas. To project the attributes of one vessel on to another is to do disservice to both, as do those 'restorations' which render the vessel unrecognisable to any of her previous crew. From the job market point of view, I love the number of new build traditional and replica vessels that have been churned out in the last 15 years or so by. However, I disagree almost entirely that a new build is required for the practice and preservation of some traditional skills - a major refit is a re-build, just with less than 100% replacement. All the skills from project management to forest management are taxed by such endeavours, just as with a new build. In fact, direct comparison with older/original timbers and works makes the refitter's job, if anything, more exacting than the new-builder's. The continuation of the vessel as an entity is much more important to me (historian by inclination, archaeologist by training and sailor by profession, so I happily admit to being pulled in both directions) than the age of any one of her timbers. Original materials have immense value as research and evocative educational tools...but there's no trouble, in my mind, squaring that with the punishing maintenance schedule all vessels must follow to not fall into disrepair; particularly wooden vessels; particularly those over a decade old. Happily, such materials better serve that purpose when removed from a vessel anyway Just because an axe is a "disposable tool" is no reason not to replace the handle... Baggy
  3. "Where in creeks and havens of the sea there used to be plenteous fishing, to the profit of the Kingdom, certain fishermen for several years past have subtily contrived an instrument called ‘wondyrechaun’..." - a beam trawl of 'modern' design with a 10ft beam, 18ft net length, weighted groundlines, the works - starts a petition to ban their use...presented to Parliament in 1376. Bans were introduced, two men were executed in 1583 for using trawls with metal ground chains. Taken from Edgar J March's wonder Sailing Trawlers and Davis' An Account of the Fishing Gear of England and Wales. So the technology was there, and was just waiting for the development of a powerful enough vessel to be taken offshore, which seems to have happened through the 18th Century, for truly modern deep-sea beam trawling to be born. Brixham, on the South Devon coast of the UK, was the largest fishing port of Medieval England; by 1635 the Dutch (other notable users trawls as in the first post) had paid the Crown £30,000 for fishing rights, and Brixham was a frequent market for them; by about 1780 Brixham was home of around seven 'deep sea' trawlers, at least three of which were known to fish east of Dungeness; giving evidence to Parliament in 1833, a Brixham fisherman called Walter Smith said he had been fishing (trawling) as far as Dover since before the French Revolution, and worked out of Sunderland, Durham and Hartlepool amongst others by 1830. March also gives plans for a Brixham beam trawler of the early 19th Century (this is from memory I'm afraid, I don't have a copy to hand) as well as at least one photo of a Brixham boat of about that vintage. Gaff cutter, very full forward (even by 'cod's head and mackerel tail' standards), fully decked, about 35ft LoD. By the 1860s the cutters were getting above 70ft on deck, and 40 tons, and by the 1870s were starting to be re-rigged and built as gaff ketches. The 'Brixham Trawler' as a type refers to these fairly large, incredibly powerful gaff ketches developed in the mid 19th Century and honed for the next 50 years or more. A Google image search would give plenty of good hits, but this is too lovely a photo to pass over. The ketch here is Galmpton-built (just over the hill from Brixham on the river Dart) trawler Leader LT474, 1892, the brigantine the engineless trading vessel Tres Hombres of http://fairtransport.eu/: From 'The Ports, Harbours, Watering-places and Picturesque Scenery of Great Britain' c.1830 comes the following equally lovely engraving and caption: (large version here) "Here busy boats are seen: some overhaul / Their loaded nets; some shoot the lightened trawl; / And, while their drags the slimy bottom sweep, / Stealthily o'er the face o' the waters creep;While some make sail, and singly or togetherFurrow the sea with merry wind and weather." W. Stewart Rose. "In the Engraving of Brixham Quay, from a painting by Edward Duncan, the view is taken from the eastward. To the right, from the end of the pier, several of the larger class of fishing vessels belonging to the place are perceived lying aground; while, further in the harbour, a merchant brig is seen discharging her cargo. In the foreground, to the left, the attention of a group appears to be engaged by a small ship which a young fisherman holds in his hands. Brixham lies about a mile and a half to the westward of Berry Head, the southern extremity of Torbay, in the county of Devon, and is about twenty-eight miles south of Exeter, and one hundred and ninety-eight west-south-west of London. As a fishing town, Brixham is one of the most considerable in the kingdom. The total number of fishing vessels belonging to the place is nearly two hundred, of which, about one hundred and ten are from thirty to forty tons burden, and the rest from six to eighteen tons. Besides these, there are several yawls and smaller boats which are employed in the fishery near the shore. For years past about seventy of the larger class of fishing vessels have been accustomed to proceed to Ramsgate, for the purpose of catching fish in the North Sea for the supply of the London market. They usually leave Brixham in November and December, and return again towards the latter end of June. The Brixham fishermen send a great quantity of fish to the Exeter, Bath, Plymouth, and Bristol markets. The principal fish which they take are cod, ling, conger-eels, turbot, whitings, hake, soles, skate and plaice, with herring and mackerel in the season. A quantity of whitings are generally salted and dried at Brixham. On the coast of Devonshire dried whitings are called "buckhorn," a name sufficiently expressive of their hardness and insipidity. Besides the vessels employed in the fishery, there are ships belonging to Brixham which are chiefly engaged in the West India, Mediterranean, and coasting trades. A weekly market, with a market-house at the water-side, was established here in 1799, and in 1804 a stone pier of great strength was erected at the expense of the nation. The population of the place is about 5,000. One of the most memorable events in its history is the landing there of William Prince of Orange, afterwards William III., on the 5th of November, 1688. The view of Torbay, from the cliffs above the town, is in the highest degree interesting, especially when enlivened, as it frequently is, by a fleet of fishing-boats dotting its placid waters, and stretching far into the British Channel." So, maybe not "the English" as a body, but the men of Brixham were certainly on their way to the proper 'modern' deepwater sailing fishing vessel through the 18th Century. Through the 19th Century the spread of Brixham men and boats lead to the adoption of the type and technique firstly around the UK through the mid-19th C and then by all NW European major fishing fleets towards the end of the century. The German government ordered 10 Brixham boats to form the kernel of their modern trawling fleet; Sweden, Norway and Denmark all bought large numbers of English trawlers at the end of their useful life of 0 years or so of fishing. I should probably point out that I spent a few formative years working on Brixham-built sailing trawlers, although not fishing them, and may or not be a little biased as to Brixham's claim to be the mother of all deep-sea fisheries or to what a wonderful vessel the fully-realised Brixham trawler became. The yards of Brixham were still building sailing trawlers 'till almost 1930. The place, the largest Medieval fishery, is still one of the biggest fishing ports of the UK, long after most other trawler stations have lost their fleets. I must try to get out more... Baggy
  4. Even bigger shame when one takes into account the hundreds of immeasurably important original sailing vessels that are desperate for funding, either for maintaining their busy schedules or for restoration/rebuilds. Especially given the wonderful work so many do 'sail training' (bit of misnomer really, but the feedback and research both indicate an overwhelmingly positive influence of such trips on those that undertake them), and quite apart from their own worth as vessels, experimental archaeology/'living history' and so on . Sadly, however, there isn't the money, and fundraising for big shiny new projects is always easier that fundraising for maintenance of existing assets, regardless of their value or the value they provide. EDIT: Spent so long tracking down the below that sailing training already got a shout in by the time I hit , apologies. Hey ho, regardless: Grayhound, a revenue/privateersman of 1776: Kerenza, a c.1750 Cornish smuggling lugger in build at the moment in Millbrook, Plymouth: ...okay, so can't post photos from Facebook, so check out her pretty stern here. Alert, a 1835 Cornish smuggling lugger: ...and with the gear uo: Can't wait for luggers, smuggling and the Western Approaches to be in NA one day... Baggy
  5. Vessels lying ahull will not sit head to wind, they will not "present their narrowest aspect". Quite the reverse - they lie beam-on, or even slightly deeper. Hence the rolling. This is true of fin-keeled bermudan sloops, 19th Century long keeled gaffers, 18th Century ships etc. Vessels 'wearthcock' only when there is something aft to blow the stern away from the wind (like the mizzen on a 'modern' ketch or yawl), and so keep the bow up into it. If anyone has sources on whether a spanker was enough for that it'd be interesting to hear. I don't recall, off the top of my head, seeing ships lying to their anchors with the spanker set in period paintings/sketches. In game - let vessels with no canvas lie beam on to the breeze and roll their guts out, should make sniping more difficult However, as warships were used as temporary floating forts it would be nice to have them lie to the wind when anchored, and have the ability to rig an anchor spring to alter how she lies by up to c.180degrees. Time penalties for both processes, of course. Baggy
  6. Mostly, because it's fun Dialect, interestingly, is one of the things that usually get spared. Pronunciation gets a kicking because it makes Yanks sound thick, and Brits smart, so that makes us feel good about ourselves. Spelling gets a kicking because it's 'easier', so same reason as pronunciation, but also because it abandons one of the most important and interesting aspects of English - the root languages from which it stems and continually borrows from. Those words are from other cultures, other pysches, and can be used to pass on very subtly coloured information. There is never any excuse for an Englishman to say anything other than exactly what he means, or wishes to communicate, and all without leaving his native tongue (if his vocabulary is broad, and he can be bothered). We're very lucky for that, and it's irritating for MS Word to tell you that it's wrong. That said, it's been such a fluid thing up until so recently - Shakespeare, bless, couldn't get his own name 'right' two times out of three and he seemed to do okay... Also, because 'herb' has an 'h' in it.
  7. The sails seem to be of a conservative cut, but otherwise I'm not too surprised by that gap. Google images of Rose and you'll see similar, even though they all seem to be taken in no more than a hatful of wind. Unlike the storming pic below: Christian Radich and Stad Amsterdam racing. Well cut canvas, well set, and still that decent gap... Thanks for the continued updates Surcouf, it's great to see Hermione every time Baggy
  8. Was really replying to "fastest emergency stop procedure" That said, there isn't any such thing as 'stopping' at sea . Indeed, the beauty of heaving to is that you are not stopped, that you make a steady, slow, and predictable speed through the water and to leeward. The rudder answers, trim answers, it is no great feat of seamanship to make way again. It's really a very cool practice Sure, a knot or two may as well be staying in place for an hour. what's a mile between friends, but it's crucial to the process (as I'm sure you're aware, but no harm in empahsising it ) that the vessel keeps moving through the water. As for usual practices - I'd happily defer: it's been over five years since I was on a square rigger, longer since a decent sailing passage, and heaving to wasn't a usual practice for us then. I don't remember any particular preparation though. Totally with you on the risks of backing, the frequent desire in battle to maintain a heading and control speed, and that sheet and halyard playtime is how you achieve that control. For me the interesting thing is the apparent value in dumping power (easing halyards) over maintaining control (clewing up). It suggests a pretty permanent deceleration - much harder to re-hoist a yard than to let off bunts and clews and sheet home - but the gents knew what they were about. It also goes to show just how important tops'ls were. which it seems can never be stressed enough. That an easy task for a few men is a solid effort for a group to undo sums sailing up a treat! Won't have a chance to ask anyone for a month or so (due in San Diego, hoping for a chat with the guys on Rose), and it's great to hear some informed options. Baggy ps. It is a pet peeve of mine, this desire for boats to stop. The first day after she launches that a vessel stops moving is the day her keel lies fast aground. Not an avenue to be explored too hurriedly. Dowse all canvas, scandalise, let fly, whatever you want to slow down...but don't ask them to sit like a van in a NO PARKING ACCESS 24HRS spot. It is to miss not just the essence of sailing, but the reason and spirit behind all the other bollocks The day a sailing game can get gamers to acknowledge and support that will be a happy one for me...not least cos I can retire and get my fix without getting cold and wet
  9. Ah, of course, thank you! In my head it's down as 'method to spill wind' but of course that's exactly what scandalising is! Memory blank (though maybe that appeal for correction was old knowledge trying to break through) and failed to put two and two together, ejit. In paintings, I'd assumed a balance of artistic license (looks plenty dramatic, and would have been a common enough sight to those watching harbours) and 'spilling wind option'. Interesting that the consensus seems to have lain in clewed tops'ls but scandalised t'gallants...hmmm... Heave to. Letting fly would be a quick way to loose drive but you've still got all that windage pushing you merrily along. As Matuin says - yes, in short Standing gaffs (as any gaff may as well be with brailing lines rigged) have this massively in their favour, easy to set, easy to furl. Dropping the peak (note by easing out the halyard rather than "just casting off" unless you want the thing crashing on to deck!) is a quick job for one bloke, making it 'easier' than brailing. The pull of the re-hoist however tips the balance well towards brailing. Thank you for the informative, as ever, post Maturin; good to see you around Brigand. Baggy
  10. In my experience, scandalising as a practical technique is a gaff thing. To drop the peak and trice up the tack (either or both) depowers the sail very effectively, very easily (requiring few hands), and very quickly (the sail loses drive quickly, not necessarily the boat stops quickly). It is used to lose speed to make a safe approach to a 'permanent' stop (coming alongside, anchoring), or proceeding at a slow speed (tricing tack only, also has the benefit of drastically improving visibility from the helm - both very useful traits when in confined waters of a dock or river). Having dropped the peak, it requires an awful lot of effort to hoist it again, hence was not to my knowledge or experience done in passing; tricing the tack has a lower average workload, but would still not be done lightly. Scandalising is not used to pause somewhere. For that one would heave to. pi Here you can see lots of cool things, including a scandalised main and mizzen. From back to front: the mizzen has been oversheeted, to bring the head of the vessel up round the end of the pontoon, then well scandalised to depower it; the main has been trimmed, to provide decent power, and is then being scandalised to reduce that power on the final approach; the staysail has been backed to lay her parallel to the pontoon; the jib is still set fair (to keep power on), but is probably about to be let fly. This is a typical use of scandalising - seeing a similar sail set at sea would not be typical at all. On square rig it is also not used at sea (again in my experience, would be happy to stand corrected). To scandalise yards is to hoist one end/lower the other so they do not hang horizontal. Also known as hanging a-cockbill (which itself also has a similar meaning referring to anchors, but that is not helpful here). Used as a sign of mourning, not used to control sail trim. Unless the focus on fore-and-aft rigged craft is increased, sailing physics sharpened further and some sort of mooring/anchoring mini-game type thing created, I cannot see it being worth anyone's time to code or use scandalising in NA...sorry! I would love to see all three of the above, but now might not be the time... Baggy
  11. Confused seas: Before and after a change in wind direction - the waves generated by a storm travel far and wide, and arrive before the wind itself does. Once it has gone those waves will continue in addition to those kicked up by the current breeze. Off the land - up to a few miles offshore it is sometimes possible to detect the presence of a coastline (particularly if rocky and steep) by the waves ricocheting off it. The disturbance of a vessel's regular motion is noticeable. Prevailing wind against tide/current: Not 'confused' per se, but noticeable in the shorter steeper waves created, sometimes at odds with the underlying swell. Both are trademark features of the English Channel, which was talked about a year ago as being the first map. Whilst this seems to have been changed for the Caribbean (pity), hopefully we'll see it one day... Baggy
  12. Is it a nagging question? If it's commerce raiding for profit authorised by a higher power than the captain it's privateering. Next! I honestly don't understand the fascination with adding extra layers to the boxing and labelling of such things, particularly not the bollocks the fascination seems to generate. What vessels did they sail? Any they could, pirate, and any a group of investors thought would make them money (privateer). Drawing from the same pool of vessel types, what a surprise that they should be similar. A privateer, man or vessel, might have been a merchantman and become a whaler. A pirate, man or vessel, might have been a merchantman and become...well...dead. Doesn't matter for definitions - the letter of marque does. Nor does it really matter that there's a fundamental difference between pirates - who have removed themselves from any organisational framework and sail and fight for personal liberties and survival - and privateers - who typically opperated within an amazingly tight framework to make their backers a healthy a return on the investment of fitting out a vessel for a cruise. I say backers because, like commercial shipping, captains did not 'usually' own the vessel they commanded, nor the goods it carried, nor pay for its fitting or maintaining. What matters is the letter. /rant. Baggy
  13. Wow, bold to throw the community such a can of worms - good and interesting move devs Battle module: No place for religion. Not for any 'anti' reason, I just don't see how to get it to fit. Stats boosts/nerfs turn it into a numbers thing, and stop it meaning anything whilst remaining divisive. Morale impact is dubious either way, the modern idea is nice that it would make sailors feel better...but damned if I've ever got a morale boost when sailing with folk of the cloth, or if I've read of it. The poor buggers were superstitious for a reason... Open World: Maybe a place here: a transported missionary may start a successful mission that, if well supported with supplies and protection, may start to convert the local population. This would be bad news for the existing rulers - risk of religious insurrection - but good for your merchants who might get favourable rates... I'd also absolutely love to see it have a 'realistic' impact on the world - not seeing fishing fleets out in the English Channel on Sat/Sun ("It's a sin to be at sea on a Sunday, but sacrilege to shoot a trawl").
  14. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chant_de_marins Haven't got the internet for checking videos to see if they're good versions, but... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkRzCC1Mgso https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1flTOm_57k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXn3ec97yIU Brittany provides some beauties, will try to get hold of some better options in the future. Baggy
  15. Interesting one. Any more context available Destraex ?
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