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Norfolk nChance

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About Norfolk nChance

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    Secretary. Royal Academy of Sciences
  • Birthday 06/25/1969

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    NorfolknChance777@gmail.com

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    Hong Kong SAR
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    [ELITE] The Church of the Poison Mind

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  1. Norfolk nChance

    Staysails vs Mainsail Turning helper

    @DeathBaron The speed guy is @jodgi and would totally agree with him. If turning is what you want, good manual sailing skills first then the books and mods. Be careful and read up on the mod additions mistakes and lost in translation occurs in the descriptions so do your homework. Bow Figure Katherine to start. Then Optimized rudder in combination with STAYSAILs with other mods can be very effective against the wind or through IRONs. Look for a higher positive percentage RHEA number. RHEA is a missed translation for yards. Norfolk.
  2. Norfolk nChance

    Penetration mechanics / thickness & wood types

    oh I hear you on that one. Similar discussion happening on the Q&As bit. a lot of things need testing now and checking against values displayed.
  3. Norfolk nChance

    thickness / penetration details

    perfect when? Can you clip it and send to me please. A Patch note or was he thinking out loud?
  4. Norfolk nChance

    thickness / penetration details

    lol says it all... Anybody tried testing it yet? No? @rediii The thickness is NOT shown to have reduced when taken back into port on the boats template.... The Thickness number on the damaged Mercury remains the same. The wife got a lovely Handbag btw
  5. Norfolk nChance

    Penetration mechanics / thickness & wood types

    http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/20532-framing-and-planking-characteristics-sheet/ Give this a go also look in the guides section for more of this type of stuff. Norfolk.
  6. Norfolk nChance

    thickness / penetration details

    Thickness Peel-Off definitely does not exist...!!! Woke up suddenly middle of the night with the reason or solution to Thickness Peel-Off. Laughing I woke Mrs. nChance to tell her. She said “Norf you’re a dick, and that just cost you a new handbag...” and promptly went back to sleep... “The peel off is once you get a ship past the first 25%-40% Side HP it becomes easier to penetrate at range and harsher angles.” This statement by @Capt Trashal Early we all have felt and know well. This tipping point at 25%-40% damage to the side armor we see this rapid acceleration of increasing damage impacting the enemy. Degrading Thickness rate would seem to make sense, but if fact this number never changes remaining a constant. Two Cerberus’s with [6-9-M]... The broadside uses thirteen class 6, 9-pound medium cannons 13x [6-9-M]. At 250m the penetration value is 76, the damage dealt is 45 points. A successful broadside would deliver 585 damage each time. The Cerberus’s side armor planking Thickness is 57cm with 3,145 Side Armor Hit Points. The Internal Structure Hit Points comes in at 1,573. A combined value of 4,718 points are needed to sink the ship 8.06 broadsides or 105 successful shots. The Penetration Value is about 33% larger than the 57cm Planking Thickness so one would expect 11, 12 or 13 Hits each broadside. First Shot... The Game UI in port would show side armor 3145/3145 Thick 57 at the start. If we delivered one shot on the PORT side it would read 3100/3145 Thick 57. The shot accounts for 1.4% damage to the side armor and a broadside of 585 (2560/3145 Thick 57) is about 18%. Mid-Game... Now let’s look at later in the BATTLE when we’ve worn the armor down by 30%. The template would look like this (2202/3145 Thick 57). One shot at 45dmg now accounts for about 2% of the remaining armor and a broadside of 585dmg 27% of the total armor remaining. This is the “Peel-Off” feel good factor... Every new delivered broadside will impact more percentage damage on the remaining armor. This is why it becomes easier to penetrate the ship further along the battle. We are dealing excessively more damage that in fact keeps accelerating against the remaining armor value. There is no degrading of the thickness rate and this number remains a constant. The value impact however can change from the attacker's angle of fire perspective. A 45-degree fire angle adds 33% to the planks thickness value. Right off to see what damage she’s done to my credit card...
  7. Norfolk nChance

    thickness / penetration details

    EXACTLY.... the Bow is a whole different argument in itself. But yes it should show "exit damage" I agree, a few things here need some proper testing. The STERN is not quite right. This "Hit Box" you mention, like the powder magazine rarely hit but when it is it goes...
  8. Norfolk nChance

    thickness / penetration details

    Peel-Off, does it exist? “The peel off is once you get a ship past the first 25%-40% Side HP it becomes easier to penetrate at range and harsher angles.” I can’t argue with this point. It does become easier to penetrate past the first 25/40%. The Peel-Off theory would make sense. Test 2 Mercury’s collapse one broadside down then PORT. On the defenders ship the PORT UI should show Side Armor: 2069/0 Thick 35 (down from 45). If it doesn’t show a reduced thickness then Peel-Off is something else that gives this effect. https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/923676426116935798/2DA7D3D8656EB38C97D4262825D8FC1F0691A1F0/ Cannonballs hitting the Open STERN Look at @Wraith post above Patch 22. Like he states he thinks @admin is talking post side armor penetration with the kinetic energy to push through to the internal structure. The Ball was delivered with a very high pen value compared to the Thickness. Over Penetration. The STERN has no resistance, its gone so all that kinetic energy or velocity pushes the ball through the ship back to front and out. This might actually cause very little in damage. If the Ball was angle off then impact would be Internal structure, then the side armor and bounce around like you said ending lodged in the rafters somewhere. Nightmare... Damage dealt would be Internal Structure less 50dmg + side armor (random value not 50dmg) + cannons, mod or crew dmg that follows on. At each structural stage the Balls Pen Value must drop significantly to replicate velocity dropping off. So yes, the damage would be spread around so to speak. But the first contact point must bare the brunt of the dmg dealt... Historical What Happened...? We are talking one shot here that’s devasting... How did it happen in real life? I know Victory shot cannonballs through the stern of the Bucentaure killing a third of the crew and taking it out the fight
  9. Norfolk nChance

    thickness / penetration details

    @Capt Trashal Early Me too 3 hours max, not usually this lapsed in concentration but I will take your advice and read questions more carefully in future. Thickness Peel off... If the game mechanic has changed since Christmas then I’ve missed it. Please explain how it occurs? In battle repeated hits on an area whether they penetrate or not eventually where down the thickness number? In the above example from 70 down to 50 as the battle goes on. Yet the other sides (Bow, stern...) un-touched would remain at 70? I like it but a lot of coding. I would assume if “Peel-Off” is there then Yes it would get repaired in the same proportion as the armor health. Good to see mods and such, if there is any reference. Will look through the code tomorrow. Hull Hit Less STERN... Without the old [CTRL]+L its hard to say what is going on. If there is no STERN planking left then the Internal Structure Hit points is all that’s left. I would suggest at this point damage via cannonball becomes heavily nerfed and the shots are a forced “miss” somehow? This won’t show on screen fyi. It needs testing... I never have a problem knocking out STERN planking with cannons. Just dealing damage post. Am sure you’re the same so thinking the nerf starts then. The thing I come back too is game play ability. If the STERN operated how we think it should, the ships become way too weak. Frigates sinking SoLs would be common place. Who knows... Do you agree with this point, that the ships would become way too vulnerable? I don’t think the damage is transferred at all, and its classed as a miss. Interesting topic
  10. Norfolk nChance

    thickness / penetration details

    “does thickness peel off the more you hit a side? if so, does repair restores the thickness?” No, thickness is a fixed number. Imagine it as cm’s so in your example 70 cm would be the thickness of the plank of wood and never changes, well I’ll get that in a second. A Fir wood planks thickness would be a lot less than a Live Oak plank on the same ship. This could differ by easily 20% or more also the Armor number for Fir would also would be considerably less as you’d expect. When you repair the hull, it’s repairing the Armor number, so in your example I used a Cerberus with 3095/3145 for the sides. This is what’s repaired including central structure. Angles... Apologies if sucking eggs... Take a ruler and measure the width of the internal door behind you. Mines 4cm thick. For an object to pass through my door it would need a velocity or penetration value higher than 4cm or it would bounce off. Go back to the door and put the ruler on a 45-degree angle. My door width now measures 6cm in thickness, some 33% thicker. You see where this going... Use Your Example... Now we will turn the defender on 45-degree angle to the attacker. Ball Pen value is 90 the thickness of the defender is 70 straight on. However, at 45 degrees add 33% like in our door example and we get 93.1. This at 3.1 is higher than the ball pen value and bounces... No mods, no tricks massive return on defense. Norfolk
  11. Norfolk nChance

    thickness / penetration details

    @RKY Sorry fella, I had a very late night and miss read the OP. I assume you mean this part... “shooting stern with ball or double, most of the times, deals little to no damage to internal structure. I imagine that in reality damaging frames on either side would cause tremendous damage due to the cheer weight of canons and the shocks caused by shooting. Am I the only one doing no internal damage from the stern?” I find exactly the same thing and players have commented a few times. From either targeting 100m or locked with cannonballs I get very poor results on the move. Yet change to grape and bingo. This definitely is a nerf. Funny how the AI can fire from miles away and still hit the stern with pinpoint accuracy. If it wasn’t nerfed do you think it would be a lot easy to sink boats in the game, thus spoiling it? A Frigate sinks a Santi for instances. Might be why its done this way for game play ability...? “imagine a gun doing 50dmg, with 90 penetration on a perfect shot 70 thickness target. what damage would be caused? 50dmg on side + 50 internal + peel off thickness on the other side?” or 50dmg on side plus peel off other side thickness? or something else?” Balls Pen value of 90 is larger than 70 thickness. Success and 50dmg is dealt to the armor value of that particular area of ship. Cerberus PORT side armor value is 3,145 less 50 now the new value is 3095/3145 (Port/Starboard). The thickness imagine as inches or cm’s (its not) rather than a health value. The 90 Pen value is some 30% larger than the 70-thickness value. In the game at some point the ball will carry on through to the internal structure damaging Cannons or Mods and even passes through the opposite side. At what percentage that is isn’t published but does happen. From my XP after the first 50dmg is dealt to the armor the internal structure dmg and opposite side armor is different, it’s not 50+50+50. Cannons, fire or mod damage also comes into play. This then becomes a few very random calculations indeed. Test a Snow with a Frigate firing 18pd Longs at it from 250m. There will be a percentage over Penetration allowing the ball to do internal damage. In the same context as your OP about NO damage I imagine a too large a percentage figure the ball will fly straight through the ship doing little if any damage... There will be a sweet spot. Below is a 2014 post by @admin showing you what was on his mind and made me get the game. http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/582-naval-action-cannons/ again, sorry for miss reading your post Norfolk.
  12. Norfolk nChance

    thickness / penetration details

    @RKY Other questions... “I have seen entire broadsides on dead side armor deal absolutely no damage to the internal hull or the other side armor without angle.” Unfortunately, I’ve never seen this instance. I’ve done a lot of testing and try to break it down as close to a lab condition as possible using ALTs etc. I really would like see some details to look at. One thing that was quoted an awful lot was the little to no damage stern shots do with a cannonball instead of grape. I’m guessing here but like in World of Warships where the use of armor piercing round on a small ship at close range will just simply pass right through the ship without detonation. Something similar happens here in NA-OW but haven’t studied it. Maybe a high caliber round from a much larger ship fired into a smaller boat? “In most of these cases there was some distance between the ship but the shots were recorded as penetrating.” Again, I’d need to see it. Recorded as penetrating do you mean the top of the screen showing hits or the [CTRL]+L function that used to be in the game? It could register as a hit but pass right through the ship delivering no damage. “Does internal structure have its own thickness? or does internal structure benefit from side armor thickness?” Internal Structure has NO thickness. In NA most things have two meanings and can add confusion at times. The thickness or how strong is the wood planking on the vessel is represented by a BASE value say 50 points or 36 points for the Cutter. The Armor is how strong a particular area of the ship is. So, the sides 900points and the stern is only 90 in our cutters case. Once the planking is penetrated and damage is dealt over time reducing the 900 points to zero. This exposes the internal structure of the ship. At 450 points for the internal structure totally exposed. A cannonball shot doesn’t have the thickness hurdle to breach and will just deal 38 points damages in our [4-M] case. So, 450 – 38 = 412. This means it would take 11.84 shots (or 2 broadsides) to clear the Internal structure and the cutter would sink. “or does internal structure benefit from side armor thickness?” To sink a Cutter from the side at 100m with [4-M] cannons you will need to accurately fire 36 shots or six broadsides. This all balances perfectly, until you try it from the stern or bow. The Stern as a 90-point thickness so at 38 damage our cannonball does that’s 2.36 shots or 3 shots will take out the stern planking. The Internal Structure is 450 so 11.84 shots or 12 shots (2 broadsides). My guess is from the STERN 2.36 + 11.84 = 14.2 shots. If you fire 15 shots it should sink the cutter. Firing just 14 shots accurately it will remain afloat. In practice, my guess is it will take you MORE than 15 shots. That difference is @admin representing the integrity you would get from the internal structure, but only from the stern and bow areas. Spreadsheets in the age of sail... sorry for the length. Hope it helps This is how I understand it, go test it and lets know how you get on... Norfolk.
  13. Norfolk nChance

    thickness / penetration details

    @RKY OK @Wraith points to @admin comments and the idea of the mechanic. I would like to look at it this way from a numbers point of view rather than game play. In the guide I show an example of 2 Cutters with [4-M] cannons, broadside on 100m apart. At the time the broadside thickness was 36 points with Armor of 900 points. We would need to deliver 6 full successful broadsides to take out the planking. Then a further two more to wipe out the internal health... With the stern its just 90 points thickness. So, just 3x shots would wipe out the stern. Leaves the internal structure of 450 so 2x more broadsides or a total of 15 shots at the STERN should sink the cutter. Use an ALT or friend and test it. This is the smallest ship with the weakest guns. If you fire 14 shots it should still be afloat... A guess... I believe it will take more than 15x shoots on the stern or the theoretical amount for the Bow. Proving there is an unmentioned level of protection the internal structure has from Bow and Stern ONLY. @admin won’t answer the question as he likes his Captains to TEST out their theories etc. Let me know how you get on.... Norfolk Just wanted to add... Do the tests and predict the results in NA-OW. Use the template on the build and correct numbers. I believe you will accurately predict the Broadside collapse and Internal structure failure for when the ship sinks. This I have done many times, never noticed your broadside comment though... When it comes to the STERN and Bow however you will under estimate the amount it takes to sink. This is where like Lars suggested bugs where quoted in the past. I agree with @Wraith description that there is an additional “integrity” boost but only on the Bow and Stern areas. Do Cutter, Frigate and 3rd Rates with the same tests. The difference between the under estimate and actual sink value percentage will be the same across all three ships... This will be the Invisible thickness value of the Internal Structures Integrity that @admin replicates in the game. Final Point... In the past I used Mortar Brigs against AI HOSTILITY FLEETS. The technique I used needed the HEALTH STRUCTURE number to be accurate and it was as the cannons drop down onto the deck. There was NO additional thickness protection on the deck. So, just on the stern and bow areas it occurs... Sorry for the length. Great Question though
  14. Norfolk nChance

    thickness / penetration details

    @RKY http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/24680-norfolk-nlegend-does-grinder/ Above is a guide I did for NA-L but even so it explains thickness and penetration see the Ron Jeremy Guide half way down. Its more up to date than my old guide. The internal structure has NO thickness. hope it helps Norfolk
  15. @admin & team It’s a shame, but you understand the business better than I. If I may suggest a view just from an older players perspective. I’ve loved my time on NA-OW and NA-L and will continue to support you and the game. NA-L was mis-understood by most NA players including myself (the reason for the guide). It as a standalone unit was 75% of the way there and was enjoyed by most. However, the final polish to get it ship shape from a tutorial to better scenario content was lacking. Retention is hard to judge from the test as we all play NA-OW as well. This for me was hard to balance the two games and you must take that into account. Managing [ELITE] and NA-L was impossible and needed in the end to focus on one. I’ve played WoWs and although it’s got vastly more resources than GL it has a very small tutorial. Most information comes from player guides and such. They use BASIC YouTube to give regular updates and keep in touch with the player base. At the end of the day its Polished. It works... just look at it... NA-OW, likewise is 75% there but that last push is badly needed. Above game mechanics it does need polish to attract. The models are wonderful but how much more is needed to do? The game needs finishing... I hope NA-L dose make a return, but I’d rather see NA-OW finished properly first... Norfolk nChance [ELITE]
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