Portsdown

I'm putting this up here, in its own thread, as I can't re-find the reply that prompted it. Plus it is, I think, something that is relevant to a number of discussions on the forum. How to split up the loot/exp? I'm a great fan of starting from, and going back to, the historical situation wherever possible. Many of the same problems we see in the game happened historically, or should do if the rules are OK. Obviously this is not the case with all things, to get that we would have to be back in the 19th Century, floating somewhere on the worlds oceans, but its always, IMHO, useful to go back to the sources. So how did the Royal Navy split the loot and encourage the behaviours they wanted? Well first off, they did NOT, as the post that prompted this one suggested, allow the senior officer present to decide, usually with most of the cash etc. going into his pocket. Splitting the loot was subject to the Prize Rules, which were actually controlled by law, and Act of Parliament - junior officers could, and did sue their superiors in court if they felt they had been short changed - Nelson was involved in a long court case with one of his superiors over the division of the spoils from one engagement. The law also applied to Privateers - it was how they made their money. The first thing to note is that any money was split according to shares and that the entire crew (everybody got something) of any vessel in sight of an action got their share. You didn't have to have fired a shot - this was to ensure that ships that, for example, cut off a potential escape route, forcing the enemy into the hands of other ships, weren't short changed. The shares were as follows: 2/8 of the Prize Money was divided evenly between the Captains and other vessel commanders present 1/8 went to the Admiral under whose orders the ship was operating. This encouraged Admirals to give their Captains opportunities to take prizes. If the vessel was acting directly under the orders of the Admiralty in London then this 1/8 was shared by the Captains. 1/8 was shared evenly between all Lieutenants not in command, Sailing Masters and Captains of Marines 1/8 was divided evenly between the Senior Warrant Officers (Surgeons, Chaplains, Pursers, Carpenters, Boatswains, Gunners, Lieutenants of Marines and Masters Mates (the rank above Midshipman - Ensign in the game at the moment)) 1/8 was divided evenly between Junior Warrant Officers, Petty Officers, Warrant Officers Mates, Sergeants of Marines, Captains Clerks and Midshipmen. 1/8 was divided unevenly between everyone else. Able Seamen got two shares, Ordinary Seamen one and a half shares, Landsmen one share and Boys half a share. In game terms this means, if we assume the total 'prize money' seen in the game is the Captains and Admirals 3/8, that the prize money would be shared between all vessel commanders evenly, regardless of rank or what they did in the fight. If one or more is of Flag Rank or someone who has tasked the group is of Flag Rank then the most senior (the one presumed to be in command) should get 1/3 of the total money awarded. Captured ships and their contents were not the property of those who captured them. They belonged to the Admiralty. Captains were able to use them for warlike means if required but they were expected to take or send them as soon as was practical to a port with a Prize Court. The Prize Court would value the ship and its contents, deciding the amount of Prize Money to be awarded. Note that, as I understand it, this was the value as the ship arrived in the port, not the value as captured, so any weather damage or damage by the enemy would lower a prizes value. Theft of what were now Admiralty Stores from a captured ship was a crime. In Pepys time, before the formal introduction of the Prize Rules, an Admiral who had consumed almost all of his victuals and ammunition entered port with his prizes and sold some to pay for more food and powder in order to be able to sail and protect London from the Dutch. He was prosecuted, although politics payed a part in the decision. Note that this is very different from the situation in game at the moment. As well as Prize Money for captures Head Money was awarded - five pounds per person aboard a captured Warship (none for a trading vessel). Other sums were also awarded, for example once Slavery was abolished a sum was awarded for every slave freed and for each ton of a each slave ship captured (more if the ship were empty, in order to partially offset the lack of Head Money for slaves). The money for the capture of slavers is not the only example of sums awarded in order to encourage behaviour the Admiralty deemed desirable. Private shipowners, trade associations and Lloyds would also sometimes make cash awards to captains for protection of trade, recapture of vessels etc. There were also rewards, on top of any Prize Money, for the capture of criminals such as Pirates. These all usually went to the Captain but a wise commander would distribute a proportion to his officers and men, usually in line with the rules set down by the Prize Rules. There were also non-monetary gifts, Lloyds Swords, gifted by the Lloyds Patriotic Fund were famous (and sometime enormously valuable - 100 pounds was a huge amount in those days) and gifts of Plate were relatively common. Other desirable behaviours were rewarded by promotions, or being moved to a more prestigious post or one with more opportunity for Prize Money, at the same rank rather than money or medals. This is how being the first to board an enemy vessel, taking the lead role in a a fight, some clever stratagem or, sometimes a major feat of seamanship that saved the ship (without the presence of the enemy), would be rewarded. After significant actions it was routine to promote the second in command of all vessels by one rank. So maybe split the money for captures evenly but give more experience according to how much Captains contributed to the fight, including to those who actually board, with even more to those who board first?

I am back after a long break. I get the impression that Internal Logins are now active. Is this true and, if so, how do I go about getting one? Regardless of this, perhaps a pinned post or guide could mention this option, plans for it, the fact that it is/is not active etc?

<Off Topic> They nearly got Victory - a bomb exploded in her Dry Dock and damaged her hull. However. given the fate of Implacable, I doubt Wellesley would have survived into the 1950s anyway.

Interesting, since those are, after the ruling in Somersets case, and to my understanding, stricktly illegal. But yes, we are off topic-ish.

Not according to the very well respected historian N A M Rodger and many others. For a start, in the Merchant Service of all nations in America and the West Indies there were Slave Seamen. Free Black Seamen in the Royal Navy show up in the records less from the fact that they weren't there and more from the fact that their colour wasn't though remarkable. The lack of discrimination against them is exemplified by the fact that two white sailors were hung for sodomy at the Nore in 1761 almost entirely on the evidence of a Black seaman - we know that he was black as one of the defendants objected to his evidence because of it and it was recored in the records of the Court Marshal. They were, however, more common in ships serving in the West Indies, where black sailors would transfer from ship to ship as vessels left the area. Slaves served as such in the Royal Navy as well, or rather they were employed by the officers who owned them. Some acted as officers servants but there were also examples like Commodore Douglas in the Leeward Island who manned his privately owned sloops, used to hunt small privateers and pirates in shallow inshore wasters, partly with slave seamen. Whilst still slaves the work would have been less arduous than on the plantations and they were personally valued more, being skilled specialists in short supply. These men were mostly originally free Black and Mulatto Prisoner of War seamen condemned as slaves. The French also condemned men to slavery but put them in Privateers, which the Royal Navy regarded as dangerous from the point of view of encouraging slave rebellions, since discipline was so relatively lax aboard those ships. The use of slaves as servants was usually disguised in some way due to its dubious legality. The Admiralty usually regarded a Royal navy ship as parts of Britain, where British law applied in full. Slavery was never legal in Britain, only in its colonies. Hence the famous statement in the 1751 case Somerset vs Stewart by William Davy, defending the former slave James Somerset against re-enslavement, "this [English] air is too pure for a slave to breathe in". So they would react adversely if they, for example, saw slaves on the lists of personnel returned to them to justify provisioning and pay. General naval opinion among the officers themselves was also against it, even those who themselves might own slaves on the plantations they owned. The way the Admiralty regarded slaves who served as seamen depended on whether they had been Impressed, nominally against their will, or had come aboard willingly and were hence Volunteers. The pressed men would be returned to their owners if they were requested by name and the owners could show their title without doubt, which did happen, but only relatively rarely. However it did protect Volunteers, regardless of if they were escaped slaves or not, including those slaves who escaped from Enemy plantations or the East India Company and those men where the slightest doubt about ownership existed. From my reading I belive that if you were a slave and you could swim out to or otherwise get yourself on board a British Man of War and present yourself as a volunteer there was a good chance that you would spend the rest of your life as a free man. This was especially true if the Captain was short of hands - a usual state. He would have no particular interest in assisting an owner to remove a good man, who had shown initiative, from his ship. He might not do anything 'stricktly' illegal, but he might well 'fail to notice' things that marked you as a slave, 'forget' to notify anyone ashore and assign you duties somewhere out of sight if someone who might care came aboard. There was even the case of John Parker, a Mulatto, and possible former slave, who rose to be a Post Captain, commanding first the Frigate Arab and then the Frigate Tarter towards the end end of a 30 year career spent solely in the West Indies. He retired in 1805. PS: Its important to note that, even in the colonies (the British ones at least), not ALL black men and women were slaves. For a start, how could slaves be given their freedom, attested widely in the historical record, if all those with black skin were automatically slaves? There was a substantial non-white free population in the West Indies. You were only a slave if there were legal documents to say you were.

Thats not an Example, thats a Reference Library.

Animated Figureheads - now there's a thought!

There is a separate topic about crests and badges, their history and rules.

I'm off sick today, so more stuff. ---- First off, I don't regard what I posted as 'politics', its period and legal information. I gave x a 'bye' on the only political point that concerned me. The 'political' point: If you defaced the White Ensign like that in real life there would be a lot of flack directed at you. Its only one step down from defacing the Union Flag and is possibly illegal, both in UK and international law (as Naval Ensigns have a role in Maritime Law). If I saw it in-game I would get seriously grumpy. ---- Secondly, and moving right along, the 'correct' way to display a Coat of Arms is as part of the Figurehead. In some cases this was done by having a relevant figure holding a shield or plaque with the arms upon it. The other way was to show the entire 'Achivement', wrapped round the bow. This is what was done for HMS Victory - her figurehead is the Hapsburg monarchy version of the Royal Arms of England and Wales, as shown below. It might be a nice idea for the devs to add some selectable figureheads to which arms could be added into the game at a later stage. Of course this would have to be subject to the same sort of limitations imposed on names. ---- BTW, as a commissioned warship, HMS Victory has a badge as well as having a figurehead. It does get confusing however, as the RN Barracks in Portsmouth was once also known as HMS Victory and had at least two versions of its own badge, different from that of the ship. The barracks name was later changed to HMS Nelson to avoid confusion. What I understand to be the correct badge is shown below.

By the way, there was an HMS Warren, but as she was a Shore Establishment she didn't have a Badge. HMS Warren was the HQ of the Rear Admiral, Combined Operations Base (Western Approaches) and housed in the Hollywood Hotel in Largs, Ayrshire, Scotland. It existed from 1942 to 1946. It also housed: HQ, Flag Officer Commanding, Overseas Assault Forces (Part of) No 4 Combined Training Centre (or CTC Largs) which provided Combined Operations (Commando and sea landing, including that for D-Day) training for Senior Officers, providing a Short Course for Commanders, Wing Commanders, Lieutenant Colonels or above and a Long Course for Lieutenant Commanders, Squadron Leaders and Majors or above.

Apparently WoT isn't as bad as some out there. <Looks Dubious> <Looks Frightened> A thought: We can all help keep things calm, on top of not posting nasties to chat ourselves, by acknowledging when we make a mistake in chat. A lot of the heat in chat is people venting when people do (what they see as) stupid things that render their ability to influence the battle null and void. Conversely, if you don't think you made a mistake, don't get involved in a two way, just stay quiet. If you feel that you HAVE to say something then try and do it in the way least likely to inflame things. I have still to get round to it but I want 'You say that like its a BAD thing!' on a hot-key in WoT for all the times when someone uses Gay, Polish or some other national or racial designation as an insult. Finally, I get the point about language and the fact that not everybody speaks English it well and it feels like English is spreading the domination of certain countries and you are proud of yours, I really do. BUT if you have found that several players on you team speak your first language and you are giving tactical directions in it please remember that the rest of the team probably doesn't speak it, so don't get all angry when an Englishman like me doesn't heed your instruction or warning in Welsh. Similarly, if you genuinely have a problem with English (in which case, why and how are you reading this) say so at the games start so people can make allowances. ---- Hmm: Suggestion for future tweak to the game (I have made a similar one to the XVM team over on World of Tanks) - how about adding the ability to advertise and see player language skills in some part of the battle interface? It seems pointless if, say, you have a team entirely made up of Germans for them to be chatting away in English for the whole game or have them spend the set up period finding out who speaks what. Allow them to put on their first and other languages on their profiles and others to see them easily.

Small point of order. There is not such thing, at least in British and Irish Heraldry, as a 'Family Crest', at least in the sense that most people understand it, not in the English, Scottish or Irish system. A heraldic 'Crest' is in fact a device placed on top of a Helm, both are part of an Achievement, the central part of which is the Coat of Arms. So, in your first post only the first two Achivements have Crests, Three Feathers, Gold between Blue, then Three White (or rather, Silver) Feathers. Then a key point - an Achievement and the associated Coat of Arms can only ever be held by a person or a corporate body. Disposing of corporate bodies, things like the Arms of County Councils and Cities belong to them corporately. The law (and they ARE laws- using a Coat of Arms that you are not entitled to is a breach of the law) are different from those that apply to personal arms. Counties will often use, unofficially, the Arms of the Duke of the same name. Arms held by persons are passed to the most senior descendant on the death of the current holder. Thus the Royal Arms of England and Wales belong to Her Majesty the Queen only. The Duke of Edinburgh has his own, separate Arms, as does the Prince of Wales. Where the family comes in is that it is traditional for the arms of members of an important family to be variants of those held by the most important members. Thus the principal (he has several, for example those he bears as Duke of Cornwall) arms of the Prince of Wales are The Arms of the United Kingdom differenced by a plain label of three points and an inescutcheon of the Coat of Arms of the Principality of Wales whilst those of the Princess Royal are the Arms of the United Kingdom differenced by a label of three points, the points bearing a red cross, a red heart and a red cross. On the death of HM The Queen the Arms of the United Kingdom will pass to King Charles the Third. All of these arms are awarded personally, DESPITE WHAT CERTAIN FIRMS WHO WANT TO GRAB YOUR CASH AND COME UP FIRST ON GOOGLE SEARCHES SAY, there is nothing for the family in general. The only way to get a Coat of Arms is to inherit it from your parents or to be awarded some honour that entitles you to it. In both cases the transfer or award of arms is controlled by the respective College of Arms or the Office of the Chief Herald of Ireland. ---- OK, now Ships Crests. These do not exist, at least in Britain. What modern Royal Navy ships have are Badges. You can see two in my signature - to the left is that of HMS Invincible, the namesake of my home and to the right that of HMS Grenville, the namesake of the building I work in. The third 'badge' is not that of a ship, it is the badge of the Royal Naval Patrol Service (RNPS), the vessels of which had no individual badge. It represents the 'Hill' Class Admiralty Anti-Submarine Trawler HMT Portsdown. Badges are also controlled by a College of Arms, in this case the English one controlled by the Admiralty Badge Committee, who talk and get permission for certain things from the relevenat Colleges of Arms. That is why the RN can be cheeky and use the arms of Sir Richard Grenville on the badge of HMS Grenville use the arms of Dukes on ships badges - they have specific permission. Badges only came in after our period, once Figureheads had fallen out of use. There was no system, their use was unofficial. This changed in 1918 when the Captain of HMS Tower went to the curator of the Imperial War Museum, Charles ffoulkes, for a new design for his ship. This rapidly led to ffoulkes being assigned to regularise the system and make it official. So, unofficial badges from the 1850s, official ones (many of which mirror the unofficial ones) from 1919. Today most Commonwealth nations keep up the tradition of Badges but those for their ships are controlled by their own Naval and Heraldic authorities. Badges often 'borrow', with permission, the Arms of the people or places they are named after. For example HMS Cornwall bore the Arms of the Duke of Cornwall within its badge. BTW, the badge of HMS Grenville is the pre 1919 unofficial badge used by HMS Revenge, the name of the ship that Sir Richard Grenville commanded when he fought his glorious and fatal action at Flores in 1591. Its heraldic description is: "On a Field Black, a Griffin Gold upon a Cap of Maintenance Proper", HMS Revenge has "On a Field Blue a Gryphon rising out of wavelets Silver." ---- In our period a ship would have no symbol but her Name and her Figurehead. The Figurehead of any theoretical in game HMS Portsdown would be, if I had anything to do with it, be a portrait of a healthy young Hampshire Shepherdess, such as worked the downs at the time, extending her Crook to snare any of the Kings Enemies that might have the temerity to flee from her. I suggest that you might profitably find a period (or non-period) portrait of a Miss or Mrs Warren that delights your eye and base the figurehead of a theoretical HMS Warren on her, in whatever state of dress or undress (very artistic, yer ladies lounging around in states of undress, especially when clinging to Bowsprits) you should desire. Edited to correct and clarify. Edits in Red. Additions in Blue

I take it you are referring to Scantlings Sir. You are indeed correct, I thought it unnecessary to mention such a well known detail. For shame! Such lack of Nauticality! Officers today, mere Theorising Landsmen! One would think that you had never been to sea, never stood a watch in a true North Atlantic blow! <Leaves the Quarter Deck muttering about the wreck of the service and the wearing of Round Hats>

After much searching. A man bringing up his hammock for stowing: Later, a man with his rolled hammock, as if ready for stowing (left bag) A model showing one idea of how they looked. Some ships used canvas rather than nets but I think there was an upper cover that protected the hammocks from the weather and would have hidden their indevidual detail. A model with a set of full nets, closer to how I understand they looked.