Jump to content
Game-Labs Forum

The Lineship 'Problem'


Recommended Posts

As with every patch everybody is grinding for Lineships. As I understood it this patch was supposed to lower the lineship presence. Now setting aside my take on the lineship presence in the first place ( @Snoopy has presented the numbers more then once) I think the current take/solution is heavily flawed and will change absolutely nothing except introducing grind pain into the game. There are several resons for this:

  1. Lineships are able to tag everything while being the best protection against attacks as well (not counting speed (which has been capped)).
  2. Lineships are required for most of the ports or provide a massive advantage as screening ships.
  3. Lineships vs an unprepared nations ships are pratically undefeatable in any kind of meaningful combat (they are probably not traveling alone). This can easily be seen in Spain vs Brits where the few Agas wont even try to leave port against the Ocean fleet.(this is no whine - it is however a fact)
  4. Lineships remain the best money grinders when it comes to PvE combat which in the current economy is a near must have.

These things result in every nerf of the ships or increase of grind merely delaying the arrival of those ships. The losses even when extreme are still being ignored as in the end the need and gain is too extreme to disregard. Currently every single nation is grinding money, mats and marks for the lone purpose of getting a lineship fleet up and running.

Possible solutions:

  1. To reduce the RvR importance of SOLs the amount of 1st Rate ports needs to be heavily cut. It is no surprise that every nation yearns for 1st Rates if every second port is a 1st Rate port. I'd suggest a lot of these ports to be replaced by 4th rate ports and maybe introduce a new 5th rate port as well. These should be the main activity.  This is probably the biggest problem and the main reason nothing changes about SOLs.
  2. There needs to be a downward tagging limit as to decrease the effectiveness of SOLs in screening activities. I am not sure as to the possibilities here but the simplest choice would be SOLs can only tag other SOLs (join rules on other battles and counter attacks would be a problem here hence why I am unsure).
  3. This would fix the same meaning a lineship fleet wouldn't immediately create such a heavy imbalance.
  4. I genuinely think there still needs to be a reason to take out SOLs so PvE should remain untouched. However loading traders with decent goods mroe reliably and therefore making the fast boarders more useful would surely help to balance this a bit.

Using my or other people's solutions would lead to a decrease in SOLs in RVR (quite heavily) and a light icnrease of SOLs on the open world while still keeping them playable for thsoe that enjoy them.

As it stands no grind will fix the SOL problem as in the end they are not optional.

Feel free to add other possible solutions (not taking line ships out - me and others like playing them^^) down below or post your take on this. Please remember to keep the discussion easy and light hearted.

Cheers

Jolly/Salty

Edited by JollyRoger1516
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, JollyRoger1516 said:

As with every patch everybody is grinding for Lineships. As I understood it this patch was supposed to lower the lineship presence. Now setting aside my take on the lineship presence in the first place ( @Snoopy has presented the numbers more then once) I think the current take/solution is heavily flawed and will change absolutely nothing except introducing grind pain into the game. There are several resons for this:

  1. Lineships are able to tag everything while being the best protection against attacks as well (not counting speed (which has been capped)).
  2. Lineships are required for most of the ports or provide a massive advantage as screening ships.
  3. Lineships vs an unprepared nations ships are pratically undefeatable in any kind of meaningful combat (they are probably not traveling alone). This can easily be seen in Spain vs Brits where the few Agas wont even try to leave port against the Ocean fleet.(this is no whine - it is however a fact)
  4. Lineships remain the best money grinders when it comes to PvE combat which in the current economy is a near must have.

These things result in every nerf of the ships or increase of grind merely delaying the arrival of those ships. The losses even when extreme are still being ignored as in the end the need and gain is too extreme to disregard. Currently every single nation is grinding money, mats and marks for the lone purpose of getting a lineship fleet up and running.

Possible solutions:

  1. To reduce the RvR importance of SOLs the amount of 1st Rate ports needs to be heavily cut. It is no surprise that every nation yearns for 1st Rates if every second port is a 1st Rate port. I'd suggest a lot of these ports to be replaced by 4th rate ports and maybe introduce a new 5th rate port as well. These should be the main activity.  This is probably the biggest problem and the main reason nothing changes about SOLs.
  2. There needs to be a downward tagging limit as to decrease the effectiveness of SOLs in screening activities. I am not sure as to the possibilities here but the simplest choice would be SOLs can only tag other SOLs (join rules on other battles and counter attacks would be a problem here hence why I am unsure).
  3. This would fix the same meaning a lineship fleet wouldn't immediately create such a heavy imbalance.
  4. I genuinely think there still needs to be a reason to take out SOLs so PvE should remain untouched. However loading traders with decent goods mroe reliably and therefore making the fast boarders more useful would surely help to balance this a bit.

Using my or other people's solutions would lead to a decrease in SOLs in RVR (quite heavily) and a light icnrease of SOLs on the open world while still keeping them playable for thsoe that enjoy them.

As it stands no grind will fix the SOL problem as in the end they are not optional.

Feel free to add other possible solutions (not taking line ships out - me and others like playing them^^) down below or post your take on this. Please remember to keep the discussion easy and light hearted.

Cheers

Jolly/Salty

 

There is also the Problem that with the % you get from Mods you can make Lineships fast and with that more useful in OW exspecially with the 15kn cap.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The British have already proven that lineships are weak against cheap throw away fire ships... 

The British also showed that the age of lineships is every limited to Dare I say port battles only

Edited by monk33y
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't agree with your analysis.  SOLs have been used in exactly one contested PB in PvP EU and that was at Cartagena and they were 3rd rates and both sides had them (yet there was no real fighting).  They were used one to raise hostility near Omoa and were countered by Basic Cutters and were used to screen the Pirate attack on Georgetown and were countered by frigates and constitutions.  From the little we've seen I'd say they're not as OP as  you say they are. 

You're right, everyone is grinding like mad to get a 1st rate PB fleet.  However maintaining a 1st Rate PB after multiple battles and sailing the replacement ships from where they are crafted to the front lines is a going to be a huge logistical challenge.  I don't want to make predictions, I would like to see how this plays out in a long war spread over a good chunk of the map because from what I've seen SOLs are not a silver bullet for any nation. They're obviously extremely valuable but at the moment the major advantages of SOLs has really only been psychological.

 

In short, I don't think there's a Lineship problem but I would like to wait and see how RvR works after the patch before changing things.

Edited by Senhor Lenhador
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You have to look at both sides of the coin. First rates are quite expensive, but PB ships also dont sink currently.

Our nation had maybe 1 PB each 3 days, not a single one was defended, not a single ship was lost in the PB itself. Only when you loose so many PB ships, that it becomes too inefficient to keep up a first rate production, 3rd and second rates would be produced. People just got all time to build an aga fleet, and a first rate fleet afterwards.

 

43 minutes ago, JollyRoger1516 said:
  • To reduce the RvR importance of SOLs the amount of 1st Rate ports needs to be heavily cut. It is no surprise that every nation yearns for 1st Rates if every second port is a 1st Rate port. I'd suggest a lot of these ports to be replaced by 4th rate ports and maybe introduce a new 5th rate port as well. These should be the main activity.  This is probably the biggest problem and the main reason nothing changes about SOLs.
  • There needs to be a downward tagging limit as to decrease the effectiveness of SOLs in screening activities. I am not sure as to the possibilities here but the simplest choice would be SOLs can only tag other SOLs (join rules on other battles and counter attacks would be a problem here hence why I am unsure).
  • This would fix the same meaning a lineship fleet wouldn't immediately create such a heavy imbalance.
  • I genuinely think there still needs to be a reason to take out SOLs so PvE should remain untouched. However loading traders with decent goods mroe reliably and therefore making the fast boarders more useful would surely help to balance this a bit.

All those artificial restrictions will never be a good solution. Even the devision between 4th rate and 1st rate battles was supposed to be only temporary (to test 4th rates) and should be removed again. 

Suggestion:

  • Improve hostility/use another PB system, to increase the amount of PBs happening.
  • Remove 4th rate PBs, so more 1st rates are used and lost.
  • Maybe change the three circles, and make it the major goal again to destroy the enemy fleet or port defenses.
  • When the PB frequency stays low, firstrates need to be even more expensive. When PBs allowing first rates happen only once a week, then a firstrate might need to consume a week of labour. Cost needs to be balanced after losses to keep those ships special and rare.
  • If possible make loosing a port, or RvR in general more meaningful, so nations have better reasons especially to defend.

With an ROE that results in a battle after an ow attack happens, we wouldnt even need strict BR limitations. Some 4th rates attacking a first rate fleet would just result in the loss of those 4th rates. On the other side a larger screening fleet would be able to take down a few firstrates, to send in a few fire ships or to delay the fight long enough. -> More defense opportunities for nations with less powerful fleets. Repairs are limited, especially on the ow, so even damaging the enemy fleet means something.

2 hours ago, JollyRoger1516 said:

Lineships remain the best money grinders when it comes to PvE combat which in the current economy is a near must have.

Agree. Line ships should have high upkeep cost, to make grinding PVE not that much more profitable than it probably is. I think repair cost is the only possible variable, and it could increase massively for those ships. When you earn 200k per fleet loosing half your hull, 100k to repair in the harbour, 120k to repair with hullrepairs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A Total BR limit for a Port Battle will make the opposing parties think what ships they should bring. For example a BR of lets say 3000. You can decie to bring fewer heavy ships, a fleet of light ships ot a mixed fleet. More diversity, more tactics.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Ruthless4u said:

I know I have very little intrest in SOL's

Likewise. 

I have made what I want to sail in, until one of two ships come back to the game... Either the Xebec, or the Rattlesnake return.  

Until that happens I will continue to use my Lynx and Privateer.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem right now is that everyone is making them but nobody is using them.

Get one good, real showdown between some lineships, with some actual sinking going on, and the tears will flow again.

PvP wolfpacks could also be bagging a whole lot of traders and even the occasional lineship if they risked it and figured out where to go.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Maybe we could make a kind of  flagship system limiting the top class accepted on deepwater harbour to 5 per side of each port battle. I think this would be more interesting and dynamic than the well known 25 agga vs 25 same agga, or 25 ocean vs 25 ocean.

Lineship battles would accept 5 first rate ships max, actual 4th rate pb would accept 5 third rate maybe, you could even add a frigate level PB with five 4th rate. 

I know people don't want the game to limit them in what they can play but lets be honest, it already do with the 4th rate battles. And nations rush build 25 agga then 25 ocean, making 2nd & 3rd rate nearly useless.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Honestly you guys are all individuals who aren't into lineships. Every single nation is working on them whether they actually have players who enjoy them or not. There is no denying that. As long as so many Lineship ports exist Lineships will continue to be built no matter the grind or the joy.

The Spanish jsut didn't have a clue how to deal with fireships. Good first rate fleets can deal with them quite well - just look at the hudnreds of port battles where fireships barely managed to disturbe the formation but didn't actually do any significant dmg.

@Gizbo I ain't crying. I love SOLs and in my mind there could be hundreds around but thats not what people want so I am thinking of ways to actually make them rare.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2017. 06. 23. at 9:17 AM, JollyRoger1516 said:

Honestly you guys are all individuals who aren't into lineships. Every single nation is working on them whether they actually have players who enjoy them or not. There is no denying that. As long as so many Lineship ports exist Lineships will continue to be built no matter the grind or the joy.

The Spanish jsut didn't have a clue how to deal with fireships. Good first rate fleets can deal with them quite well - just look at the hudnreds of port battles where fireships barely managed to disturbe the formation but didn't actually do any significant dmg.

@Gizbo I ain't crying. I love SOLs and in my mind there could be hundreds around but thats not what people want so I am thinking of ways to actually make them rare.

I love SOLs as well and i love frigates as well but i dont think  SOLs was a problem. I think it was made by players whos love frigates and please dont throw in "the realistic card" because we are making peopels from rum...XD(at least we should call bandage:))

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Cimbi said:

I love SOLs as well and i love frigates as well but i dont think  SOLs was a problem. I think it was made by players whos love frigates and please dont throw in "the realistic card" because we are making peopels from rum...XD(at least we should call bandage:))

Snoopy already put up the numbers of 3rd rates nearly equalling 5th rates at that time. The only reason they were mostly in Europe was due to the blockades otehrwise there wouldve been more in teh Carribbean but yeah people with frigates bitched enough to get this pushed. My point is that the current iteration is still not gonna 'fix the problem'.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, JollyRoger1516 said:

Snoopy already put up the numbers of 3rd rates nearly equalling 5th rates at that time. The only reason they were mostly in Europe was due to the blockades otehrwise there wouldve been more in teh Carribbean but yeah people with frigates bitched enough to get this pushed. My point is that the current iteration is still not gonna 'fix the problem'.

 Devs cant fix this problem because the problem not "the sols". Real problem is the players.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A few things are wrong:

1. lineships are not best for grinding PvE. 1st rates give you the same amount of gold as 4th rate for sinking. As it is, Endymion or Aga are the best for grinding now.

2. lineships are not best for screening, as they're slow and extremely expensive

3. lineships that mean a lot for everyone are great, it adds epicness to the game. Long time ago sinking enemy fleet was more important than getting a port. Now we're getting back to this. It gives a lot of depth to the game, and multiple new strategies are available. We had huge naval battles over eg. someone capturing Bucentaur in OW.

4. I never saw 1st rates being used for PvP, they were only for RvR even when they were as cheap that everyone could afford them.

5. many people don't like sailing lineships, as you can see in this thread. I for one don't need one as well, I prefer 4'th rates or lower.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/22/2017 at 9:27 AM, Slamz said:

The problem right now is that everyone is making them but nobody is using them.

Get one good, real showdown between some lineships, with some actual sinking going on, and the tears will flow again.

PvP wolfpacks could also be bagging a whole lot of traders and even the occasional lineship if they risked it and figured out where to go.

We lost a L'ocean last week cause of a bunch of Surprises jumped into a fleet mission he was doing with a santi.  We warned them not to out solo doing those fleets like that.  The AI actually sunk the ship but still the point is it's not safe.  This is how we use to capture so many 1st rates from the US back on PvP2 cause they would be out solo grinding fleets or there escorts will run to rush into the port battle and leave the slow expensive ships behind.

As for BR limits that wil only work for a loby system as to who do you pick gets to go in the fight?  We don't want a lobby system.  You can save that for the Arena game.  Though I can see something being used on raids.  You make a party of 12 and you have a BR limit.  You can't activate the raid flag unless you have under that raid type BR in group.  Than you can go make the raid.  This would be the only way on the NPC style raids Devs talk about seeing a raid system work, but we don't want that limit.  Instead you limit the highest BR each player can bring for a total BR maybe.  Just like we have the shallow, 4th rates and lineship restrictions for them now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...