PVP/PVE or Combat Marks currency done properly

[Koltes]

I'm not too happy with the Combat Marks distribution and I saw that quite a few active PVPers are not too happy either.

It eliminates the difference between PVE and PVP player, therefore promoting carebear gameplay. Why risk your ship if you can grind PVE fleet missions and get same rewards/items for Combat Marks?
There are couple of issues with PVP marks that needed to be addressed, which are Alt farming and trading/exchange.


THE PROPOSAL - New Combat Currency

PVE Marks replaced by White Pearls currency that is tradeable. Earned by killing AI ships of any kind including player's fleet.

White Pearls are used to buy upgrades, refits, materials, books etc.
(!) Because they can be traded between players or sold in shops White Pearls also become part of the Naval Action economy serving as a medium of exchange that helps to reduce the inflation. Thus also allowing Combat oriented players to participate in the economy.
Now when we have ship tree grind per-requisites removed (which is an awesome move) white pearls can also be part of cost of unlocking slots. For example on top of the XP the 3rd and 4th slots will also have White Pearls price so PVP oriented players will have to engage in trading with PVE players or some level of PVE activity.

 

PVP Marks replaced by Black Pearl currency that is NOT tradeable.

Black Pearls are used to unlock some bonuses, such as last upgrade slot on the ship. Because Black Pearls can't be traded this will be player's own achievement.
What you unlock for Black Pearls can be anything that the community feels fair to be unlocked for individual PVP achievements that will make player recognized for unlocking / getting those achievements. Could be permits on some ships like Pirate Frigate. Black Pearls could replace rare drops for Elite Refits. Now those Elite refits will be earned by playing the game rather than earned by a slim chance making those refits owned by few. Heck, even specific ship paints can be unlocked by Black Pearls making this a recognizable achievement.
I'm sure the community will have even better ideas, but you get the drift.

Black Pearl Alt farming to be addressed by making 48 hours timer on getting Black Pearls out of killing the same player. Leave 1 hours timer for getting the other rewards like it is now, but make Black Pearls 48 hours so there is no abuse of alt farming.

Note: for PVE server any PVP currency makes no sense and the cost of unlocks should be replaced by higher cost of White Pearls

Edited June 22, 2017 by koltes

[King of Crowns]

idea works...... @admin your pvp crowd is by far your most dedicated players we don't need much incentive to play the game. but we do want some sort of reward for playing the game with most risks possible. pre wipe it didn't take a very big effort to pvp.. with the changes to free port teleportation pvp is now a full day long commitment. all of the RVR and PVE crowd say well you pvp for the sake of pvp but if I were to use that same argument about their RVR or PVE they would be saying the same thing as me. for example if you received nothing for going out and killing AI.......then no one would kill the AI. if you received nothing for completing port battles then no one would set or fight port battles.

Basic point:  you have 3 types of players in your game.

PVP: the competitive group of gamers within naval action who like the challenge and are willing to risk their ship to sink others. (and hopefully have some sort of reward to make it worth while, as of this morning we don't)

PVE: the more relaxed group of players that really enjoy the economy side of the game. They are happy gathering the materials and money needed to suit their needs or their clans needs. (these guys are satisfied by their money/ships/goods in warehouse)

RVR: The group of players within naval action that like the politics of the game and the command structures needed to set and win a port battle. (currently for the purpose of conquest marks and recognition on the server as part of  the nation.) 

The current system you had was working to keep all 3 of these types of players satisfied. PVP players could sale their marks for money or conquest marks thus satisfying the need for money and new ships as some will be lost. PVE players could acquire the pvp marks with money. RVR players could acquire the pvp marks by trading with the PVPers. you had an entire economy set up around marks that was destroyed this morning. did the system need some adjustments? sure. but you guys once again just threw the whole thing out the window and said screw it. same with almost every content piece you have tried to add tot he open world since the fine woods patch.

Edited June 22, 2017 by King of Crowns

[monk33y]

It's an interesting idea! I think everything should be tradeable tho. 

I dont see how any new concept could restrict a player from making money in there own way.

Selling marks/pearls should be allowed.

What we need is a better exchange rate mechanics, the better you are at pvp, the higher exchange rates received 

[King of Crowns]

13 minutes ago, monk33y said:

It's an interesting idea! I think everything should be tradeable tho. 

I dont see how any new concept could restrict a player from making money in there own way.

Selling marks/pearls should be allowed.

What we need is a better exchange rate mechanics, the better you are at pvp, the higher exchange rates received 

an exchange rate would have been fine. that's what everyone said. exchange is fine 50pve:1 PV. but they destroyed pvp marks and with it reason to pvp.

Edited June 22, 2017 by King of Crowns

[King of Crowns]

@admin could we at least be given the explanation for such a radical move. the test server had these mechanics for months. and less than a month after the wipe this mechanic is totally destroyed. can we at least hear the reason for the change?

[codyproxy]

Frankly i don't think that you want to restrict items to only PVP-ers. Everything should be archievable (at least in terms of costs) by doing PVE/Missions/Trading.

I don't have a problem with getting more for PVP (in terms of exchange), as long as people who aren't PVP-ing every night can also get all stuff in the game.

[King of Crowns]

3 minutes ago, codyproxy said:

Frankly i don't think that you want to restrict items to only PVP-ers. Everything should be archievable (at least in terms of costs) by doing PVE/Missions/Trading.

I don't have a problem with getting more for PVP (in terms of exchange), as long as people who aren't PVP-ing every night can also get all stuff in the game.

but why is this okay for conquest mark people and not pvp mark people. I cant get a line ship unless I go to a port battle. and to be honest you could have gotten these in game easily. if your out pvping your not making a lot of money. in fact you can easily loose money. so you can buy the pvp marks from the pvpers with the gold you were making through pve

Edited June 22, 2017 by King of Crowns

[King of Crowns]

previous to todays patch I was trading PVP marks for conquest marks in order to get the line ship permits. but as you can imagine that trade is now gone.

[monk33y]

It's a shame that any trader doesn't get the ability to purchase a market in there capital.

A market doesn't grant any goods itself but instead buffs the goods received for trading.

Tier 1 market (cost 10k) Gives 5% trading bonus.

Tier 2 market (costs 200k) Gives 15% trading bonus.

Tier 3 market (costs 900k) Gives 40% trading bonus.

The bonuses would provide better rewards for trading. Any two markets at tier 3 would give an extra 10% reward.

 

[Landomatic]

1 hour ago, codyproxy said:

Frankly i don't think that you want to restrict items to only PVP-ers. Everything should be archievable (at least in terms of costs) by doing PVE/Missions/Trading.

I don't have a problem with getting more for PVP (in terms of exchange), as long as people who aren't PVP-ing every night can also get all stuff in the game.

Please don't digest this comment as being a troll as it's not my intention to suggest people leave their friends and clanmates, but,If you want to PVE Mission & trade you could just play on the PVE server.  You need to incent people to have open world engagements.  If you're a PVEer on a PVP server and support PVPers in your clan, have them provide PVP acquired resources to the PVEers that support them.  Given the low server pop, ridiculous amount of alts in the game, and time it takes to deploy forces to PVP you should absolutely make PVP marks more valuable as they're tremendously more challenging to come by.  Additionally, rewards for those 2 aspects for the game should be kept separate.  If you're not a PVP player, or can't PVP every night, you can also trade for PVP marks from people who do have time, or are more acclimated to those types of engagements.  Everything seems tradable.

Before it gets to that point, I don't believe anyone is saying one aspect of the game is better than the other.  Just one seems more scarce and requires greater effort to come by.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Landomatic
mechanics

[JJWolf]

50 minutes ago, Landomatic said:

Please don't digest this comment as being a troll as it's not my intention to suggest people leave their friends and clanmates, but,If you want to PVE Mission & trade you could just play on the PVE server.  You need to incent people to have open world engagements.  If you're a PVEer on a PVP server and support PVPers in your clan, have them provide PVP acquired resources to the PVEers that support them.  Given the low server pop, ridiculous amount of alts in the game, and time it takes to deploy forces to PVP you should absolutely make PVP marks more valuable as they're tremendously more challenging to come by.  Additionally, rewards for those 2 aspects for the game should be kept separate.  If you're not a PVP player, or can't PVP every night, you can also trade your PVE marks to people who do have time, or are more acclimated to those types of engagements.  Everything seems tradable.

Before it gets to that point, I don't believe anyone is saying one aspect of the game is better than the other.  Just one seems more scarce and requires greater effort to come by.

This reads near identical to the OP and I see a major flaw in this logic.

This attitude of "PvP must be special" is a bunch of male cow manure. If one is only intent on combat then Legends sounds like the game. The current setup of marks allows PvP players and to a lesser extent PvE to earn rewards through respective ways of playing. Without the PvE players on the PvP servers (i.e: Traders, Crafters, and Shipwrights) your entire server economy will collapse with it's current implementation. Instead of a free market, the mid/late game will become exclusively for clan play only and discourage new combat orientated players from getting beyond their starting cutter. As it stands it's already in trouble. When playing as a nation, the part people forget is that as a nation you are a team of teams.

In actual fact, I despise the current restriction of needing 'Conquest/Combat Marks' for BPs, Permits, and Books (crafters/shipwright items). It should be purchasable with gold. Why? Because the player-base who is most likely to craft the majority of the upgrades and ships are the same players who prefer to spend the endless hours it takes for large scale trading and crafting, not PvPing. Forcing those players out to PvPing or mission grinding is the same as forcing all PvPers from promoting each rank until they have made the X number of millions of gold in profit from trade runs and crafted Y number of ships as a prerequisite.

Edited June 22, 2017 by JJWolf

[Landomatic]

2 minutes ago, JJWolf said:

This reads near identical to the OP and I see a major flaw in this logic.

This attitude of "PvP must be special" is a bunch of male cow manure. If one is only intent on combat then Legends sounds like the game. The current setup allows PvP players and to a lesser extent PvE to earn rewards through respective ways of playing. Without the PvE players on the PvP servers (i.e: Traders, Crafters, and Shipwrights) your entire server economy will collapse. Instead of a free market, the mid/late game will become exclusively for clan play only and discourage new combat orientated players from getting beyond their starting cutter. As it stands it's already in trouble.

In actual fact, I despise the current restriction of needing 'Conquest/Combat Marks' for BPs, Permits, and Books (crafters/shipwright items). It should be purchasable with gold. Why? Because the player-base who is most likely to craft the majority of the upgrades and ships are the same players who prefer to spend the endless hours it takes for large scale trading and crafting, not PvPing. Forcing those players out to PvPing or mission grinding is the same as forcing all PvPers from promoting each rank until they have made the X number of millions of gold in profit from trade runs and crafted Y number of ships as a prerequisite.

Flaw in logic eh?

PVP isn't 'special,' it's just a different aspect to the game.  PVP in this game, like some others, is usually about a risk vs. reward calculation.  PVE and trade generally yields far less risk and as such has very definitive, safe and calculable rewards.  Most arguably, the rewards for those PVE elements to the game are about how much time you put in, not usually about the risk those endeavors pose.

No one said that PVE players (i.e: Traders, Crafters, and Shipwrights) on pvp servers aren't valuable.  Your demonstrable undercurrent that PVP players need PVE players is also represented by the inverse.  PVP players are for more likely to lose vessels and use consumables at a much higher rate than your average PVE player.  So, what happens to these economies when PVP players leave and aren't satisfied with the value of PVP?  Simple, they play other PVP games. Meanwhile in this game that would cause the supply (of ships, consumables, marks, etc,) to completely overtake demand which ALSO crashes entire server economies.  Thusly, having a similar result,  Or, it would require PVP players to engage in those PVE tasks at an increased rate as well. Which ALSO removes more PVP players from engagement opportunities.  Which also causes a similar effect on economies and populations.

 

Keep the rewards different based on the availability of their appropriate supply of risk and engagement potential/opportunities; not gold.  Gold, is very very very easy to come by; despite our beloved developers creations of money sinks.

 

PS:  How many times can I use the word ALSO?

[Grundgemunkey]

4 hours ago, King of Crowns said:

idea works...... @admin your pvp crowd is by far your most dedicated players we don't need much incentive to play the game. but we do want some sort of reward for playing the game with most risks possible. pre wipe it didn't take a very big effort to pvp.. with the changes to free port teleportation pvp is now a full day long commitment. all of the RVR and PVE crowd say well you pvp for the sake of pvp but if I were to use that same argument about their RVR or PVE they would be saying the same thing as me. for example if you received nothing for going out and killing AI.......then no one would kill the AI. if you received nothing for completing port battles then no one would set or fight port battles.

Basic point:  you have 3 types of players in your game.

PVP: the competitive group of gamers within naval action who like the challenge and are willing to risk their ship to sink others. (and hopefully have some sort of reward to make it worth while, as of this morning we don't)

PVE: the more relaxed group of players that really enjoy the economy side of the game. They are happy gathering the materials and money needed to suit their needs or their clans needs. (these guys are satisfied by their money/ships/goods in warehouse)

RVR: The group of players within naval action that like the politics of the game and the command structures needed to set and win a port battle. (currently for the purpose of conquest marks and recognition on the server as part of  the nation.) 

The current system you had was working to keep all 3 of these types of players satisfied. PVP players could sale their marks for money or conquest marks thus satisfying the need for money and new ships as some will be lost. PVE players could acquire the pvp marks with money. RVR players could acquire the pvp marks by trading with the PVPers. you had an entire economy set up around marks that was destroyed this morning. did the system need some adjustments? sure. but you guys once again just threw the whole thing out the window and said screw it. same with almost every content piece you have tried to add tot he open world since the fine woods patch.

I disagree with most of this post

mainly because you missed out the largest proportion of NA captains ...those that lIke to do  some  PVP some PVE and some RVR

but lets take your notion of three distinct groups

PVP ... the competitive group of gamers within naval action who like the challenge etc etc .....this is the group that will abandon this game when the ARENA game is launched they have no interest in grinding or trading just want a pvp encounter ..so why make special bonus for them in this game

PVE.....your assesment that they are just having money/ goods ..is far from been correct ... these guys are probably the ones that the ship knowledge tree loss effects the most they enjoy the grind and get satifaction from opening every slot having every upgrade / book etc ..to deny cerain parts of the game because they dont pvp ..will turn them off

RVR.. I dont think there is such a thing as a pure RVR player

personally i like all 3 and spread my game time between all 3

while the new system isnt perfect . it is better than the old one that just made pvp farming with alts attractive ,,someone with the name  Ann Boney or bonny was selling 40 pvp marks in kpr 3-4 days after the wipe  you think that they were obtained without farming ,,you dont think the black pearl idea would just lead to the same thing

..i would like to see a greater differential between a pvp kill and a pve kill .. .. currently i can do a master & commander mission and sink 4-5 ships easily ,,and get more combat marks than 1 pvp kill which should be harder and riskier ..

[BallsOfSteel]

PVP MARKS FOR FIGHTING COMBAT SHIPS ONLY. COMBAT MARKS FOR FIGHTING ALL.

Stops the gankers and gives all a a pvp fight for the marks that count not like some who just go after traders.

[Vizzini]

From a PVP servers perspective, surely there should be more reward and incentive for people to pvp

 

[King of Crowns]

13 minutes ago, Grundgemunkey said:

 

PVP ... the competitive group of gamers within naval action who like the challenge etc etc .....this is the group that will abandon this game when the ARENA game is launched they have no interest in grinding or trading just want a pvp encounter ..so why make special bonus for them in this game

 

Ya know I really hope that this is NOT the reasoning of the devs. I would really like to know so I hope @admin or @Ink will tell us why they made the sudden change. Surely you can see your bias towards your own tendencies in this post. you just said "why make a special bonus for them in this game". so you want an open world with only RVR and PVE no hunters, no killers. just this pretty lil world where everyone can sail there ship without fear of being killed. Unless of course its a port battle. and if you are right and the devs are taking this approach towards hunting/pvp then that's their choice just let me know so I can uninstall.

Edited June 22, 2017 by King of Crowns

[Landomatic]

I don't know why this is hard to grasp.  In most avenues of gaming, much less real life, things harder to obtain either based on scarcity, rarity, or challenge are worth more than those things that are not.  Server pops are low and a much needed server merge that needed to happen, hasn't.  PVP marks are much much harder to come by now for myriad reasons.  This should make them more valuable.  Not because one type of player or game play style is better or more or less favourable than another.

 

I'm not sure why or how this doesn't make sense from simple supply and demand, risk vs. reward 'logic.'

Edited June 22, 2017 by Landomatic

[King of Crowns]

47 minutes ago, BallsOfSteel said:

PVP MARKS FOR FIGHTING COMBAT SHIPS ONLY. COMBAT MARKS FOR FIGHTING ALL.

Stops the gankers and gives all a a pvp fight for the marks that count not like some who just go after traders.

so why not just make traders invulnerable? so that they cant be hurt at all? sounds like a pretty world with unicorns to me.

Edited June 22, 2017 by King of Crowns

[BallsOfSteel]

10 minutes ago, King of Crowns said:

so why not just make traders invulnerable? so that they cant be hurt at all? sounds like pretty world with unicorns to me.

Why dont you just fight combat ships? or is that too hard, that what most of us do.

 

Read the post combat marks for fighting all.....including traders.

Edited June 22, 2017 by BallsOfSteel

[Grundgemunkey]

Just now, King of Crowns said:

Ya know I really hope that this is NOT the reasoning of the devs. I would really like to know so I hope @admin or @Ink will tell us why they made the sudden change. Surely you can see your bias towards your own tendencies in this post. you just said "why make a special bonus for them in this game". so you want an open world with only RVR and PVE no hunters, no killers. just this pretty lil world where everyone can sail there ship without fear of being killed. Unless of course its a port battle. and if you are right and the devs are taking this approach towards hunting/pvp then that's their choice just let me know so I can uninstall.

no i dont want a bias towards any group because i dont think there should be ,,, as i said i have no one particular bias .. i like PVP,PVE and RVR depending on time available and mood im in

you like pvp ..its you proposing a bias towards your gaming preference ... to the extent that if  those that like to hunt and pvp dont get special rewards you will uninstall ...

the game should give all players whatever their game play style the opportunity to reach the same level of achievement ,,, saying pve players can just grind money and buy from pvp players isnt good enough

[Landomatic]

Why not just make an arena style combat game with ships that have instant queues that require no coordination, removes the uniqueness of ship customization,  and doesn't really require long term camaraderie?  Oh wait, I just filled an application for just such a thing.

[Corona Lisa]

2 hours ago, King of Crowns said:

@admin could we at least be given the explanation for such a radical move. the test server had these mechanics for months. and less than a month after the wipe this mechanic is totally destroyed. can we at least hear the reason for the change?

Because PvP marks promote ganking new players which is cancer for the game.

 

I want more gold, more XP and more combat marks from PvP so that I dont feel I waste my time while I could unlock some slots and get some money from PVE missions.

[King of Crowns]

A basic fact of the game is at this point you have really got to screw up to get GANKED or caught in a undesirable fight. let me list all the hindrances to open world pvp just so the non-pvp crowd can understand. 1 you have to find a player ship this will take on average 1-2 hours. 2 the ship must not be close to a fortress/tower/shore defence. 3 the ship must not be close to a large ai fleet. 4 the ship must be catchable before it reaches such a place or fleet. 5 the ship needs to be one that can be caught and killed by your ship that your sailing (referencing sailing profiles of ships example trinc will never catcha surprise). 6 the ship cannot be accompanied by an overwhelming group of allied players (1 trinc will not kill 2 aggys). 7 you must have the correct wind in order to close the gap (if he is upwind of you the chase can easily take 20/30mins in open world, usually by then he is at a fortress).8 once you tag the ship it must be a good tag because the lazer guided butt guns on the ships (he can easily chain your sails with almost 100% accuracy from his stern guns. while your bow guns have way less accuracy)..................... IF.....IF.......IF you overcome all of these obstacles you can get one pvp kill (assuming you can win the fight). THEN there is the 2/3 hour chases in the open world running from the revenge fleets.  

Don't you think the devs have done just about everything they can to help you not die from a hunter/trader killer? and today they removed all reason for anyone to hunt pvp.

[Landomatic]

2 minutes ago, Grundgemunkey said:

no i dont want a bias towards any group because i dont think there should be ,,, as i said i have no one particular bias .. i like PVP,PVE and RVR depending on time available and mood im in

you like pvp ..its you proposing a bias towards your gaming preference ... to the extent that if  those that like to hunt and pvp dont get special rewards you will uninstall ...

the game should give all players whatever their game play style the opportunity to reach the same level of achievement ,,, saying pve players can just grind money and buy from pvp players isnt good enough

The value of marks shouldn't denote a bias towards gameplay, just availability.  People represent their own bias towards gameplay and like to assign value to whatever their contribution to their community is.  If an item is harder to get it should be worth more.

[King of Crowns]

8 minutes ago, Grundgemunkey said:

 

you like pvp ..its you proposing a bias towards your gaming preference ... to the extent that if  those that like to hunt and pvp dont get special rewards you will uninstall ...

the game should give all players whatever their game play style the opportunity to reach the same level of achievement ,,, saying pve players can just grind money and buy from pvp players isnt good enough

but I am expected to go grind PVE so I can have money? and why cant I build my line ship from PVE? why must I participate in RVR to get a line ship?  what ur suggesting is just going back to the old system. NO marks at all. and honestly at this point they might as well.  and it was you that suggested that the pvpers need to wait for ARENA..... not me. and yea if there are special rewards for the conquest people and for the PVE people why cant the PVP people have rewards?