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Alternative To the Conquest Mark system


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First of all i want to apologise to @Jorgefor the basic cutter fire ship last night! It was a low blow, our behaviour came out of sheer frustration with the state of the British Nation! Seeing your L'Ocean fleet did not help.

Now let me present my suggestion: First of all i don't see the need for any player to own a Ship of the Line! or even craft one!
Ship of the Line should only exist in the Admirality store, and a player can get the oportunity to borrow a Ship of the Line, providing his/her Nation has scheduled a Port Battle with another Nation and the player earned enough hostility points.

example:
A group of players in the British Nation decided to flip an  enemy region, they gather a big fleet and start to raise hostility in that region. Players earn hostility points, both the attackers and defenders do their best. Now lets assume that the region got flipped. A port Battle is scheduled. According to my suggestion the players with hostility points will be able to borrow from the Admirality shop a Ship of the Line. Like so: <2000 hostility points will let you borrow a 1th Rate, 1500>2000 will give a 2th Rate,1000>1500 gives 3th Rate and so on.
This ships can only be used a couple of hours before a Port Battle and dissapear at the end of it.

This is just a sugestion wich in my opinion will even the odds, making both PB open to everyone interested along with sailing a SoL. We can evek keep the dreadful CM system with the abylity to purchase nice mods.

Thanks!

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Hmmm.. I think this idea needs some refinement but it's not altogether crazy :D

I think in terms of pure language "borrow" a ship of the line could be changed to "posted to" or something like that. Also perhaps enable you to have a SOL for a period which would run from the time hostility is raised until soon after a port battle would theoretically occur (say 25 hours). This would reduce the number of SOLs on the waters (something the devs sought with the construction requirements) and also make them a "special event" while still not reducing them to JUST PBs. The timer would start once the "posting" is issued but the posting could be traded (within the 25 hour period) so that others could sail it should you have to do silly things like go to work or sleep. 

It would serve to balance the strengths and weaknesses of minor nations vs. stronger ones too and perhaps also stimulate some OW PvP both creating and countering hostility generation or hunting down or interrupting the SOLs while they are sailing to and fro. 

 

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3 hours ago, AxIslander said:

This ships can only be used a couple of hours before a Port Battle and dissapear at the end of it.

Or you can have separate "Experience like" bar/level that would be raised by hostility/pvp activity. And those points would be used to Rent / Maintain SOL (daily / hourly upkeep).

The SOL would be locked out in dock if you run out off points, and ship stats would drop gradually over time if you would stay in OW (without points).

This way you would be able to personalize it with upgrades, but use it only if you prove to be active/succesful player against enemies. Smaller SOLs would use up less points.

Edited by Darayavahus
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Lords system is great on paper and with new UI it should have shined (imagine nice flags for your lordships, and beautiful letters from with the red seals etc). 

The problem with the system that like in real life old lords are not interested in wars and are interested only in the status quo. 
New lords (unlike real life) do not want to change the status quo and don't want to attack old lords and take their holdings...

Any thoughts on why?
To much land giving pensions?

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17 minutes ago, admin said:

Lords system is great on paper and with new UI it should have shined (imagine nice flags for your lordships, and beautiful letters from with the red seals etc). 

The problem with the system that like in real life old lords are not interested in wars and are interested only in the status quo. 
New lords (unlike real life) do not want to change the status quo and don't want to attack old lords and take their holdings...

Any thoughts on why?
To much land giving pensions?

Cause the majority of the players aren't hard core PvPers or RvRers.  So they are happy with what they get and that is it.  What we need is something to make them have to want to keep those lands.  I honestly liked the old refits system being depended more upon the region ownership so there was a reason to own that region.   The other thing is to many regions are captured and than folks don't do anything with it.  They should have some degradation too, if you don't pay a tax for upkeep or something than it can get auto agro and be easy to flip by another nation.  Though the owner of that region can set a tax on all sales to help with the upkeep and such.  THey can set it high and be greedy over lords or low and eat most the cost themselves or their clan as it would prob more be clan owned.  

To many folks reap on the rewards of others that win those ports.  I really loved the land grant concept ya'll came up with around when the patch was announced that got shelved within a day.  I'm sorry the guys that do all the hard work should get the majority of the rewards.  You want the better rewards get off your arse and fight for them.

Part of the problem with the land giving pensions is right now it's the strongest and quickest that get the reward.  SO it hurts the little guys in the long run.   Specially when you have a very bad population balance towards one or two nations.  

Edited by Sir Texas Sir
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17 minutes ago, admin said:

Lords system is great on paper and with new UI it should have shined (imagine nice flags for your lordships, and beautiful letters from with the red seals etc). 

The problem with the system that like in real life old lords are not interested in wars and are interested only in the status quo. 
New lords (unlike real life) do not want to change the status quo and don't want to attack old lords and take their holdings...

Any thoughts on why?
To much land giving pensions?

As Sir Texas Sir stated and...

The system doesnt promote pvp it promotes trades.  Why fight for something if we can just trade for it.  

Conflict comes from economic, religious, or cultural differences.  Currently in game we dont have 2 out 3 of those and the economic differences are minimal at best.

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A tax would help considerably and I feel like that has been suggested a few times.  

If a port owner (Lord) had the ability to manage tax rates however, there needs to be consequences for setting high taxes too though (perhaps a % chance to rebel and go neutral/pirate/American haha). It would help rein in the doom fleets a little bit due to costs, but you could also get some weird financial issues with alts and stuff basically laundering money for the clans. I'm not sure.. 

As Hodo also said there is not really any sort of PvP promotion. Most conflict seems bizarrely personal "omg you brought a cutter and attacked my 1st rate I'm reporting you/destroying your nation" or the like. I don't think encouraging religious or cultural differences as a basis for war is a good idea purely for happy server pop and economic differences as a primary motivator for conflict will result in a haves vs. have-nots fight which will only depopulate the server..  

I seem to be ending all my recent posts with ".." and that is probably reflective of my overall mood post-wipe. 

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45 minutes ago, admin said:

Lords system is great on paper and with new UI it should have shined (imagine nice flags for your lordships, and beautiful letters from with the red seals etc). 

The problem with the system that like in real life old lords are not interested in wars and are interested only in the status quo. 
New lords (unlike real life) do not want to change the status quo and don't want to attack old lords and take their holdings...

Any thoughts on why?
To much land giving pensions?

Wave something shiny in front of their face and they will.

-Achievement ladder that requires them to go in wars to earn recognition and rewards. 

-Region locked ships, hold region enable specific ship construction. 

You need to restrict some things and make them available only after wars. I just think you guys don't have that sin apple. Pensions are not enough. 

Peter_Paul_Rubens_004.jpg

 

Edited by Lordicious
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28 minutes ago, admin said:

Any thoughts on why?
To much land giving pensions?

Honest assessment: people are so risk-averse they do not want to risk port battles with each other.

They seriously do not want to start until they have their "fleet of 25 first rates" and right now it's labor and materials holding them back moreso than conquest marks.

 

Maybe......

Maybe what we need is a game mechanic that doesn't just make you desire owning new ports but makes you desire owning them NOW. Not next week. Not two weeks from now. But NOW.

How do we do that? What does that mean? I'm not sure. I'm just imaging that I'm sitting there with a partial fleet, "not yet ready" but some game mechanic is pressuring me to attack now rather than wait and build and wait and build and wait and build which is what everyone is doing.

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1 hour ago, admin said:

Lords system is great on paper and with new UI it should have shined (imagine nice flags for your lordships, and beautiful letters from with the red seals etc). 

The problem with the system that like in real life old lords are not interested in wars and are interested only in the status quo. 
New lords (unlike real life) do not want to change the status quo and don't want to attack old lords and take their holdings...

Any thoughts on why?
To much land giving pensions?

i think its a function of supply and demand. if everyone can have enough supply to satisfy their demands then they have no reason to risk their ships in a port battle. I think your line ships are to cheap as far as CQ marks go. u need to create a larger demand and a shorter supply. so I think if you were to take the amount of marks needed for a line ship and multiply it by 3/5 you would see more port battles. however... the problem is that some nations are much farther ahead of others at this point in the game. so perhaps that's not an option at this point unless you wipe all the line ships or do something to balance where all the nations currently stand with that PB fleet. you have to much land and not enough players at the moment for this system to be effective without massive number changes in the supply and demand.

Edited by King of Crowns
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1 hour ago, admin said:

Lords system is great on paper and with new UI it should have shined (imagine nice flags for your lordships, and beautiful letters from with the red seals etc). 

The problem with the system that like in real life old lords are not interested in wars and are interested only in the status quo. 
New lords (unlike real life) do not want to change the status quo and don't want to attack old lords and take their holdings...

Any thoughts on why?
To much land giving pensions?

perhaps your other system was better where ships actually had to be sunk in order to get conquest marks. yes it is exploitable but at the same time it shouldn't be hard to monitor the port battles for exploiters. there is only so many port battles that can be made in one day. I would think it would be much easier to monitor this rather than the alt farming for pvp marks.  this will force one nation to fight another for sure.

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14 minutes ago, King of Crowns said:

yes it is exploitable but at the same time it shouldn't be hard to monitor the port battles for exploiters.

I dont think so

You can't punish someone for "playing bad"

(When they don't bring cannons while sitting and that being streamed is a different thing tho)

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3 minutes ago, Liquicity said:

I dont think so

You can't punish someone for "playing bad"

(When they don't bring cannons while sitting and that being streamed is a different thing tho)

well at least that way one side has to loose something for the other to gain. right now everyone gains without loosing anything. but it one side brings 25 frigates to fight 25 1st rates its going to be pretty obvious what's going on right? or 25 suprises vs 25 aggys.

Edited by King of Crowns
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2 hours ago, admin said:

The problem with the system that like in real life old lords are not interested in wars and are interested only in the status quo. 
New lords (unlike real life) do not want to change the status quo and don't want to attack old lords and take their holdings...

Any thoughts on why?
To much land giving pensions?

I think the big problem is the snowball effect. Nations or clans with a ton of conquest mark income (like SORRY or VLTRA) get more than enough conquest marks every day. They can just keep stacking and getting stronger and stronger while nations with very little income are starving (Brits). If Brits for example dare to attack someone they risk all their conquest marks they collected the last 3 weeks or so. If you have a low conquest mark income and lose a PB you are done. Its an all-in.

This means small nations either dont have the marks needed to be competetive at all or they risk much more compared to their opponent.

 

How to fix it:

  • PvP marks needed for all 1st and 4th rates
  • Conquest marks needed for Indy, Endy, all 3rd rates and all 2nd rates.

It means you need PvP marks for portbattle ships and Conquest marks for OW PvP ships. Through this every nation and every player can stay competitive and participate in portbattles independant of its outcome. It promotes OW PvP, but it also requires OW PvP or a lot of gold to participate.

 

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2 hours ago, Hodo said:

As Sir Texas Sir stated and...

The system doesnt promote pvp it promotes trades.  Why fight for something if we can just trade for it.  

Conflict comes from economic, religious, or cultural differences.  Currently in game we dont have 2 out 3 of those and the economic differences are minimal at best.

What about marks based on BR sunk and BR different. 

In short you get your pension based on the BR you sink. Sink a SOL you get 50 marks paid out at 1 a day till you run out or lose the port. 4th rate is worth 40 marks and a shallow is work 25.

You get bonus conquest marks for sinking a ship at equal or grater BR to your ship up to 5. Sinking a ship with lower BR has a diminishing return down to a minimum of 1.

Empty / Trades get you nothing. 

Pulling a "Vicious" and bringing in ship to be sunk will cost coin and give minimal marks. 

Players will also need to continually participate in PBs to get marks. 

Best of both worlds. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, admin said:

Lords system is great on paper and with new UI it should have shined (imagine nice flags for your lordships, and beautiful letters from with the red seals etc). 

The problem with the system that like in real life old lords are not interested in wars and are interested only in the status quo. 
New lords (unlike real life) do not want to change the status quo and don't want to attack old lords and take their holdings...

Any thoughts on why?
To much land giving pensions?

 

Given current system just make a few adjustments. 

1) if you gain "x" hostility or counter hostility points in a region and your side wins the PB you get a pension.

2) If you are on winning side in PB  where a fight haopens you get pension.

3) if you meet either requirement in 1or 2 but are on losing side you get a single CM for good work done.

4) Pension pays to much. Should be more like 1 for PB then 1 for every 2 or 3 days you control region. 

 

This will both get more people some CMs and flow down to overall spread. Plus no fight in defense no payout for defenders. 

You want to make it real interesting. Add a version of the Green zone around all PBs starting 60 minutes prior till 30 minutes after. Make it 2x current zone and NO tagging inside period. You want to stop people getting in a PB... Interdict the port for hours before. The time after allows for avoiding the BS revenge fleets after. 

All just ideas but that us what alpha is about right?

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To get more dynamism between enemy Lords:

1) Pensions for holding a region could be limited to 10 or 15 days max.

2) Cancel the friendly port fliping possibility:

==> CM earned depends on damage level inflicted by fleets in PB's, even with fleet extra rewards when high level damages (ex: damages = fleet kills ratio / BR ratio), forts & towers kills do not generate rewards or points to attacker side.

==> Defenders fleet can earn PVP Marks when loosing PB depending to same ratios results, forts & towers inflicted damages included.

==> Empty port battles do not generate CM to winners, only region ownership. 

3) Cancel hostility system, re-implement flag system, limited to 2 flags per nation per day (Flag cost in gold or CM or war supplies, second flag much more expensive). Flags available only for adjacent foreign regions. Capturing a flag is rewarded.

4) Re-implement Alliance system with 1 ally max for 15 days max followed by 15 days cooldown with same nation.

5) Crafting should be cheaper in CM & PVP Marks, as well as materials easier to collect (ex: re-implement free towns deliveries), so smaller clan have better chance to build ships.

6) Re-implement Teleport to Capital with same cooldown.

Edited by Celtiberofrog
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The Conquest Marks are not ideal cause once the lines are drawn for a nation, and you don't have any lordship in any of the regions, and this continious for multiple weeks of status quo (like we have had on the EU server with some nations) the game starts to feel boring realy realy fast. And like I have seen on the British nation, when the opportunity occurs to have a PB, even this was an arranged port activation, you have every man and his horse show up to enter.

Imagine if Brits would attack, even if we would have a full PB fleet, some people will just rush in cause they smell conquest marks even if they don't have a PB ship. You can't deny them the entry, its the game, you can enter nothing against the rules there. But it rather feels like its every man for himself and not all for one, one for all. Which ads to the state british are in.

I say remove conquest marks and replace them with PvP marks, give PvP marks according to the BR of the ship you sunk, for instance 140PvP marks for a surprise, 250 for indefatigable. And increase admiralty prices accordingly. The Lord Protector gives a daily PvP marks "pension" instead of conquest marks.

If (like with crew) the amount of mounted cannons on the ship are also translated to the BR rating of a ship (no cannons = nearly no BR), alt farming or just mutual agreements of PvP farming will be unprofitable in the long run. This mechanic will create more OW PvP, nations who are legging behind in the armsrace can go out and hunt in enemy waters to get more PvP marks to close the gap. The better captains (not those in the biggest clan) will be those getting the most PvP marks, and the easiest acces to bigger ships. You'll never have the feeling that your with your back against the walls cause you can't match anything the enemy brings.

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Things mentioned in here could give an alternative idea how it could work ... i really mean could because i have no idea if it would be really better ... 

anyway if we keep the actual system people who do screening and hostility / counter hostility need to get a piece of the cake so more player are able to get rewards from portbattles except the 25 who can participate in each nation.

1/4 to hostility, 1/4 to screeners, 1/2 to the actual port batlle, within this parts of course needs to be considered how much each person did ... someone who just attacked 1 npc ship of course should not get the same reward to someone who sank 10. 

additional to that reward the defender if they fight and not just run away doesn't matter if they win or lose. 

these things could make port battles more interesting because alot more will want to participate. aswell random players can get a piece of the cake and it will hopefully motivate them to group up and organise themselfs

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On 06/20/2017 at 11:05 PM, Jon Snow lets go said:

I think the big problem is the snowball effect. Nations or clans with a ton of conquest mark income (like SORRY or VLTRA) get more than enough conquest marks every day. They can just keep stacking and getting stronger and stronger while nations with very little income are starving (Brits). If Brits for example dare to attack someone they risk all their conquest marks they collected the last 3 weeks or so. If you have a low conquest mark income and lose a PB you are done. Its an all-in.

This means small nations either dont have the marks needed to be competetive at all or they risk much more compared to their opponent.

 

How to fix it:

  • PvP marks needed for all 1st and 4th rates
  • Conquest marks needed for Indy, Endy, all 3rd rates and all 2nd rates.

It means you need PvP marks for portbattle ships and Conquest marks for OW PvP ships. Through this every nation and every player can stay competitive and participate in portbattles independant of its outcome. It promotes OW PvP, but it also requires OW PvP or a lot of gold to participate.

I agree with this idea

Edited by C0deX
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