Senhor Lenhador Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Today while raising hostility in the region of Comayagua we encountered various members of the British faction, (screenshots below) engaging in what we believe amount to griefing and exploiting with Basic Cutters in the pursuit of making RvR difficult or impossible. When we engaged AI fleets (as is necessary to raise hostility) the Basic Cutters would sail as close of possible to our fleet in Open World and then be dragged into the battle instance (due to the ROE) or would later join the battle (we believe the created instance counts as a PvE battle) with the sole purpose of setting fire to each other and exploding next to our ships. This was organised and planned on the British Nation Chat (pictures below) and done in full knowledge of how and intention to circumvent the recent ROE changes affecting Basic Cutters. The goal was purely to make it impossible to engage in either proper PvP or PvE hostility generation. http://imgur.com/a/lP2JS The organisation in Nation Chat http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=950787682 The names and fireshiping http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=950787527 http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=950787571 Sailing close to our ships in OW. Now we believe fireships to be a legitimate tactic with plenty of evidence in history (as if Spaniards would forget about fireships :P) but this is different. Firstly because it's no risk, a Basic Cutter costs nothing and upon dying you are teleported back to the closest port. This has been brought up before in other tribunal posts and was resolved by changes to what the Basic Cutter could and couldn't attack. We understood those changes to mean that the Basic Cutter was to considered a "basic PvE ship" and even if there were workarounds. http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/20821-hotfix-1-for-patch-101/ On that understanding our main problem, and what we think is the offense is, is using PvE workarounds to engage in PvP that would otherwise be disallowed. We believe the precedent was set and the message made clear with the incident at Cap-Francais that even though the mechanics of the game might temporarily allow something, common sense and user discretion has to be an important part of making the game the best it can be. This wasn't a last resort, there was no attempt to engage our fleet with anything but Basic Cutters that weren't to even be used for PvP beyond griefing. Even while in battle many of the British Captains got around our attempts to demast the cutters by firing on each other, in violation of the rules against 'Green on Green'. http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/16347-warning-green-on-green-friendly-damage-is-no-longer-allowed/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3de9UFkG_E 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bjerg Bjergsson Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 I'm (VGA) Bergsson in the cutter towards the end of the video above. A well presented case and lots of citations of various admin posts etc. A little disappointed the music didn't last until the end of the video, but let's be honest it was always going to be a bit of a let down from the start wasn't it with 7th rates vs. 1st rates. I'm not trying to stir up any ill will towards anyone, it's a game and it is under development so I'm going to present the exact nature of my side of the story and leave Admin to do as they will and accept whatever comes. I am the head of a 10 person clan of widely varied degrees of skill (3 Rear Admirals, 1 Commodore, a Post Captain and then the rest is all M&C and below). I play considerably more than they do but we schedule some gameplay once or twice a week when we can. Since the wipe, as a combined Clan we have raised about 300-400k gold using what resource gathering we can. Part of that coin has gone towards moving and establishing our small clan in the Belize area. The biggest ship we have in our clan at this point is one free Indefatigable with guns, one without and the rest are cutters or Privateers (I hesitate to call our Trader Brigs big ships..). Such was the setting I found myself in when I noticed the call-out on Nation chat that the Spanish were raising hostility adjacent to Belize, thus threatening the establishment of our new home. I set sail in the only ship available to me that wasn't a trade ship or an unarmed 5th rate to attempt to drive down hostility or to make it harder. Hearing that the Spaniards were mustering 18 1st Rates did make me decide to equip an Open Magazine perk as I figured if I was engaged by them I could at least hopefully explode near them. I made my way to an area they had been reported in and there found what was undoubtedly their 1st Rate fleet engaged with a BR rank I now forget. Regardless and perhaps in a moment of insanity I vowed to throw myself upon the enemy in the hopes that I could choke them with my body if I couldn't engage them with a ship even close to equal rank. The above video is an accurate depiction of the ensuing event. What is not captured is that Henry Turner and I agreed that should we reach a suitable distance and it seem like there was no hope and had we not already been set aflame by the Spaniards than we would endeavour to ignite each other. This clearly displeased the Spanish and I will point out that I offered my condolences that I could not meet them in a ship worthy of their show of force during the battle itself. They quickly dispatched myself and Mr. Turner without much issue and soon after I found myself in nearby Omoa. I sailed out in the cutter provided and stumbled upon the fleet once again. To my surprise they were headed away! It seems that the cutters were enough to drive them off, though I am shocked given the ease with which Cutters are defeated by 18 1st rates and various other ships as well. I followed along and there was a rather heated discussion as to what happened and again I offered my condolences that I couldn't answer them in kind. This battle was the first I'd heard of this whole scenario being an "exploit" and I find it odd that it is being termed that way given I joined the battle like I join every other battle. There was no warning, no sign that I was jumping in on a PVE battle (it never even occurred to me that the huge Spanish fleet only wanted to PVE). Admittedly I don't read the Tribunals and much of the threads in this region of the board so I had no idea that this manner of gameplay was an issue. I understand the Spanish clan's frustrations at their hard work being done away with given the ease of a Basic Cutter's acquisition and the difficulty of a 1st rates (I think GB has some 4th rates but I've only read about it in Nation chat), but I'm confused as to how else we are suppose to respond if all we can muster are 5, 6 and 7th rates? The response I heard repeatedly from the Spaniards was "get organized" but my clan is pretty organized for it's small size but at the same time we don't have the hours in the week to put into whatever tasks are required to get 1st rates. So if this is an official exploit than surely something more substantial needs to be done in game to prevent it from happening!? Of equal importance in my view is the necessity to enable players without ships of the line to still defend their territory without being labelled as "destroying the game" and harassed in private and global chat. I don't really know what the solution is, I haven't had much time to think of one as I've been writing out my account. Nonetheless if it creates such anger and frustration (and I have no doubt they feel justified in such emotions) than clearly there needs to be a more proactive and lasting solution that benefits both sides of the conflict. To the players of VLTRA, while I feel this could be handled better (perhaps by everyone), I have no ill will and will of course abide by any Admin decision. I do hope to see you all on the seas soon - and perhaps from equal sized deck next time. o7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JollyRoger1516 Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 The Brits on EU have no ships to throw away at first rates but basic cutters. And the Admins ahve stated several tiems that fireshipping/scuttling green on green is allowed. Honestly using fireships against such a fleet alone is quite the feat and as they got no other ships to fight you thats their last possible strategy. All you are trying to do is stir up the pot so your 'decleration of war' (was there ever peace?) makes some sense. Honestly - what response did you expect from a nation that doesn't even have a full 4th rate PB fleet? Not like they would risk their 4th rates against first rates and they got nothing better then their PB fleet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hethwill Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 A reminder of the Rules of Engagement regarding basic cutters Quote Basic cutters are no longer pulled into PVP battles with the following conditions basic cutter cannot attack other ships (including basic cutters) basic cutter can be attacked basic cutters are not pulled into battles if you attack another ship basic cutter ARE pulled into battles if you attack a basic cutter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorge Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 3 minutes ago, The Red Duke said: A reminder of the Rules of Engagement regarding basic cutters A basic cutter can enter in a battle with other players...this is PVP A basic cutter can engage a fleet with 10x BR A basic cutter cost is 0 Fine, we all going to go with basic cutters and join other players fleets and missions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hethwill Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 PvE is not PvP at start but can be populated by players in both sides. The ROE for Basic Cutters is, again Quote Basic cutters are no longer pulled into PVP battles with the following conditions basic cutter cannot attack other ships (including basic cutters) basic cutter can be attacked basic cutters are not pulled into battles if you attack another ship basic cutter ARE pulled into battles if you attack a basic cutter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorge Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 Ok, fine. From now on we will go to enemy ports in basic cutters, we will get into their missions and explode to do the greatest damage possible. Perfect solution. You have loved it like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorge Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 12 minutes ago, The Red Duke said: PvE is not PvP at start but can be populated by players in both sides. The ROE for Basic Cutters is, again PvE go PvP when players adds both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hethwill Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 3 minutes ago, Jorge said: PvE go PvP when players adds both sides. make a suggestion. Specify the details. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hethwill Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/forum/2-suggestions/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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