New Player to 6TH Rate Experience is Bleeding Players and Needs Attention

[Tenet]

The Labor Hours required to craft a Brig or a Mercury are too high compared to PB grade ships, resulting in a market where Crafters don't benefit from wasting LH on such ships and they don't actually show up sufficiently in stores. 

Now that we can no longer capture 6th rate ships for new players, and now that prices were increased on all shops, everyone is absolutely reliant on crafters. In bigger clans, these crafters are typically  focused on pushing out Port Battleships. In smaller clans, these people suffer from low resources. New People without a clan are totally ruined unless they are great talented players, which always a SMALL minority. Bad Players also need to survive for the game to have a healthy population.

PREDATORS WILL NOT SURVIVE WITHOUT A STEADY SUPPLY OF PREY.

Having a Brig or Snow or a Mercury sink becomes a disaster case because the win to loss ratio to recoup losses is so high. The player has to survive ~5 to 10 missions to recoup their costs. If they make one mistake, they are ruined, pushed back into a Basic Cutter. 

Veterans and Clan Members don't understand that this is EVISCERATING THE LIFEBLOOD OF THE GAME.

This is CRITICAL levels of damage. Many of us are doing everything we can to help but it's not enough. 

Players are forced to be dependent on Clans and Help and it's going to be discouraging even for the few that get help. 

No one wants to be a beggar. No one wants to be reliant on gifts. 

THIS NEEDS TO BE FIXED NOW NOT IN SIX MONTHS. 

There are many options for a solution. Pick one and make it happen!

~ title edited. more clear now ~ the moderation team

Edited June 6, 2017 by Tenet

[Neptune]

1 hour ago, Tenet said:

PREDATORS WILL NOT SURVIVE WITHOUT A STEADY SUPPLY OF PREY.

This. 

[_Masterviolin]

I must agree entirely, the crushing costs inflicted upon the players can only really be mitigated by pooling resources, devoting numerous hours of rather boring trade and relying upon clans. Everything has very high costs, and it is quite painful upon the solo player. Cannons are ungodly expensive, lest the nation's cannon industry is very strong, consistently refilling the market and in a position to sell at low costs. Ships have had prices increased significantly  as well. Meanwhile, missions are only so profitable. Loot from traders and sunk vessels is dismal at best. We can't capture NPC ships either. And we now have an XP system which seems quite fun to the veteran,  but is simply too much for any remotely casual player. Grinding out three or more levels of XP knowedge in an ungodly number of ships that you may not even like just to gain extra slots on the one ship you like is not fun when combined with the extremely high price of buying and fitting out ships. 

In addition, no one is getting any ship above the Indy lest they participate in clans and fight port battles. That's cutting off virtually half of the game's ships to any casual players. It's also worth noting that once all of the nations have conquered their "home ports", the supply of conquest marks will decrease significantly as the only PBs won will be hard-fought battles that may rarely even happen or be entirely orchestrated by clans.

The grind and huge costs in the game are fine as long as players are well rewarded for their efforts, and can enjoy themselves whilst doing the grind. Slapping insanely high costs on everything in-game whilst not adjusting profit earned by players in combat to adhere to more time-constrained players will stunt growth. After all, there is a reason steam ratings have plunged to the lower 40s over the past few weeks. 

Edited June 6, 2017 by _Masterviolin

[Tenet]

On 6/5/2017 at 10:26 PM, _Masterviolin said:

The grind and huge costs in the game are fine as long as players are well rewarded for their efforts, and can enjoy themselves whilst doing the grind. Slapping insanely high costs on everything in-game whilst not adjusting profit earned by players in combat to adhere to more time-constrained players will stunt growth. After all, there is a reason steam ratings have plunged to the lower 40s over the past few weeks. 

 

This is what many people currently in-game don't seem to see or understand:  we are a tiny minority of survivors compared to a huge majority of new players that get very quickly burned out from the mindless Basic Cutter grind. 

Out of the 10000's (100000's?) that bought the game on Steam and during alpha, only about 1500 remain active.

We could easily have DOUBLE the population if the developers adjusted the beginner experience to actually reflect what the game provides - the amazing fun of sailing a Mercury or a Surprise or one of the many other iconic ships.  Can they not comprehend that so many people quit the game without ever trying those ships out?

If they are intentionally causing this attrition to keep populations and server costs low, they are making a huge mistake, because people won't just leave, they will be disappointed at the lost potential and will complain on STEAM REVIEWS, causing them to slide, causing FUTURE SALES to disappear. 

I remember last year how developers discussed the Ratio between Money Earned and Ship Cost. 

They said "You die 5 times but during those battles you earn enough to buy a new ship of the same level, so you can eventually come back and fight again." Where did that logic disappear with this patch? Are we intentionally lied to? Why are the rewards not 5x larger on smaller ships? Why are the smaller ships not 5x less expensive? You killed durability while at the same time increasing the actual cost of an equipped ship. 

Why is this increase in difficulty not reserve to 5th rates and above?

Why is the existing community not up in arms over the deliberate killing of the newbie population, the lifeblood of community growth and future competition?! 

 

Edited June 8, 2017 by Tenet

[charognard666]

Because Darwin ? 

NA is a niche game, difficult, with grind, where soloyers will have an hard life... I don't think we need to adress anything. We need polish the game, make tune on mechanics, and ADVERTISING the game for what it is. By the way, all casuals and instant action fun and gratz will stay away, and don't post bad reviews. 

My 2 cts. 

[AlteSocken]

25 minutes ago, charognard666 said:

By the way, all casuals and instant action fun and gratz will stay away,

So you want all the casual players - mainly people with real-lives - out of the game? I think the casuals (I'm one of them) are the cash-cow which makes games like this possible.

Anyway, I've to agree that getting on foot with patch 10 is quite hard. Pre patch I made it to mercury. Right now I have a hard time maintaining my Pickle, since trading and crafting became much more difficult and making mony in the ow is also not easy.

Of course this is my fault, since I'm only a casual player who only has a few hours to spend weekly. For sure, if I were a student or had no family life at all I could easily invest the time neccessary ... but as you said, maybe this game is not made for me.

[charognard666]

Just now, AlteSocken said:

So you want all the casual players - mainly people with real-lives - out of the game? I think the casuals (I'm one of them) are the cash-cow which makes games like this possible.

Anyway, I've to agree that getting on foot with patch 10 is quite hard. Pre patch I made it to mercury. Right now I have a hard time maintaining my Pickle, since trading and crafting became much more difficult and making mony in the ow is also not easy.

Of course this is my fault, since I'm only a casual player who only has a few hours to spend weekly. For sure, if I were a student or had no family life at all I could easily invest the time neccessary ... but as you said, maybe this game is not made for me.

lol, it's funny how ppl who don't want dedicate time for video games can be arrogants, and have assumption on others... You haven't time ? Not my fault, if you have only few hours by week, you'd better to stay stick on console games or solo games. Try NA legend, it'll fit better to your life and time.

About me, i'm a worker since my 19 and i'm actually 40, with a wife, 2 kids, a full time job taking 9h of my life every days, and for information, i have a real life with friend and a big garden with a big pool and a nice car  But, unlike you, i know find time to play games i like  

[AlteSocken]

1 minute ago, charognard666 said:

  But, unlike you, i know find time to play games i like  

So good for you then. Congratulations.

But I think it's also arrogant to say "Hey, people who do not have the min amount of n hours to play, stay away!".

[charognard666]

We aren't guilty because guys buy a game with slow progression and time consuming, but ppl can't ask forever to change the game to make it fitting to them. Well it's not arrogant, it's obvious, game is hardcore, a simple fact. It's not your taste, i have no problem with this statement, and i respect it.

Anyway, what i love with NA, Devs make the game they want, we can agree with it or not, but i like this politic and at the end, we'll see if enough ppl are ok with them and make the game living. Actually, we have +1000 online players all nights, it's cool. Even if the game die, there no reasons for drama, we'll simply move on another game with memory of the thousands of hours passed on NA  

[admin]

On 06.06.2017 at 2:18 AM, Tenet said:

The Labor Hours required to craft a Brig or a Mercury are too high compared to PB grade ships

can you explain in more detail?

[Anne Wildcat]

17 minutes ago, charognard666 said:

lol, it's funny how ppl who don't want dedicate time for video games can be arrogants, and have assumption on others... You haven't time ? Not my fault, if you have only few hours by week, you'd better to stay stick on console games or solo games. Try NA legend, it'll fit better to your life and time.

About me, i'm a worker since my 19 and i'm actually 40, with a wife, 2 kids, a full time job taking 9h of my life every days, and for information, i have a real life with friend and a big garden with a big pool and a nice car  But, unlike you, i know find time to play games i like  

Talk about arrogant. I only have weekends to play, so maybe 8 hours a week and I'm a hardcore fan.  Not leaving.  Yes this patch is hard, week 3 and still getting my Econ and money stash set up, but it doesn't deter me. 

[Sir Texas Sir]

1 minute ago, admin said:

can you explain in more detail?

And I want to know what a PB grade ship is?  We don't have the Heavy Rattler so I'm goign to bet the Mercury will return alonog with the Navy Brig to being port battle ships in shallow waters.

 

Still think the HEavy ratterl BP needs to be in the Pirate Den....lol

[AlteSocken]

7 minutes ago, charognard666 said:

We aren't guilty because guys buy a game with slow progression and time consuming, but ppl can't ask forever to change the game to make it fitting to them. Well it's not arrogant, it's obvious, game is hardcore, a simple fact. It's not your taste, i have no problem with this statement, and i respect it.

Anyway, what i love with NA, Devs make the game they want, we can agree with it or not, but i like this politic and at the end, we'll see if enough ppl are ok with them and make the game living. Actually, we have +1000 online players all nights, it's cool. Even if the game die, there no reasons for drama, we'll simply move on another game with memory of the thousands of hours passed on NA  

I never said it's not my taste. I love this game! I was just pissed about you bashing casuals.

But lets get back to mature-mode ;-)

[Gysendorf]

31 minutes ago, charognard666 said:

lol, it's funny how ppl who don't want dedicate time for video games can be arrogants, and have assumption on others... You haven't time ? Not my fault, if you have only few hours by week, you'd better to stay stick on console games or solo games. Try NA legend, it'll fit better to your life and time.

About me, i'm a worker since my 19 and i'm actually 40, with a wife, 2 kids, a full time job taking 9h of my life every days, and for information, i have a real life with friend and a big garden with a big pool and a nice car  But, unlike you, i know find time to play games i like  

I guess you will find it boring when on your server are less than 100 players over the Caribbean and than you will ask whats was going wrong that by over 100k sold games only less than 100 plays this game. Than it is too late boy!

[charognard666]

3 minutes ago, Gysendorf said:

I guess you will find it boring when on your server are less than 100 players over the Caribbean and than you will ask whats was going wrong that by over 100k sold games only less than 100 plays this game. Than it is too late boy!

Well no i will not asked anything, there thousands of games waiting to be test or played. NA is in EA and it is in my library, if tomorrow there are 100ppl or if i'm bored or if an another game call me, what's the problem ? Are u dying irl with a game lol ? 

Edited June 8, 2017 by charognard666

[Hethwill]

For sure the arguments brought are valid.

But, why invest everything you own into one ship that you can lose to a elite pvp clan that can send you back to Basic Cutter ?

Why not give small steps, learn all the ships, keep a stash of money on the side and not rush up the biggest thing ?

When two schooners can bring down a surprise then that imaginary castle of cards crumbles. It is not about ease of access. It is about learning the strengths and defects of each ship along the way. That's what a newcomer should concentrate on while he battles AI and the PvP battle now and then being guided by the veterans.

[charognard666]

11 minutes ago, Borch said:

Ahh, then you dont understand the point of EA game and people posting their feedback/suggestions on the EA game forum.

 

I totaly understand, i'm not born today and it's not my first EA ! But when feedback and suggestions hurt the concept of a game, you reach the critical point of acceptable feedback/ suggestions.

[Guruthos]

20 minutes ago, The Red Duke said:

But, why invest everything you own into one ship that you can lose to a elite pvp clan that can send you back to Basic Cutter ?

Why not give small steps, learn all the ships, keep a stash of money on the side and not rush up the biggest thing ?

The problem is wehn you are new in this game you maybe don't know yet that you need to have some money to get a new ship all the time.

and even as a bit experiended player by player yesterday night because of lack of concentration i got boarded by ai renomee on my cerberus and lost (shame on me i really was not focused at all). luckyly i could get back my 2nd cerberus from shop i wanted to sell to amke some money. 2 fights later i nearly lost it aswell in a 2 vs 4 fleet mission. then i decided it's better to go to bed ^^

if sth like this can can happen to someone who played around 300 hours NA (i know it's really not much compared to others) how will it be to someone who played just maybe 30 hours ... you can easy lose 2 ships on the same day. 

most people simply like to rush trough as fast as possible and maybe invest all they have to get their nice new ship. and especially in the beginning you need to work hard for it and you might fear it will continue like that. but because as more money you have as easier it gets to earn money so even a loss of about 100.000 can be undone in just an hour. a new player maybe doesn't experienced that yet so his frustration is big.

training instances (i am not sure if it's the right english word) would be great for learning to fight where another player can jump in aswell guiding the newcommer and where is no risk of ships. maybe aswell 2 players stearing the same ship (manual sailing) to show the big differences.

[Hethwill]

Yes. But it is no different from plenty other games. Hence why I usually claim that a newcomer will adapt and will learn as much as he does in any other game.

You have a point on the training, but this is where the clan/community/group enters I guess. A group of 2 can attack a NPC trader and train manual sailing for example.

[Guruthos]

I say it is harder here because i had as i started this game more difficulties then in most games to learn it and still i do learn sth new about it what i didn't knew before. Don't missunderstand. i like how it is now right now except the mark system and i need to sail some ships i don't like. but it's fine for me and i enjoy.

yes indeed they can and people do like that to open a battle instance but wouldn't it be better to have a special one with a ship maybe actually fighting but with way reduced damage so you have time to explain and not just a trader who runs away?

[Mrdoomed]

As a casual player without a big clan to help me it took me about 5 days before I got a drop item worth enough gold that i could outfit abd buy a brig class ship.

That in itself i can live with but what is the killer for me is even in the most remote place on the map ( an hour from closest) capital city ive already been revenge ganked comming out of a battle. One time I was chased to a port but lived AFTER about 40 minutes of retags. The other in a differentremote spot i lost my ship because the revenge fleet kept retagging me till i HAD to log off for work.

Players will not stay for that. This will quicky be back to 40 hard core gankers per server just regenge ganking each other. 

[maturin]

Quote

The Labor Hours required to craft a Brig or a Mercury are too high compared to PB grade ships, resulting in a market where Crafters don't benefit from wasting LH on such ships and they don't actually show up sufficiently in stores. 

This makes no sense. Labor Hours are free. By the time you have gathered the mats for a Mercury, you will also have the LH. And as a new player you only need to build one ship every now and then.

And what new player is building ships anyways? It is complicated. New players need to learn the game first, and missions + trader hunting is an effortless source of money for the first 3 levels. You can buy all the necessary low level ships from NPCs for cheap. By the time you are off the dole of missions, you can have 200k or more. That's plenty of seed money for crafting, trading or PvP.

In short, the OP has very little to do with new players. Sounds more like generic crafter complaining dressed up with 'you are killing the game!!!!1' rhetoric.

(I haven't used any of my redeemables, by the way. I am playing as a new player.)

 

I'm glad the devs reverted the empty trader insanity from the Testbed and added repair kit scavenging and mods to sinking ships.

[Tenet]

Quote

The Labor Hours required to craft a Brig or a Mercury are too high compared to PB grade ships, resulting in a market where Crafters don't benefit from wasting LH on such ships and they don't actually show up sufficiently in stores. 

9 hours ago, admin said:

can you explain in more detail?

Yes, Thank you for asking.

There are two main LH costs - the materials and the recipe itself. I will show two cases, one where the Snow or Mercury is going to be sold on the market, and one where the buyer contacts a Shipyard crafter and supplies all the materials. For comparison, I will use the Constitution, average priced 4th rate possible to use in mid-level Port Battle.

The LH is not "free" from a Crafter perspective, because for a long time the Demand for ships will outstrip Supply of Crafters, so LH are a zero-sum game where new players are directly opposed by rich veterans competing for the same resource. 

http://www.navalactioncraft.com/craft-ship/snow (I know this website isn't accurate right now, but it should be close enough for this discussion)

Snow: 835 Labor Hours (396 from ship) = 396 recipe + 439 materials

Mercury: 1,012 Labor Hours (468 from ship) = 468 recipe + 544 materials

Constitution: 2,568 Labor Hours (1,222 from ship) = 1222 recipe + 1346 materials

Consider a typical crafter with L2-3 Shipyard - he has three primary customers:

1. PVP clan members that need replacement and backup ships - they will likely spend their LH making components and come to you with Materials and Money to cover the LH. Some may bring a Labor Contracts but that adds 50K to their expense for every 500 LH, raising the price by 100K to 150K, as much or more as the Material costs, a very high markup they would want to avoid. Still, this is also the population that is best at game and makes the most money. 

2. Clan Junior Members that need a Snow or Mercury replacement who can gather their own materials and need only the recipe covered. They cannot bring Labor Contracts because that 50K markup will double the price of the ship, so they want the Crafter to cover all the Recipe costs.

3. Open Market Buyers - crafter supplying all materials and LH and placing the ship on-sale (with mild profit margin). This requires all LH to be by Crafter.

Which one of these paths offers the least resistance and most profit for the Crafter? Which one is more lucrative?

1200-1300 LH gets the nation a 4th rate, a PB capable ship that can defend the realm. 

400-450 LH gets the nation a 6th rate, useful only to the player leveling (except shallow port battles)

That is already an unfavorable ratio for the 6th rates because they are much less useful on most of the map, and are much more likely to sink in both PvP and PvE.

Why bother crafting 6th rates when all your LH will be dedicated to pushing the majority PB on the map for your nation, with grave ruin awaiting any nation that loses the war of attrition? They already focus on the immediate danger, and they will continue churning out 4ths and 3rd and eventually 1st rates and their replacements (exception, Pirates). 

3x 6th Rates don't counter 1x 4th Rate in most Port Battles. The 6th rate crafting cost could easily be 200 LH and still remain substantial in comparison. 

Worst Case Scenario: Placing a 6th Rate on the Market: The total cost in LH is competing against partial costs of higher tier ships sold to clans who bring mats.  

Constitution for 1222 LH to join the PvP for the Nation, or 1012 LH for a Mercury or 835 LH Snow to help someone level up? Constitution and its loss-replacements clearly prevail. 

So the absolute majority of Shipyards will focus on producing 4th rates and above for PB, and then their replacements as the PvP happens and ships sink. 

This is why the markets are mostly empty right now, and are likely to remain so unless PB wars are avoided for multiple weeks, unlikely on a PvP server. 

You could argue that Training Crafters will want to produce 6th rates, but this is not true on the server right now - their highest paying customers are Richer Clan Members who need to replace Trading Ships where the prices can include much more profit markup and still sell.  Many Crafters also carried their Crafting XP from before wipe, so many no longer want to produce low tier ships at all.

There is also no intuitive system in place to ensure Crafters don't try to steal mats provided for crafting - except if they have all of them ready and conduct trade for a finished ship, another un-intuitive step. Finding a reliable Crafter is therefore a tricky and patient task, not one that is fun. 

The problem is with the LH and up-front costs at the most fragile and vulnerable levels in the game, during the first dozen hours of someone's Naval Action beginnings, while directly competing with Veteran players and their demand for ships. 

They should begin their game with easy access to Brig-type ships, being able to easily get a new one whenever the old one sinks, instead of being pushed to a Basic Cutter that doesn't teach them the critical sailing skills, and that misrepresents the fun and interesting parts of the fighting. 

Edited June 8, 2017 by Tenet

[Fuzzyhead12]

13 hours ago, Tenet said:

 

This is what many people currently in-game don't seem to see or understand:  we are a tiny minority of survivors compared to a huge majority of new players that get very quickly burned out from the mindless Basic Cutter grind. 

Out of the 10000's (100000's?) that bought the game on Steam and during alpha, only about 1500 remain active.

We could easily have DOUBLE the population if the developers adjusted the beginner experience to actually reflect what the game provides - the amazing fun of sailing a Mercury or a Surprise or one of the many other iconic ships.  Can they not comprehend that so many people quit the game without ever trying those ships out?

If they are intentionally causing this attrition to keep populations and server costs low, they are making a huge mistake, because people won't just leave, they will be disappointed at the lost potential and will complain on STEAM REVIEWS, causing them to slide, causing FUTURE SALES to disappear. 

I remember last year how developers discussed the Ratio between Money Earned and Ship Cost. 

They said "You die 5 times but during those battles you earn enough to buy a new ship of the same level, so you can eventually come back and fight again." Where did that logic disappear with this patch? Are we intentionally lied to? Why are the rewards not 5x larger on smaller ships? Why are the smaller ships not 5x less expensive? You killed durability while at the same time increasing the actual cost of an equipped ship. 

Why is this increase in difficulty not reserve to 5th rates and above?

Why is the existing community not up in arms over the deliberate killing of the newbie population, the lifeblood of community growth and future competition?! 

 

THX

 

I Am a small ship fan, I usually use a niagara or mercury for PVP, but if i look at the current ship prices.

Brig 60k

Merc 90k

Snow 80-90k

Niagara 100k

Suprise 100-120k

 

so why would i choose ever a Brigg classed ship, then a Light frigate is more costeffective, its the wrong way around

Briggs,Schooners, Barqs, these should not get higher then 60k in sales, yes a niagara should not cost more then 60k.

and a gap should exsist between a brigg and a frigate, the suprise can still stand on her 120k, so we would still have a gap of 60k, i can buy 2 niagaras for 1 suprise.

that would encourage smaller players into PVP, will make a higher demand for lower ships, making it easier for low level crafter to bring their ships to a captain and so on.

so make some adjustment to Crafting material s needed for Brigg and lower classed ships and boom suddenly 1,5k sailors

[Wesreidau]

@charognard666 This is how Naval Action will die.