New System Of Marines

[William Death]

Currently: on testbed, marines upgrade is a hard % of your crew: 

50% for the 6-7th rates

30% for the 4-5th rates

Not Sure about 3rd-1st rates

I don't like being forced to run a large % of my crew as marines, or be forced to run no marines at all. 

So here is my Proposal:

Marines upgrade gives you an option to carry however many marines you want, up to a certain maximum % (same % per class system as what is used on Testbed now) of your crew. This is accomplished with a sliding bar tool, just like our crew levels work currently. Here are two examples:

On Trincomalee, I want to carry 55 marines, so I select the marines upgrade and then use the sliding bar to choose exactly 55 marines. 

On Surprise, I want to carry 150 marines; well, I can't, because the hard cap of 30% marines is still in place for 4-5th rate ships. The most I can carry is 72 (30% of 240 crew) not counting the extra hammocks or crew space.

I think this system will give a nice variety to the way we kit out our ships: some captains may favor more marines, some may favor fewer marines, some may still sail with no marines at all.

Thoughts?

 

[Barberouge]

Sliders could replace many shipbuilding/fitting modifiers, but the system with 0/1 options is coded, simple and functional. Maybe another upgrade with a different % could fit the purpose ?

[William Death]

4 minutes ago, Barberouge said:

Sliders could replace many shipbuilding/fitting modifiers, but the system with 0/1 options is coded, simple and functional. Maybe another upgrade with a different % could fit the purpose ?

Aye, if the coding is hindering a slider system, then yes I would think some additional options for marines...say 10% 15% 20% etc. would work well for those of us who don't want to be bogging down reload with a lot of marines, but at the same time want to have a few marines to help out with the occasional boarding action.

[Atreides]

I like your idea Willis.  If I was going into a hotzone I always ran green marines {20%)with gold barricades, IMO they gave the best balance of boarding strength while not hindering gun reloading.  Having a 6th rate with 50% marines has made me just not use them.

Edited May 2, 2017 by Atreides

[NavalActionPlayer]

4 hours ago, Barberouge said:

Sliders could replace many shipbuilding/fitting modifiers, but the system with 0/1 options is coded, simple and functional. Maybe another upgrade with a different % could fit the purpose ?

@Barberouge Good to see clear feedback. You explain the constraints simply and offer a compromise, a good way of getting a positive dialog going.

I want to check what you mean....I think you are meaning that you cant change things too much. Willis suggests having a multiple choice of percentages (replacing his original slider idea) for each ship. I think having several percentages to chose from would be a good idea but can you actually do that?

I am guessing that what you mean is that you can change the percentages as a one off global game update. For example, changing the game so that the marines percentage becomes (say) 30% for 6/7 rates, 20% for 4/5 rates and 10% for 1/2/3 rates rather than the current percentages. From a player point of view there would still only be one option - to have marines or not, with no flexibility on how many. Is that correct? If so, then it would at least be step in the right direction to reduce the percentages and should be a 'hot fix' type of activity.

Can a more flexible option be scheduled into the development for a future release? Don't want to delay the 'wipe' but it would be good to have a more flexible system added in the future.

[Barberouge]

5 minutes ago, NavalActionPlayer said:

I am guessing that what you mean is that you can change the percentages as a one off global game update. For example, changing the game so that the marines percentage becomes (say) 30% for 6/7 rates, 20% for 4/5 rates and 10% for 1/2/3 rates rather than the current percentages. From a player point of view there would still only be one option - to have marines or not, with no flexibility on how many. Is that correct? If so, then it would at least be step in the right direction to reduce the percentages and should be a 'hot fix' type of activity.

Can a more flexible option be scheduled into the development for a future release? Don't want to delay the 'wipe' but it would be good to have a more flexible system added in the future.

No, I mean instead of sliders, the current system of upgrades could be used to get multiple choices - 2 solutions for example:

1. Simple: having 2 Marines upgrades that can be stacked
   • Marines1 15%
   • Marines2 35%
2. More complex: having more Marines upgrades but mutually exclusive
   • Marines1 10%
   • Marines2 20%
   • Marines3 30%
   • Marines4 40%
   • Marines5 50%

Though for the wipe patch there won't probably be any mutually exclusive upgrade groups yet.

 

Percentages adapted to ship size type are different and exist in parallel. They can be changed as well.

[Hethwill]

Crew does occupy hold space by the way. Hope you take this into account in calculations

[elite92]

this is a little off topic: some time ago i proposed that marines should be added to crew like it was in the past and like it was in real life.

so in this way a ship could have marines plus its full crew and have the full capability of sailing and firing , and at the same time have the boarding preparation grow quicker.

dunno what was the exact number of marines on each type of ship but i could imagine it was something like 20% of crew ( a ship with 100 crew should have 20 marines ).

the downside on the ship should be the more weight and thus less speed both in ow and in combat, in this way we dont need to have more type of "marines" upgrade.

(on a bigger ship marines should influence less the speed of the vessel).

thoughts?

[Guest]

I prefer having a max marine number.... 4,5 rate =max of 50 marines      6,7 rate  = 25     3,2,1 rates = max of 100 marines total. 

Edited May 2, 2017 by Guest

[Hethwill]

1 hour ago, elite92 said:

 20% of crew

Pretty much on spot. Was something like 45(?) Marines including the Officers for frigates like the Surprise. ( can check the exact number when I get back home ).

 

[elite92]

1 hour ago, The Red Duke said:

Pretty much on spot. Was something like 45(?) Marines including the Officers for frigates like the Surprise. ( can check the exact number when I get back home ).

 

and what do u think about my proposal of adding marines to crew and not remove them from crew? with the debuff of less speed or maybe also other penalties... maybe more crew lost from grape and/or cannon balls.

in my "wet dream of Naval Action" marines on upper deck of a ship of the line can fire their muskets to a near frigate with open deck and kill 1-2 man per seconds if the frigate is under X meters (100?)  but this is harded to code than my first post

[Hethwill]

Sure, if devs manage to make musketry in the future would be a good addition.

Crew should occupy space but not necessarily affect speed.

Marines in excess - meaning over the Rate allowance - should be paid by the coffers of the captain at a high rate tbh.

[William Death]

10 hours ago, Barberouge said:

More complex: having more Marines upgrades but mutually exclusive

• Marines1 10%
• Marines2 20%
• Marines3 30%
• Marines4 40%
• Marines5 50%

 

This system would be good, too I think. It is similar to what we have on the live servers from my understanding, but with the new system you won't have to hit pray button and hope for random drop of gold, blue, or purple marines I hope. 

The main idea I am proposing is to get away from a single "all-or-nothing" marine upgrade like we have on testbed now:

      I don't like to run over 20% marines most of the time...they hurt the reload and manual sailing too much. However, there are       times when I will kit out a ship with my gold marines.

At any rate, I'd be happy to see some diversity in the marines upgrade. Also, would it be at all possible to squeeze a 15% and 25% marines in there? Those two percentages would be the sweet spot for a lot of the ships I sail, and I know of a few others who like to run just a few marines, but the grey sometimes prove too few, and the green or blue marines take up too many crew. 

[NavalActionPlayer]

11 hours ago, Barberouge said:

No, I mean instead of sliders, the current system of upgrades could be used to get multiple choices - 2 solutions for example:

1. Simple: having 2 Marines upgrades that can be stacked
   • Marines1 15%
   • Marines2 35%
2. More complex: having more Marines upgrades but mutually exclusive
   • Marines1 10%
   • Marines2 20%
   • Marines3 30%
   • Marines4 40%
   • Marines5 50%

Though for the wipe patch there won't probably be any mutually exclusive upgrade groups yet.

 

Percentages adapted to ship size type are different and exist in parallel. They can be changed as well.

I'd go for option1 for a 'quick and dirty' before the wipe and then option 2 for a post wipe update.

[Ratline]

Definitely needs more flexibility. Personally prefer the 2nd option of mutually exclusive groups. Been testing new player experience and as it stands 50% is really a no go if you're sailing a cutter or the likes. In turn that means new captains will be very vulnerable to being boarded as they learn the ropes, even by AI.

[DeRuyter]

13 hours ago, elite92 said:

this is a little off topic: some time ago i proposed that marines should be added to crew like it was in the past and like it was in real life.

so in this way a ship could have marines plus its full crew and have the full capability of sailing and firing , and at the same time have the boarding preparation grow quicker.

dunno what was the exact number of marines on each type of ship but i could imagine it was something like 20% of crew ( a ship with 100 crew should have 20 marines ).

the downside on the ship should be the more weight and thus less speed both in ow and in combat, in this way we dont need to have more type of "marines" upgrade.

(on a bigger ship marines should influence less the speed of the vessel).

thoughts?

In the Royal Navy the Admiralty set the number of marines at 1/6 of the complement for larger ships and 1/7 for smaller ships. So for example a 36 gun frigate would have 50 marines. Certainly not anywhere near 50% of the ship;s complement. 

[maturin]

Maybe we should bring back the crew cost, but for marines only.

[admin]

1 hour ago, maturin said:

Maybe we should bring back the crew cost, but for marines only.

historically (we have found the reference) the number of marines was almost always somewhat equal to the number of guns on the ship +/- 20 soldiers. 

We found this later after the changes to marines were done. So marines are not final as well as boarding bonuses. 

[Hethwill]

Attention that in some instances additional complements of marines / naval infantry would be on-board as per request of the Flag Squadrons or Fleet Admirals.. Less of a standard thing but more tied to the objectives set for the cruise, especially with the Station fleets.

[Custard]

It is also worth noting that training with muskets could be down to the attitude of the ship's Captain I do not see the need to be too historically correct.

Wasn't one of the Spanish or French ships at Trafalgar drilled with muskets, because the Captain thought it was a good idea, much more than was 'normal' I forget which ship?

[Major General La Fayette]

43 minutes ago, Custard said:

It is also worth noting that training with muskets could be down to the attitude of the ship's Captain I do not see the need to be too historically correct.

Wasn't one of the Spanish or French ships at Trafalgar drilled with muskets, because the Captain thought it was a good idea, much more than was 'normal' I forget which ship?

You are referring to "Le Redoutable" a French 74-gun 3rd rate commanded by Lucas who almost boarded the HMS Victory. Some says that Nelson's was killed by one of the French sharpshooters on the masts of Le Redoutable while board to board.

"At the Battle of Trafalgar, Redoutable rushed to cover the flagship Bucentaure when the ship following her failed to maintain the line. She tried in vain to stop Nelson's HMS Victory from breaking the line and raking Bucentaure, and then engaged her with furious cannon and small arms fire that silenced the British flagship and killed Nelson. As her crew prepared to board Victory, HMS Temeraire raked her with grapeshot, killing or maiming most of her crew. Redoutable continued to fight until she was in danger of sinking before striking her colours." - Wikipedia

 

Lucas reported :

"a violent small-arms exchange ensued (...); our fire became so superior that within fifteen minutes, we had silenced that of Victory; (...) her castles were covered with dead and wounded, and admiral Nelson was killed by our gunfire. Almost at once, the castles of the enemy ship were evacuated and Victory completely ceased fighting us; but boarding her proved difficult because (...) of her elevated third battery. I ordered the rigging of the great yard be cut and that it be carried to serve as a bridge."

 

Le Redoutable is on the center of this paint, surrounded by the HMS Temeraire on the left and the HMS Victory on the right.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Major General La Fayette

[Sir Texas Sir]

I would like to pick how many marines I would want for a build.  On live a lot of times I ran a hybrid board build.  Us smaller guns, or down grade the Marines mod so I can still be combat effective but very deadly in boading.  So I tended to run Blue or Purple Marines most the time to balance out the crew so that I can run all my guns effectivly as long as I keep one deck turned off.  This made it hard for folks to guess if I was board fit.  Though I would have Barricades and one other mod like sword fighting hand book.

Now my issue is that every freaking AI has green marines no matter what (20%).  So why can't every one have a based of 10% maines in there crew and than the mod adds 10-30% crew to that base?   I would prefer to see this instead.   Maines should never eat into the crew needed to sail a ship too.

[maturin]

Speaking of Trafalgar, a lot of Spanish ships carried up to 50% of their complement with musket-wielding line infantry. Of course, this was an act of desperation, not a tactical decision.

 

I rather doubt real marines were any more useful in boarding combat than your average jack tar . There's nothing useful about bayonets aboard ship. Grab an axe and get stuck in.

Marines specialized in musketry, but nothing stopped common seamen from doing the same. 17th Century buccaneers were avid snipers.

[Koltes]

Voted yes for the slider option as there is no better option for the current crew/marine mechanic and the slider gives you some sort of customization.

However...
I believe that the whole crew thing needs to have totally different mechanic and built around officers and crew efficiency:

1. All ships owned (even the docked ones) should have at least minimum crew on board to work on it and keep it in good working shape;
2. Crew should be hired free of charge. Its unheard of to pay/buy crew once and then not paying any wage;
3. Thus when you hired crew there should be daily wages paid to all  your crew;
4. As a player you should be able to hire ANY amount of crew not rank dependent. The only limitation is how much crew you can afford to pay on regular basis;
5. Your fighting rank allows to control maximum number of crew in a battle (determines the rate of the ships you can sail);
6. Marines are trained combatants and should cost more wages to hire than ordinary seamen;
7. Each ship needs to have officers that are assigned to that particular ship and progress their rank when this ship is sailed or participated in combat. Officers represent the quality of your crew. The higher the rank of the officer the better and faster your crew operate, thus cannoneer officer will directly affect how accurate your cannon crew is, how fast they reload and what are the chances for cannon malfunction. Skipper will have direct affect on seamen manning the sails and so on;
8. Officers don't die. Officers from one Renommee can be transferred to another Renommee without penalty;
9. Officers can also be so skilled that would actually boost crew abilities beyond their 100% normal efficiency;
10. Officers can be transferred to any other ship of the same rate without penalties applied, however will not provide any boost to crew skills unless they are sailed and ranked up on the new ship, e.g. you Renommee assigned officers have ranked up and provide extra 10% bonuses (110% total efficiency). They are now transferred to another 5th rate Surprise. Because it is same rate ship there are no penalties applied, however there is also no 10% bonus, until officers have ranked up on that ship;
11. Officers are part of the ship. There is no teleport for them between outposts like there is for a player. They can only be moved to another ship if they are physically located at the same place, thus makes it viable to have more officers hired.

Devs proposed before that everything in ship building would be dependent on the space, thus having marines should require more cargo hold used for living quarters, means less of other things can be installed on the ship. Simple slider is just 2 way option. Cargohold limitation also makes it a choice of complete ship management and built that effects all other parameters like weight, speed, maneuverability etc etc.