Durabilities - hardcore mode

[Anolytic]

Somebody has to say it: I think that with the current changes on testbed and announced plans for the wipe, we should have a new discussion about durabilities taking into consideration the new information.

 

In light of the changes that we are seeing to gameplay now, which already can be tested in the testbed, I feel that it is already worth starting to evaluate the 1-dura experiment. When the 1-dura experiment was decided, the game was very different from what we are seeing now in many regards.

Admin was never very enthusiastic about the experiment:

    

    

Quote

we will test 1 dura ships before release to close this door once and for all

 

 

That is a shame, because a single dura system solves a lot of problems, which is why I was part of advocating for removing the multi-dura system. I’m not advocating to back away from that position, but having played on testbed a bit (before my internet provider got in a turf-war with a competitor who then «accidentally» dug through the internet cable to my entire neighbourhood while laying down their fiber..) I have experienced the challenges that single-dura also brings. I think that we should have a conversation to explore the consequences that single duras are having and the possible impact of making the game just a bit too hardcore when combined with the other things we are getting.

 

In the game that we still have on the live server there is no doubt in me that no duras would be an overall improvement to the game. In the game that we have in testbed, I am not so sure. And to me, the changes that we are getting with the wipe, might be worth sacrificing the dream of single duras. If we can already determine that single duras won’t work in the game that devs now envision, why not conclude this now and not yet again go down a long path of testing something that won’t be in the final game.

 

However, should the no-dura system be abandon, as devs seem determined to do eventually anyway, there are some issues that absolutely need to be solved. 

Chief among them to me is the fact that 3 dura = effectively 2 dura. The third dura is simply useless. The last dura, when lost, looses you anything that you have on your ship that is not «tied down». By having character perks instead of the previous non-permanent modules you’d have thought that this was solved. However now we have guns instead that are more valuable than the ship they are on. Sailing the last dura will loose you not only the ship with its permanent upgrades, and potentially strand you somewhere without a decent ship to sail back in. It will also loose you a fortune in guns. 

Similarly, a multi-dura system makes capturing ships at best 1 third as valuable, and unless the above issue is fixed, practically worthless, unless we can somehow restore duras to a captured ship.

On the other hand though, the single dura system that we have on the testbed now seems to me just a bit too punishing. Especially for noobs. And particularly if we will not get access to some ships up to 5th/4th rate that do not require Marks to craft.

Edited April 29, 2017 by Anolytic

[Anolytic]

51 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Easier to achieve balance if some little things are tweaked. Right now lossing a ship is so punishing because of the time and gold we need to launch and prepare a ship.

A 20% increase of the LH, 1-3 knots more in OW and a good increase of the gold rewards (50%) would do the trick. 

I agree with you. 1 durability only makes winning PvP more rewarding and solves economy issues. But when we get no rewards for ships that are not sunk, and thus no returns for loosing PvP, single durabilities are an extremely punishing system. Especially while people are learning PvP. They can spend a lot of time and money to build a ship, go out one time, get ganked immediately and be right back where they started.

[Stilgar]

To some extent I share your concerns, but I am overall positive about chances of single-dura system and accompanying changes. After all, its not just about single-dura vs multi-dura, but also about the combined RoE, battle mechanics, economics, and crafting changes.

So, let's look at the punishing part. Loss of a ship means:

- loss of ship and perma upgrades (painful indeed, particularly if it's 4th rate and up)

- cannons (also quite painful, although crafting should diminish the pain to acceptable level)

On a positive side, crew is currently free of charge (when in port) and there is no loss of ship knowledge bonuses. Furthermore, crafting of ships up to 5th/4th rates looks quite accessible, although it is not clear whether compass wood is still a fine material or can be crafted in dedicated building, and whether PVE marks will be required for crafting ships (this would be a big mistake imo).

Another aspect of concern is that mismatch in skill between a beginner and veteran will be accentuated by mismatch in ship quality (lack of regional bonuses installed, no or just a few knowledge slots open for beginner/casual player). That would very likely cause a higher rate of ship loss for beginners/casual players. Aside from loosing ship, they will not be getting valuable experience and marks, that would allow them to progress in game. That is why I keep pleading for a balanced approach to ship bonuses of any sort and avoiding of unnecessary grind of ship knowledge.

The above situation is all right for experienced player or player sailing regularly in a group/clan. For lonely/casual player it will be more of a challenge and much will depend on their own patience and tenacity, but also  on n game economy, e.g. prices on the ship market. Such players need a bit of help from both devs and the community. More specifically,

• devs have to come up with risk-free tutorial (scripted missions) for beginners, which provide valuable experience and first rewards ! (tutorial was part of the plan I heard, but not sure about risk-free part)
• Comprehensive manual and guides should be made available and easy to access (official manual and  up-to-date community guides and tutorials). 
• Last but not least, the community should try to be more generous with beginners (advice, ships, resources, money sharing), but most importantly involving those players in group operations, if even they are not part of a clan. Fortunately, ganking is not the only thing the community greet the beginning players with and overall I am quite positive about the level of community support.

Finally, with above said I am (again) overall positive about the chances of new version. In fact, I hope that the above challenges to the players might change the approach to sailing and fighting for the best. Players will tend to group up. When in small groups faster ships will likely be used. I bet players will actually try to keep the distance in battles and play sailing/maneuvering game to keep the options open. We shall see more organized withdrawals and overall lower numbers of ships will be sunk as in the past. I hope that all in all we'll see more realistic and interesting fights, as apposed to straight-ahead brawls and en masse sinking of the multi-dura times.

Edited April 29, 2017 by Stilgar

[Fargo]

What exacty are the reasons 1 dura isnt going to work? As often made clear in the 1 dura discussion: Its not a change of ship cost balancing. When ships turn out to be too expensive, we can decrease costs/increase incomes.

The only issue i see is ship transport/removal of ship delivery. In the past we could transport up to 5 ships at once, even more with fleets. I think ship deliveries are necessary between outposts with 1 dura ships, but i might be wrong. But thats no reason to increase durabilities either, only to eable deliveries again..

[Snoopy]

I think 1 dura can work. The question is how the overall grind is packaged.
The problem I see is instead of just testing 1 dura viability in a controlled way - with the existing crafting, transport systems and teleports still in place and then deciding if that direction is good or bad and afterwards testing the fate of teleports, etc. we get a baby-with-bathwater scenario and doubling down on the Fine Woods disaster.

And just like Fine Woods - which may have been viable in isolation - all the other changes make pinpointing and tuning the grind rather difficult.

 

[PIerrick de Badas]

i thought that if you sunk a surrendered ship you get the mark no?

I think it has to be really test and not wiuth 10 people online and no eco but with the normal population