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"REAL" TRADE BETWEEN PLAYERS


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I am wondering myself for a while, why we cannot trade with players from another nations in this game, in some kind of TRADE MARKET.

Now it is always possible to "SEND TO CHAT" something that you HAVE, signaling you would like to sell it, usually the buyer would contact you per PM, meet at Free Port, trade.

So far so good.

Now if the GLOBAL chat is gone, this possibility is not given anymore, but that is not the main reason.

Well someone would say " you can set a CONTRACT" in any Free Port, if you want to sell something or buy, and that is true..Here is my problem.

I DO NOT WANT TO SELL ONLY FOR MONEY, I WANT GOODS OR MATERIALS.

I think we should be able to CHOOSE not only WHAT are we selling, or BUYING, but also what are we OFFERING.No matter  if selling or buying.

So instead of OFFERING money when buying, i would be able to OFFER what ever i want.

An example:

 OFFER 100 Repair Kits for 500 Silver, OFFER 500 Gold for 50 000 Money, BUYING 50 Medium Carriages for 500 Compass Wood.

And so on and so on......

Everyone can offer what he wants,demanding what he wants, for the price he THINKS it might be "reasonable".

Placing Contract would still cost a bit of money, a Contract would expire after 1 Week.

To provide meaningless sailing,hoping to find what might be good for you, it would be helpful if the GAME/DEVELOPERS could provide us a window, similar to DELIVERY MISSIONS, where we would be able to SEE the contracts, and in which Free Port are they placed.

All you have to do is sail away and get your stuff:) But be aware of the enemies :)     

Well, i think that would provide a lot of sailing,escorting, PeeWeePeeing, and allow us to have a chance for "REAL" TRADE :) 

Thank you for reading.

 

 

Edited by Fenris
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Devs keep saying they want to have a player-driven economy, but aren't providing tools to make it happen. Without Global chat there isn't any real way of communicating with fellow traders; no way of knowing what, where or when goods are put up for trade or sale. The system that says your country is either an ally or an enemy of others, without any allowance for the concept of neutral or even friendly (but not allied) has never entered the discussion. Yet, historically, that is what happened.

Serious, hard core PvPers don't want to trade anyway. Hell, many don't want in-game trade at all. They howled when the resource distribution was made more realistic because they had to get them from other players, from other national factions. They live only for PBs and would prefer this be a lobby set up to avoid all the crappy stuff like gaining experience, actual strategic planning. The only reason they bother with the OW is looking for traders to steal from (the same traders that would build the economy the Devs talk about, and provide the PvP player with the resources and materials to build the boats they want) or getting to the next PB.

While I don't have a problem with players with that mindset I feel they have had an influence on the lack of trade tools. I am confused about how the devs want to get a player econ up and running without tools, however. The horrid chat behavior, for example, is why the Global chat is considered for a cut. People who only see this as an us/them; must crush everything, everyone that isn't me or mine tend to be a bit rude.

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5 minutes ago, Challenge said:

Devs keep saying they want to have a player-driven economy, but aren't providing tools to make it happen. Without Global chat there isn't any real way of communicating with fellow traders; no way of knowing what, where or when goods are put up for trade or sale. The system that says your country is either an ally or an enemy of others, without any allowance for the concept of neutral or even friendly (but not allied) has never entered the discussion. Yet, historically, that is what happened.

Serious, hard core PvPers don't want to trade anyway. Hell, many don't want in-game trade at all. They howled when the resource distribution was made more realistic because they had to get them from other players, from other national factions. They live only for PBs and would prefer this be a lobby set up to avoid all the crappy stuff like gaining experience, actual strategic planning. The only reason they bother with the OW is looking for traders to steal from (the same traders that would build the economy the Devs talk about, and provide the PvP player with the resources and materials to build the boats they want) or getting to the next PB.

While I don't have a problem with players with that mindset I feel they have had an influence on the lack of trade tools. I am confused about how the devs want to get a player econ up and running without tools, however. The horrid chat behavior, for example, is why the Global chat is considered for a cut. People who only see this as an us/them; must crush everything, everyone that isn't me or mine tend to be a bit rude.

Well i hope they are reading this proposal of mine.

Easy to make in game and everyone is winning.

Btw..GLOBAL chat wouldnt help. You need time if someone sets a contract somewhere.YOu cant be all the time everywhere.

Edited by Fenris
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Global chat does help, I think. With it I was able to learn that someone was looking for resources I had, and was flush in what I needed. We arranged a meeting and sailed into a free port for the trade. But if we could only use the contract system I could only sell for cash; he could only buy for cash -- and neither of us needed that.

In another case someone posted for a good and I told them where I had seen some. I wasn't in a position to go get it myself, so I couldn't buy and resell.

I can see it working without it. It would be much more realistic, but would take longer to get things up and running, and may require more players than we have on any of the servers atm. But it could work.

Edited by Challenge
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48 minutes ago, Challenge said:

Global chat does help, I think. With it I was able to learn that someone was looking for resources I had, and was flush in what I needed. We arranged a meeting and sailed into a free port for the trade. But if we could only use the contract system I could only sell for cash; he could only buy for cash -- and neither of us needed that.

In another case someone posted for a good and I told them where I had seen some. I wasn't in a position to go get it myself, so I couldn't buy and resell.

I can see it working without it. It would be much more realistic, but would take longer to get things up and running, and may require more players than we have on any of the servers atm. But it could work.

You cant see it working?

I dont need GLOBAL chat to trade with someone if i have a BOARD similar to those which you can see in DELIVERY MISSIONS. There you can see what you can buy and who is selling what. I am talking about PLAYER TRADING PLAYER. 24/7, around the map.

I do not care where i can buy Bavarian Grain.

I want to know where to get Medium Carriages from a player who does NOT NEED MONEY maybe, but other goods.

I want to be able to SEE CONTRACTS from PLAYERS in a MARKET.

And especially those which are not based on MONEY.

 

 

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14 hours ago, Fenris said:

I think we should be able to CHOOSE not only WHAT are we selling, or BUYING, but also what are we OFFERING.No matter  if selling or buying.

Dont think this is a good idea. Just imagine a market with not only dozens of items, but in addition dozens of different offers per item... We have gold, or money in reality, because it makes trading less complicated. When it was hard to find buyers in the past sometimes, with specified offers it would be much harder.

Also works against competition. When someone puts a expensive contract selling x, you dont have to go cheaper, just choose another "currency". You would basically need to know the actual values for everything to keep an overview. For example someone is selling 50 large carriages for 180 Barrels, and another guy 50 carriages for 1700 Wooden fittings. You own both, now find out whats the better deal. How? You finally calculate the gold value, cause everything uses the same fixed production, and more or less fixed labour costs. 

You sound like money is limiting your trading options, but thats not true. Where is the limitation when i sell my barrels for money, to buy the 50 carriages for money? I need to set more contracts, but this means more competition. When contracts are limiting, ask for mor contracts. 

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7 minutes ago, Fargo said:

Dont think this is a good idea. Just imagine a market with not only dozens of items, but in addition dozens of different offers per item... We have gold, or money in reality, because it makes trading less complicated. When it was hard to find buyers in the past sometimes, with specified offers it would be much harder.

Also works against competition. When someone puts a expensive contract selling x, you dont have to go cheaper, just choose another "currency". You would basically need to know the actual values for everything to keep an overview. For example someone is selling 50 large carriages for 180 Barrels, and another guy 50 carriages for 1700 Wooden fittings. You own both, now find out whats the better deal. How? You finally calculate the gold value, cause everything uses the same fixed production, and more or less fixed labour costs. 

You sound like money is limiting your trading options, but thats not true. Where is the limitation when i sell my barrels for money, to buy the 50 carriages for money? I need to set more contracts, but this means more competition. When contracts are limiting, ask for mor contracts. 

Money is limiting my options because i can only DEMAND money for my materials right now. And that is not a good option :)

You can demand whatever you want for your surplus, even Fir Log, because it COULD save your money and Labour hours, because you don`t know what am i crafting on the other side of the map,and i do not know what are you crafting.

Demanding money does not mean it makes trade easier, its restrictive and does not use the potential of the players.

That is the whole point of another kind of trade.

Being able to TRADE things, means to get rid of something you can have easily, and GAIN something that you dont have.

Btw,you are giving a totally wrong examples of possible trading. I guess nobody would offer 50 Large Carriages for 180 Barrels(LOL?). Why would anyone with 50 functional brain cells do something like that?

You can offer 50 Large Carriages also for money,gold,silver,woods,rum,mahogany,bermuda cedar,live oak,coins,WHATEVER YOU WANT.

That is up to you.

 

 

 

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51 minutes ago, Fenris said:

Money is limiting my options because i can only DEMAND money for my materials right now. And that is not a good option :)

You can demand whatever you want for your surplus, even Fir Log, because it COULD save your money and Labour hours, because you don`t know what am i crafting on the other side of the map,and i do not know what are you crafting.

Demanding money does not mean it makes trade easier, its restrictive and does not use the potential of the players.

That is the whole point of another kind of trade.

Nice argumentation...  the question was why is it limiting you when you can "only" demand money for your stuff?

53 minutes ago, Fenris said:

Demanding money does not mean it makes trade easier, its restrictive and does not use the potential of the players.

Ofcourse it does, how should it be restrictive?! With money i can buy/sell everything, with items i need to find a trade partner offering exactly what i need, demanding exactly what i offer. This is restricting. Probably people wouldnt even use the direct offer/demand contracts unless you remove money, because its so much easier to find someone to trade.

59 minutes ago, Fenris said:

Btw,you are giving a totally wrong examples of possible trading. I guess nobody would offer 50 Large Carriages for 180 Barrels(LOL?). Why would anyone with 50 functional brain cells do something like that?

Thats my point, you look at the pure numbers and it tells you nothing. 50 large carriages have roughly the same value as 180 barrels (for testbed), the trade would be totally fair.

1 hour ago, Fenris said:

You can offer 50 Large Carriages also for money,gold,silver,woods,rum,mahogany,bermuda cedar,live oak,coins,WHATEVER YOU WANT.

And what is the point not to use one uniform currency instead?! 

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3 minutes ago, Fargo said:

Nice argumentation...  the question was why is it limiting you when you can "only" demand money for your stuff?

Ofcourse it does, how should it be restrictive?! With money i can buy/sell everything, with items i need to find a trade partner offering exactly what i need, demanding exactly what i offer. This is restricting. Probably people wouldnt even use the direct offer/demand contracts unless you remove money, because its so much easier to find someone to trade.

Thats my point, you look at the pure numbers and it tells you nothing. 50 large carriages have roughly the same value as 180 barrels (for testbed), the trade would be totally fair.

And what is the point not to use one uniform currency instead?! 

 Money is restrictive in the game because it has no value.

If i have to choose between 50 medium or large carriages, and 100 000 Gold/money, i would always take carriages. The player determines the price of something in the game,when he is selling it, not the "market". Why? Because not ALL NATIONS have same access to ALL GOODS and RESOURCES.

Thats how trade begins.

And some resources you can not buy with money :)

 

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43 minutes ago, Fenris said:

 Money is restrictive in the game because it has no value.

If i have to choose between 50 medium or large carriages, and 100 000 Gold/money, i would always take carriages. The player determines the price of something in the game,when he is selling it, not the "market". Why? Because not ALL NATIONS have same access to ALL GOODS and RESOURCES.

Thats how trade begins.

And some resources you can not buy with money :)

 

Are you talking about the live server and gold exploits?! Forget about it, money will be valuable again.

If i have to choose between 50 carriages and 100k gold, i look at the market. It tells me the actual labour value, then i can determine a fair price for carriages and make a decision. 

No sellers dont determine the prices directly. Yes you can set your prices however you want, even give stuff away for free or super expensive. But if you act sensible aiming for profit, you need to stick to the market.

Each nation has its own market, different access to resources means different supply and different prices. But thats not allowing sellers to determine prices?! It enables long trade runs to be profitable, while you might be able to buy stuff cheap that has low supply in your home market.

All resources are produced using gold, unless i missed something. For other currencies, like marks, there will be an exchange rate.

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40 minutes ago, Fargo said:

Are you talking about the live server and gold exploits?! Forget about it, money will be valuable again.

If i have to choose between 50 carriages and 100k gold, i look at the market. It tells me the actual labour value, then i can determine a fair price for carriages and make a decision. 

No sellers dont determine the prices directly. Yes you can set your prices however you want, even give stuff away for free or super expensive. But if you act sensible aiming for profit, you need to stick to the market.

Each nation has its own market, different access to resources means different supply and different prices. But thats not allowing sellers to determine prices?! It enables long trade runs to be profitable, while you might be able to buy stuff cheap that has low supply in your home market.

All resources are produced using gold, unless i missed something. For other currencies, like marks, there will be an exchange rate.

The game determines the value of money,you seem to forget this. You can not assume that YOUR money is more worth than mine,we all use GAME money.

Means if you do not have enough money on your account in game,like new players,you will not be able to BUY things that you need,but make them REALLY slowly on your own.

And exactly THAT is the cause of PLAYER MADE INFLATION. You will spend a lot of money to craft resources or buy them,and you want your money back by selling your products.

And sellers will demand ridiculous prices.

To prevent THIS, you need to set FIXED prices on selling Contracts,which is BS.No inflation,but also no goods ;)

You see the dilemma?

When there is no ENOUGH GOODS available for all,prices going up, everyone is crafting for his own, or his own CLAN.

Nobody sells anything,but things he can make, and mostly in own nation.

 

On the other hand, if i am able to set a contract where i OFFER goods/Resources(or Money), and DEMAND Goods/Resources(or Money), everyone is SAVING money,which doesnt mean you are not allowed to SPEND it.

You just need to make Contracts VISIBLE for all players in each nation,which can be placed in Free Ports.

 

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27 minutes ago, Fenris said:

The game determines the value of money,you seem to forget this. You can not assume that YOUR money is more worth than mine,we all use GAME money.

Means if you do not have enough money on your account in game,like new players,you will not be able to BUY things that you need,but make them REALLY slowly on your own.

And exactly THAT is the cause of PLAYER MADE INFLATION. You will spend a lot of money to craft resources or buy them,and you want your money back by selling your products.

And sellers will demand ridiculous prices.

To prevent THIS, you need to set FIXED prices on selling Contracts,which is BS.No inflation,but also no goods ;)

You see the dilemma?

When there is no ENOUGH GOODS available for all,prices going up, everyone is crafting for his own, or his own CLAN.

Nobody sells anything,but things he can make, and mostly in own nation.

 

On the other hand, if i am able to set a contract where i OFFER goods/Resources(or Money), and DEMAND Goods/Resources(or Money), everyone is SAVING money,which doesnt mean you are not allowed to SPEND it.

You just need to make Contracts VISIBLE for all players in each nation,which can be placed in Free Ports.

The game determines production cost for resources, not the gold value. This is highly dependant on player income/playtime and playstyle.

No inflation is simply caused when people sink less ships/money out of the market than income generates. Its usually a slow process and always happening. To prevent high inflation, you need optional money sinks. Like offering paints or other cosmetic items for gold.

Sellers can only demand rediculous prices, when enough people are willing to pay rediculous prices. This requires enough people to own rediculous amounts of money, inflation.

Then when people demand resources/material instead of money, why should they suddenly offer fair deals and not rediculous prices?! It makes no sense. Its no difference to demand 100gold, or resources worth 100gold. Its has no advantage to safe gold, but to give away items of the same value instead. The only purpose of gold is to buy stuff.

 

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21 hours ago, Fargo said:

The game determines production cost for resources, not the gold value. This is highly dependant on player income/playtime and playstyle.

No inflation is simply caused when people sink less ships/money out of the market than income generates. Its usually a slow process and always happening. To prevent high inflation, you need optional money sinks. Like offering paints or other cosmetic items for gold.

Sellers can only demand rediculous prices, when enough people are willing to pay rediculous prices. This requires enough people to own rediculous amounts of money, inflation.

Then when people demand resources/material instead of money, why should they suddenly offer fair deals and not rediculous prices?! It makes no sense. Its no difference to demand 100gold, or resources worth 100gold. Its has no advantage to safe gold, but to give away items of the same value instead. The only purpose of gold is to buy stuff.

 

The game already trying to prevent inflation by reducing the amount of available trading goods on Testbed. If i can`t earn money,trading, i will spend LESS buying from others or set high prices on contracts selling stuff.

The point in trading goods for goods is to save money and labour hours.

We have a situation on LIVE server where you can earn a LOT of money, but still the prices for MATERIALS and especially SHIPS are ridiculous.Exactly the opposite to your assumption where,if i have a lot of money i would spend more.That is never been the case.

Even now on Testbed, people crafting IRON and selling it in Capitol for double or tripple price on Contract. Who s gonna buy that if everyone can craft IRON?????

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 4.5.2017 at 2:41 PM, maturin said:

No one is going to build a Dutch peanut butter factory.

 

Exclusively player-driven economy is a dumb idea. How the hell can you have a Caribbean economy with no inland agriculture/mining and no Europe or transatlantic trade?

Its not a dumb idea, but the game doesnt even allow us to trade goods between us..So. :wacko:

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25 minutes ago, rediii said:

i thought trading between players of the same nation is still possible?

And if they are not in the same nation they should be able to trade trough the market, or not?

 

BTW. ofcourse it's possible without europe or inland stuff to create a complete player-driven eco. It's still a game.

You need to get stuff from europe? => Tradebuilding in a tradingport which "produces" stuff

You need to get iron? => Well, we have buildings now havent we?

We had this already.

We are not able to trade goods and materials round the map.

You can only sell or buy for money.

Thats not trading.

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4 hours ago, rediii said:

Apart from that, that i think it's pointless if we 2 discuss about that because we will not agree or understand each others points:

Selling and buying stuff is not trading? 

Trading for you is only ressources/materials/goods against ressources/materials/goods and not for money? 

Sorry you are able to trade goods and materials round the map, money is just the thing in between. Example:

__

You buy 10 silver for 20 gold

You sell 10 silver for 40 gold

You buy 20 copper for 40 gold

__

You trade 10 silver for 10 goats

You trade 10 goats for 20 copper

__

So where is the difference? I don't understand your point. prices of ressources/materials etc. vary from port to port so if you want to trade and gain money with that you can do either that or work with the market and just buy and sell in the same port with profit in between. That's trading in my oppinion.

edit: And much more fun because you actually work with the market and changing prices based on peoples believe of the worth of some ressource/material

Lol.

Exactly..

BUY FOR GOLD SELL FOR GOLD :)

NO.

Exchanging goods which are rare gives more benefits,because not all goods are available everywhere.

If you want to WASTE materials selling them for money, thats your problem.

I just want,(and still wondering myself why aren`t we able) to be able to trade goods for goods.

Thats all :)

 

 

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3 hours ago, Barberouge said:

I brought some posts from another topic here.

Considering to give us ability,when setting contracts to demand goods aswell for things we are selling/offering?

Shouldn`t be that hard i suppose, and everyone can choose what he wants when offering goods... Money or Goods .

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Player to player direct trade in the same port - as well as alliance system and smuggler flags - are the things that in my opinion should be kept just as they were before.

Edited by victor
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15 minutes ago, victor said:

Player to player direct trade in the same port - as well as alliance system and smuggler flags - are the things that in my opinion should be kept just as they were before.

How can you trade me something you dont have?

Thats trading ONLY in same nation.

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7 hours ago, Fenris said:

We had this already.

We are not able to trade goods and materials round the map.

You can only sell or buy for money.

Thats not trading.

Fenris,

I've read through your posts but don't understand what you are saying.  Why does money nullify trading ?

Suppose I want to trade 100 ton of Iron for 50 pounds of pudding.  You have the pudding. I have iron and a shiney tolken.

I give you a single shiney silver tolken in exchange for your pudding.   We agree the 50 lbs of pudding is worth 1 tolken but only if you will exchange the same tolken for my iron.

After I have your pudding and you accept the tolken you give the tolken back to me for 100 ton of iron.

In the end I have 1 silver tolken and 50 pounds of pudding.
You have 100 tons of iron.

I don't understand the difference between this form of barter and exchange with the ritual tolken and ... trading goods.

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12 hours ago, Fenris said:

How can you trade me something you dont have?

Thats trading ONLY in same nation.

in free towns you could trade also with other nation players (they are called "free" towns for a reason) and - if I do not go wrong (but here I could remember wrong) - you could also trade as well if you entered in enemy port with smuggler flag.

Edited by victor
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11 hours ago, Macjimm said:

Fenris,

I've read through your posts but don't understand what you are saying.  Why does money nullify trading ?

Suppose I want to trade 100 ton of Iron for 50 pounds of pudding.  You have the pudding. I have iron and a shiney tolken.

I give you a single shiney silver tolken in exchange for your pudding.   We agree the 50 lbs of pudding is worth 1 tolken but only if you will exchange the same tolken for my iron.

After I have your pudding and you accept the tolken you give the tolken back to me for 100 ton of iron.

In the end I have 1 silver tolken and 50 pounds of pudding.
You have 100 tons of iron.

I don't understand the difference between this form of barter and exchange with the ritual tolken and ... trading goods.

Nobody would trade Iron for Pudding i suppose.

I guess you would like to trade Iron for Carriages or Silver or Woods. Thats the whole point.

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1 hour ago, victor said:

in free towns you could trade also with other nation players (they are called "free" towns for a reason) and - if I do not go wrong (but here I could remember wrong) - you could also trade as well if you entered in enemy port with smuggler flag.

Yes i could. The problem is i have no clue who needs what and who wants what for offered goods.

Instead of those DELIVERY MISSIONS which we have in game, it would be better if we could place contracts on similar board, where you could see all the time,24/7 who offers what,what is the person demanding, and where.

That would prevent useless sailing around the map.

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18 minutes ago, Fenris said:

Yes i could. The problem is i have no clue who needs what and who wants what for offered goods.

Instead of those DELIVERY MISSIONS which we have in game, it would be better if we could place contracts on similar board, where you could see all the time,24/7 who offers what,what is the person demanding, and where.

That would prevent useless sailing around the map.

I see. Did not understand that that was your point. Actually it seems a good tool for traders, maybe also if it is limited to the ports of the same zone or of the zones nearby.

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