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The map, what do you think?


Nick Thomadis

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After a large pause... today we reveal the first map section of Ultimate General: Gettysburg and from now on we will frequently update with more info about gameplay features, first playable alpha, and release plans. I would like very much to know your opinion about the map section we show you so your comments will be much appreciated! 

 

post-42-0-34644500-1381950278.jpg

 

Read more info here
http://www.ultimategeneral.com/blog/october-update

 

Place your comments below

post-42-0-34644500-1381950278_thumb.jpg

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WoW impressive, i feel so home of this, Side Meyers map, or CloseCombat or the humor NORTH & SOUTH comics.. right on the spot right there Nick :)

 

I cant wait to see the animations and hear the millitery songs instruments and explosions and such things. I am really looking forward to see more anything that comes by your window, please cheer more hehe.

 

Outstanding job by you and your team. Give em a good Cred from me personaly... Beautiful map and Geo histsorical focus, even to learn something from the places and the historiucal battle it self :)

 

BR AN.

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LoS is innovative and completely realistic, signed by Nick (aka Darth Vader). He will soon post details for LoS, among the rest basic futures of the game, so stay tuned, surprises are to be expected! .  

I know who Nick is ;) I was a modder for TW also. Worked on Europa Barbarorum.

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The map look is sort of oldschool. I like it.

I've played Sid's game back in the 90ies and every single TW game.

 

As an example Rome 2 and CA seems to have lost something hard to describe - the feeling, the mood, like really being in control of a 'real' army.

 

This map seems to give me some of that - that good old sense of quality.

 

What would the be absolutely great is how you developer guys handle the map scarring?

Because the immersive part comes when I see smoke, craters and burning Buildings and trees

 

It's the small details, which makes all the difference.

 

Hoping to see more soon...

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The map looks great but knowing the topography over the next hill is a huge advantage historical leaders seldom enjoyed. Military balloons were employed during the Civil War to help reduce this problem; but, at Gettysburg neither side deployed balloons during the battle. I'd almost like to see the LOS control how much of the map I can see. This puts recon at a premium. Additionally, it makes Jeb Stuart relevant/critical and why Lee needed him during the early days of the battle.

See: "Why military balloons were not used at Gettysburg"

http://www.yorkblog.com/cannonball/2011/12/31/military-ballooning-at-the-january-harrisburg-civil-war-round-table/

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David-not trying to be a prick but what good would that do? I think 90% of the people who will play this game know the map very well. I know what your saying and that would be great, maybe a random map generator in the future could bring in this aspect of a battle.

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Seeing that you have asked for comments, I will go ahead and do so. First of all, I want to offer my heartfelt thanks to all of you in selecting Gettysburg as your game focus-as well as the terrific job you are doing with it's concept. I have been a student of the battle and collector of it's books and maps for going on forty years. In addition, I have enjoyed military gaming, board and computer most all my life. So, to have a game on Gettysburg-with attention to detail you folks are giving it, it is a thrill for me. I am delighted, and salute all your efforts.

In the spirit of responding to your request for comments and imput, may I offer the following. The map is beautiful and shows a tremendous amount of care and work. So in view that you obviously want to be as accurate as the design tools and game-needs allow-let me to point out a few adjustments needed.

The Forney farm needs to be on top of the ridge, just to the west of it's present position. It was not in the depression to the east of the ridge as you have placed it. The house was just south of the road; with the barn south if it. There was an orchard near, but it extended to the south of the barn. Where you show the orchard, there was a field of wheat that went half way and then the field was timothy grass.

As long as your taking the pains to show the Mclean white house and red barn-switch them and you will have the barn to the south of the house as it should be.

You have the Thomson (Thompson-Lee's HQ) buildings on the wrong side of the road. They need to be on the north side. Leave the buildings to the south of the road, as there were buildings there-just not as many. Leave the buildings just to the east of the ridge, they can represent the Dustman farm just fine.

There are further comments on other things, but I will keep them to myself unless invited to discuss them. Believe me when I say that the above is only offered with sincere respect for your hard work and obvious desire to be accurate as possible. As a footnote, some time ago, I did some extensive research on what crops were in what fields at the time of the battle. If any of that would be of value to you feel free to contact me.

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LoS is unbelievable real but should not be confused with fog of war, which is unrealistic and will not be present in UGG. The map will be seen by the player, simulating the fact that generals had detailed maps and thus a good knowledge of the terrain. However player will be able to see the enemy units only after they get inside (the real) units LoS of his army. Sorry for not providing more details, but the imminent first focus test prerequisites that testers should know as less details as possible about the game and its mechanics, for getting a good feed back of their first met with UGG game play.

 

@ Gwack

 

Thanks for the info. All comments have a value for us so feel free to start your own thread about battlefield (or any other aspect about Gettysburg). Except the game support, we aim to make this forum cover in details all fields of this historical battle.

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Clinch,

UGG looks like a great battlefield engine; and would be greater if it allows more flexibility than refighting Gettysburg 20 times. Even great games against new gamers get old.

Maps of the Civil War period varied tremendously (Same was true in WWII...). Local knowledge was essential to fill in map details. Hostile locals reduced intelligence significantly. The precision of maps, population sentiment, and recon all had an impact on C2 decisions. Sickles decision to move his Corps forward at Gettysburg was based on faulty perception of the line he was defending. He moved forward to "higher ground" and his Corps was decimated. If his maps were so accurate why did he sacrifice his Corps?

Sherman at Chattanooga attacked a hill that he believed was part of Missionary Ridge. It wasn't until he had taken the hill that he realized that he couldn't get his troops off the hill and over the ridge he was suppose to take. Note that Sherman had been in Chattanooga with maps for a couple of weeks to plan the attack; but couldn't correctly interpret the lay of the land from telescope or maps.

This was much more the rule than the exception during the Civil War; ravines, fords, deep brush all impact combat/movement to an extent that is not obvious until you walk the land. Custer at Bull Run rode his horse into the run to show his general how deep the water was and that it could be crossed at all points immediately. Despite this intelligence Union troops continued to march to the bridge and cross. Antietam is another great example of a battle where the maps from both sides were good; but, the casualties were extraordinary because the lay of the land allowed troops to close to point blank range by following the topography for cover. Note that the topography of the battlefield had to be studied in the last 20 years to understand why the casualties were so high. Topography is tricky.

You've clicked into the idea - only I think of this as quasi-random map generator.

It would be great to have a game engine that could be tied to Campaign software. AGEODs is a good example of a strategic game with a terrible battle interface.

It would be great to have the flexibility to link UGG battles in a campaign engine.

When a battle occurs I'd like to reference historical maps or even fill in details with Google earth to zoom into my battlefield topography.

The Battlefield series, for example, had a project that tried to do something like this for the Napoleonic Wars. Gamers were able to build maps etc. The game had no campaign interface; so the result was a series of battles that really didn't have much context.

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In the spirit of responding to your request for comments and imput, may I offer the following. The map is beautiful and shows a tremendous amount of care and work. So in view that you obviously want to be as accurate as the design tools and game-needs allow-let me to point out a few adjustments needed.

 

 

Hello Gwack. 

 

We will post the full map for review within next couple of weeks and would love to hear your comments and changes and suggestions in private. Keep in mind please that we have used "congress map" for the positions of objects, farms etc and other sources sometimes provide conflicting views on where things were positioned. But of course most blatant mistakes could be fixed before the release if we still have time. 

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Hello everybody,

 

First of all, I would like to congratulate Game-Labs for showing their work!!! :)

Excelent work so far I must say, but I haven't seen anywhere how will this work?

So I'll be a little bold and ask you this to provide us as a hint; will it be like the Total War games style, like the Omerta: City of Gangsters style or like a real time strategy game? Like zoom in and out?

 

I know it's too soon for this but I'm so excited that Darth is involved and I prefer realism in games in general when it comes with the best AI!!!

 

Regards!

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Its a very interesting and appealing style, quite unusual. It reminds me a lot of my old miniatures wargames table on which I used 5mm troops.

 

Will the buildings give defensive bonuses, or will there be ability to occupy them?

 

At the scale of the map shown it looks to be too large a scale for stone walls to be shown; what are your plans to show the important walls such as The Angle and the wall west of the Maclean Farm on Oak Ridge where Rodes division was so badly cut up on the afternoon of the first day?

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Thank you a lot for your comments and your indications for corrections. All noted and many will be implemented according to our resources for development time and importance.

 

As for map how will zoom in/out... yes it will zoom in/out, soon we start a Focus Testing and a small first group of community testers will be able to see how it works in gameplay. 
More info asap and later.

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Thoughts on the stunning Gettysburg map:

The rock walls on the battlefield played a key role in defensive positions.  It would be great if these man made defensive positions were included on the map.  

 

One of the challenges will be positioning troops on the map to take optimal tactical advantage of the terrain features.  For example, if I want my troops on the military crest of the hill (defense) vs. the topographical crest (observation), vs. the reverse slope (stealth/surprise/safety) to keep them out of sight or out of cannon range how can I tell when I've got them in the desired position?  

 

Historically regimental officers served this role to ensure troop dispositions conformed with orders.  The Colonel would scope out the ground then deploy appropriately.  Longstreet's orders to keep his troops out of sight caused hours of delay in getting his Corps in position at Gettysburg.  

 

Terrain is a fantastic opportunity for game innovation.  If the terrain had designations when I was giving commands I could select how my troops would deploy upon arrival at destination.  

Example:

I click and drag a command to Culp's Hill.  As the cursor hovers over Culp's Hill the map highlights "attack" if the position is enemy occupied.  If the terrain is unoccupied then I get the choice of "defense", "observation", or "stealth".  When my troops reach the destination they deploy according to my orders.  If the troops encounter opposition they fight according to their move orders. Units moving should be under orders to assault, attack, probe, or fall back engaged.

 

This combination of how aggressively to move to location plus how to deploy upon arrival comes very close to civil war regimental orders.  My suspicion is that this can be creatively accomplished in a click and drag format.  Famously it was Lee's order to Ewell to take Culp's Hill, "if practical" that established the Union defensive positions.  Had Ewell been ordered to take the hill "at all hazard" the Union defensive positions at Gettysburg might have been shattered late on Day 1.

 

If any of you enthusiasts have implementation thoughts it would be interesting to see you ideas on how troops should interface with the map terrain.

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Some characteristic stone walls are already added into the map (Cemetery Hill and Oak Ridge).
About the benefits of terrain and interaction with it, this is made dynamically and simply, I hope soon we can reveal how the game plays. Every pixel of the map plays role, gives benefits and penalties to units with interpolation so naturally you and the AI will gain the advantage or disadvantage without the need of  extra options and buttons.

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Nick it sounds great that every pixel on the map plays a role. I'm looking forward to see how to optimally deploy units for my tactical intent without micromanagement of precise unit placement on this or that pixel.  

 

I'll trust that you've got the implementation figured out and it will be clear when I've got my troops in reserve on the reverse slope and out of harm's way.

 

Really looking forward to more information.

 

Keep up the great work.

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===Comment / Reaction===

 

- When I look at it at first, it looks great actually. The whole unit cards and the terrain of this map looks great! But there is something bugging me actually... First most importantly, is the type of terrains you need to add up. And second is the historical accuracy of the map. (In the Opinions.)

- Even though I know it's impossible to get the exact map at that time of the year. Somehow the map looked quite good. But of course there are still some important features that were missing for now.

 

===Opinions / Suggestions===

 

- When you look at the map it looks great. But there are some terrains that were missing. From Cliffs, swamps, creek, to rocky type of terrains. Here is a photo taken in one of the battles of Gettysburg at "Little Round Top" photographed by Timothy H. O'Sullivan.

LittleRoundTop.jpg

- This one of the most important type of terrains that should be present in the map. That can provide extra cover, yet slower to move within it.

- Different kinds of trees or river should be present. Depending on how much the current of the rivers are strong enough, to slow your men down. While the depending kind of tree, will provide better cover.

- Buildings should be changed also can be use as cover. Like the game called "Company of Heroes 2" buildings can be used as shelters to provide cover from enemy artilery, snipers or gun fire. This will and can also help greatly improve the tactics of the game.

- As far as I know.. The whole Gettysburg map isn't actually fully covered with grass. Since it's also covers with different kind of terrains.

- Remember, not only a simple hill, simple cliff, simple trees or river should be present. Depending on how much complex and interesting the game is, makes the game better. [somehow reminds me of a mod I made for Shogun 2..]

- Terrain played an important role in the Battle of Gettysberg. It was also stated and recorded in the history. Even though I don't know much of the geography or terrain of Gettysburg or America. I'm sure that I'm right on this one, after I've researched these things. I do hope you would reconsider this, just like from your previous works in DarthMod. :)

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