Post Wipe : Resource Rethink

[Ravern]

The 2 live oak ports currently available are hardly fought over often, having more will make it even less likely.  It looks more like a case of not having access to it after the wipe, either because of no more alliances or changing nation that isn't British or US so want more available.

 

[Sir Texas Sir]

Though as per wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_oak

The name live oak comes from the fact that evergreen oaks remain green and "live" throughout winter, when other oaks are dormant and leafless. The name is used mainly in North America, where evergreen oaks are widespread in warmer areas along the Atlantic coast from southeast Virginia to Florida, west along the Gulf Coast to Louisiana and Mexico, and across the southwest to California and southwest Oregon.

I would say put in at least one in Florida Occidental (lineship) regional speed bonus or Apalache (shallow) no regional bonus Nuevo Santandor (4th rate) Regional Strong Rig Bonus.

That is three more ports to think of adding it for a total of 5.   This will give more reason for folks to fight over the Gulf of Mexico.  Eve if you just add two (I would say Forida Occidental and Nuevo Santandor that would be two more than we have more and they would be more spread out.

 

That will give you 4 area.  With 8 nations than that means you have only 4 nations in control so some one will be fighting over one or two of them most the time or just trading with another nation to get it.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Sir Texas Sir

[Rouleur]

I don't think it matters how nations can get hold of key resources only that its possible and not overly onerous. 

What is clear is that some regional builds have greater utility than others in particular circumstances, as does the type of wood. Port battles are dominated by live oak and strong hull. In the OW frigates tend to be more speed orientated - cedar and mahogany with differing regional builds - crafted traders generally made for speed. I like the regional build system and there will always be optimal choices for particular tasks. The idea we can move the materials for regional builds to any port where we craft makes a lot of sense. Obviously we need to get the resources to build and the difficulty should incentivise controlling the ports with them, so we fight over strategic resources, but not exclude a nation from building any bespoke ships at all.

[NavalActionPlayer]

+1

[Chetamista Noud]

I think it will depend heavily on what balances the devs have for the wipe, and this thread is just an attempt to bring this thought to the attention of the devs.  Rare resources should possibility be more prevalent, or at least more spread out than they are.  

[Teutonic]

In agreement with this, a re-balance of rare resources around the map would greatly help the big rift that currently causes the alliance blocs and who "continues" to play vs who stops playing all together.

[LeBoiteux]

Rare ports with a strategic ressource + tow request = tremendous avantage to the more powerful nations that can safely pile strategic ships in a given outpost  + focused RvR on those strategic ports

Rare ports with a strategic ressource without tow request = considerable OW travel time (to distribue the ressource or the ships made out of it all over the map where needed) + Live Oak ships and traders transporting Live Oak might be more vulnerable in OW

Edited April 2, 2017 by LeBoiteux

[monk33y]

With ports and resources could we not get a maximum lease of production builds, say 30 days! After that time port stops you from building there for 30 days. This would force players to move production around. Like it was stated before, ore runs low or plantation needs regrow time. If port Is conquered then the timers reset.

Simple system where say silver mines in other regions gain more importance than just the one closest to your capital 

[Remus]

Gosh, you like things easy, don't you?

For a resource to be rare, it has to be ... well ...rare. Do you want all resources to be available in KPR or Charleston?

With two ports, it is quite likely all live oak will end up the same nation's hands, it being unusual to have equally matched nations, and with current placement the US have a geographical advantage. But what if there were three, four, six or ten live oak ports? Would US (I'll assume for the moment that US is the dominant force on the server) be happy with just their two LO ports? Of course not! They don't need to conquer ports to get more LO for their own use, but they'll want to deprive other nations of the resource. And if they are dominant, they'll get the ports. What do the other nations do then?

There are some counters to this: for example a couple of LO ports in the Antilles will be difficult for US to attack so far from home, but if one of the other nations is dominant this won't help so much. But however many LO ports there are (assuming they are few enough for LO to remain 'rare'), how many do you think the Dutch might be able to keep hold of?

I see the following:

1. For any rare resource, it may be assumed that in time it will all be captured by the dominant nation, and small nations won't get a look in at all.
2. The most likely reason a rare resource remains in the hands of a lesser nation is because of an informal alliance
3. If live oak gives and advantage in port battles, and if only one nation can make live oak ships, then that nation's dominance will be reinforced

Therefore, for gameplay reasons, it is vital that other nations can obtain resources they do not own, and I would concentrate my attentions on the mechanisms for this before looking at how many live oak ports there should be and where they should be placed.

We already have a few mechanisms for distributing resources between nations, and I can think of a couple of others:

• Sail up to the port with smuggler flag and buy from the shop. But seeding resources in the shop is likely to be turned off, so the only resources on sale will either have been previously sold anonymously by crafters, which would be hopelessly uneconomical for them to do, or would have been listed by crafters with their name against the listing, something which might not go down too well with the nation's leaders.
• Attack trade ships (NPC or player) leaving the port, and hope they are carrying the rare cargo. In the case of the current live oak ports, attacking ships coming into St Marys is probably just as effective. There has to be a mechanism whereby the attacker can keep the cargo, and while I don't really like the idea of using fleet ship holds for long OW voyages, it does make sense to be able to add a ship including its cargo to your fleet when exiting battle. While I'd love to say you should only be able to exit to OW not the nearest friendly port, the different battle and OW speeds/timescales don't make this practicable. But exiting to nearest friendly port will most likely dump you in the free port you wanted to go to anyway, or (since there are no alliances) a port of your own nation where you may well have an outpost and be safe. I don't think the attacker should be entirely safe from reprisals, but should have more of a chance than exiting to OW currently allows.
• Players in the rare resource port's nation can ship the resource out for listing in foreign shops at a handsome profit, where they can hope their name won't get passed back to their own nation's leaders. This may well be attractive gameplay for some and in my opinion is perfectly legitimate (it is only cross-teaming if you play alts on different nations; here I am thinking of a single player without alts, whose motive is profit). Elsewhere a reputation system has been talked about. This sort of behaviour might lower rep with your own nation but would certainly gain it with the nation you sell to.
• If there is a reputation system with different nations, then some players might be able to gain rep with the port owning nation enough to set up buildings in the rare resource port. They'll still have to ship the goods out though ...

Anyway, I hope this adds a little more food for thought than merely crying for more resources with less sailing to get them.

[Remus]

1 hour ago, monk33y said:

With ports and resources could we not get a maximum lease of production builds, say 30 days! After that time port stops you from building there for 30 days. This would force players to move production around. Like it was stated before, ore runs low or plantation needs regrow time. If port Is conquered then the timers reset.

Simple system where say silver mines in other regions gain more importance than just the one closest to your capital 

Limiting production in a port is good. Maximum leases might be a way to go about it, but I don't like the idea of a port that the current holding nation current use suddenly becoming viable if it gets conquered.

I favour a percentage modifier on building capacities depending on how much resource has been extracted in the previous month (say), applicable to everyone farming that resource in the port and recalculated at the same time each week (say), perhaps Monday's maintenance.

[Cmdr RideZ]

6-8 spread nicely, so that everyone has access to those, does not make something to be rare at all.

Trading and smuggling should be part of this game.  You trade with different nations to get some rare materials that you do not have.  Or smuggle the stuff.

Yes, I am against the idea that everyone has access to everything.  US will be the LO area.  The rest have to fight there, or trade/smuggle -> Rare.

But, every nation should have something rare next to them, that would be equally good as LO.

 

edit.

This can be difficult if our numbers are low.  As then we do not have enough trade/smuggling/alts to keep us going.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Cmdr RideZ

[Advocate Gaming]

Completely agree with this.

[Serk]

We need Live Oak in Louisiana too ^^

[JobaSet]

I am sorry but this is well nuts,  I do not agree with my other clan members on this at all, 2 ports on the east coast is fine. To many ways to get it even if you don't have the port. And sailing into them under smuggler, Capturing traders are only 2, there are plenty more ways to get what you need to build a live oak boat even faster.

[Elric]

1 hour ago, JobaSet said:

I am sorry but this is well nuts,  I do not agree with my other clan members on this at all, 2 ports on the east coast is fine. To many ways to get it even if you don't have the port. And sailing into them under smuggler, Capturing traders are only 2, there are plenty more ways to get what you need to build a live oak boat even faster.

that's OK if you have outposts in the area.  Most small nations are not that close to the LO ports -- and you can only smuggle if there is some LO to buy! -  There will be very little chance of that in the first month after the wipe.  Will there be USA traders carrying LO?  Maybe not.  With shipyards coming back, why would the nations controlling the 2 LO ports setup shipyards anywhere else?  

Similar situation with Mahogany.  The small nations will not start with this resource being available to them.  So should we only build Oak ships and get crushed in even battles?

Nations like Sweden and Denmark will likely start with NO region that generates any significant tradable resource.  France may be in better shape, but not significantly. 

ONLY players with alts can get around this...

Currently LO is too dominant a wood in PB's - so....  maybe it needs to be nerfed a little to stop it being so critical. 

Edited April 2, 2017 by ElricTheTwo

[JobaSet]

10 minutes ago, ElricTheTwo said:

that's OK if you have outposts in the area.  Most small nations are not that close to the LO ports -- and you can only smuggle if there is some LO to buy! -  There will be very little chance of that in the first month after the wipe.  Will there be USA traders carrying LO?  Maybe not.  With shipyards coming back, why would the nations controlling the 2 LO ports setup shipyards anywhere else?  

Nations like Sweden and Denmark will likely start with NO region that generates any significant tradable resource.  France may be in better shape, but not significantly. 

ONLY players with alts can get around this... 

This may be true on pvp1, but on pvp2 the brits and US maybe have 1 in 10 port battle ships are built like they should be., it is why the pirates more or less kill them every time even when they are out numbered.

Buying LO is not the only way to get what you need. I forget the port on french side I pm u next time i get in game.

 

 

Edited April 2, 2017 by JobaSet

[Elric]

2 minutes ago, JobaSet said:

This may be true on pvp1, but on pvp2 the brits and US maybe have 1 in 10 port battle ships are built like they should be., it is why the pirates more or less kill them every time even when they are out numbered.

Buying LO is not the only way to get what you need.

 

the number of garbage redeemable ships will drop dramatically - players will have to buy or make what they want to use.  Yes, you can cap and break up ships - been there and done that many times - but the issue is really more than just LO, add mahogany, possibly silver - and - with the small nations not being allied, you have to set contracts in ports - and the richer nations will again dominate.  You will ONLY be able to setup buildings in your own regions.  Please remember back to the starting map - Sweden and Denmark start with just the capital regions - they have nothing of consequence to use for trade - no LO, no Mahogany, No silver, no copper - and where they start on the map, they are far away from likely capture regions (aka Spanish regions).

[Teutonic]

I think Joba from my PoV, you're still seeing it as the game is now, not when the wipe happens and everyone gets reset to the starting line.

To also take into account the pvp1 players coming to the global server, their mindset is that live oak is king. You said it yourself, the US on pvp2 right now doesn't always have live oak ships, no wonder BLACK crushes them...mayne because you all do?

If there are only two ports this is how it will go down

1. Whoever is more dominant a popilation will be able to control them

2. Admins reported they want to get rid of smuggler flag, so you lose that possibility of gathering the resource...and it's a terrible way to do so anyway

3. I would be surprised if you think you can sustain a live oak supply just theough raiding traders. Currently on the test server and next patch you will not be able to send your fleet/captured ships back to port after a battle, you will have to sail them. Meaning you then have a damaged trade ship holding your live oak loot to which the opposing nation will have been notified and attwmpt to capture it back.

4. Relying on alts to get it for you is also a terrible way to supply yourself. You must see it from an individual player who doesn't have alts and is at the mercy of what the nation he is in can provide.

5. Mahogany is "live oak light" but it fails spectacularly against a full live oak fleet. And it is not anviable alternative in the long term. Hands down a live oak fleet will beat any opposing fleet if it's not live oak.

If live oak stays in 2 ports, 2 nations maximum will hold it. The 6 other nations are left to dry and would never be able to fight back on an even playing ground. 

 

It's the same as Bermuda Cedar, although due to the distance away from everything it's less drastic. There is absolutely no reason to ever sail a fir ship, when bermuda has the same bonus with no drawbacks. 

And to go slightly off topic, it's the same as regional bonuses, there are some that are just laughable and others that if you don't have it (strong hull) you may as well not even consider competing in any RvR or PvP. 

[Nikodemus]

The server Health was much better when you had a wide range of resources spreed across the map. If we want to limit the amount cut down on how much each person can produce. Sure the larger nations will still make ships faster but they will have more people to put into ships. Smaller Nations while making them slower will not need to produce as many. If you want to have rare Items make them cosmetic and not game breaking so a dedicated craftier, have something to do like paints and sail color's ect. 

[Sir Texas Sir]

2 hours ago, Teutonic said:

I think Joba from my PoV, you're still seeing it as the game is now, not when the wipe happens and everyone gets reset to the starting line.

To also take into account the pvp1 players coming to the global server, their mindset is that live oak is king. You said it yourself, the US on pvp2 right now doesn't always have live oak ships, no wonder BLACK crushes them...mayne because you all do? Well I heard my LO Stiffness Hull Aggy was a hack ship (they called it Ironwood ship) and that my supper cannons where hacks.  Which was just double charge and ball used when I was broad side with some one.  That and the simple thing of angle your ship at the last moment to bounce shots.  So yah they do make a big difference in battles bring the best ships when the other team is not bring the same ships.

If there are only two ports this is how it will go down

1. Whoever is more dominant a population will be able to control them This comes from our meeting and we know that US and Brits will have the most population and will prob control those two regions.  Brits taking the Spanish region and the US holding theirs.  We brought this topic up in the meeting cause this means all the other nations will not have the option to get LO unless they trade with one of these two nations and you just won't even see any fighting over with the numbers difference.

2. Admins reported they want to get rid of smuggler flag, so you lose that possibility of gathering the resource...and it's a terrible way to do so anyway I don't think it's going away I think it's coming back as it was back when we had green on green.  You put on the flag and some one can attack you and it becomes a Pirate Free For All.  This is cause of a comment the Devs made about the flag and PvE zone.  I have not tested it on testbed, but would prob be the way they get it around the not having alliance and such.  make it risky to have the flag.

3. I would be surprised if you think you can sustain a live oak supply just through raiding traders. Currently on the test server and next patch you will not be able to send your fleet/captured ships back to port after a battle, you will have to sail them. Meaning you then have a damaged trade ship holding your live oak loot to which the opposing nation will have been notified and attempt to capture it back. With the bring back ship yards your point of them making ships in these areas mean that you will hardly see any traders with them and these will be highly populated areas of those nations ships prob (players).

4. Relying on alts to get it for you is also a terrible way to supply yourself. You must see it from an individual player who doesn't have alts and is at the mercy of what the nation he is in can provide. At the meeting it was very clear we don't take into account any alts and make anything as if every one has one player for this reason.  Not every one has them.

5. Mahogany is "live oak light" but it fails spectacularly against a full live oak fleet. And it is not anviable alternative in the long term. Hands down a live oak fleet will beat any opposing fleet if it's not live oak. Me personally I would be going after this instead as I like it better and I just can't see the pirates rushing off to do RvR or any one else in 1st rates very fast at the start.  I think a lot of the fights at first will be a mix of ships and makes until folks get there crafting and econ up and going.

If live oak stays in 2 ports, 2 nations maximum will hold it. The 6 other nations are left to dry and would never be able to fight back on an even playing ground. 

As my post above I think 2-3 more ports in the Gulf area would be good to spread it out and allow one or more nations to have means to get it other than the top two.   Could one of those two nations take them too?  Yes they can and that is part of the game, but give us an option to have it in another spot than that one spot.

It's the same as Bermuda Cedar, although due to the distance away from everything it's less drastic. There is absolutely no reason to ever sail a fir ship, when bermuda has the same bonus with no drawbacks. I was really surprised this wasn't brought up, but in the meeting it seemed they cared more about the RvR side of the game and not the PvP.   I'll be honest I got majority of mine form just breaking down ships and getting the frame parts from doing that.

And to go slightly off topic, it's the same as regional bonuses, there are some that are just laughable and others that if you don't have it (strong hull) you may as well not even consider competing in any RvR or PvP. I'll be honest I think any region that has a rare source of materiel shouldn't have a major or even mid level regional bonus.   This is why I left Louisianan off my list since it has French Refit.  They can tweek the regions around a little to make it so it's more like this.

Yah I don't think 6-8 regions would be good, just 2-3 more would would help out a lot.  Still now sure about Cedar though.  Than again I think that might be something some smart traders will haul to a lot of the free ports and make a killing off of.

[Sir Texas Sir]

10 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Do you know how this problem has been introduced (pvp1) or aggravated (pvp2)?

Say thanks to the devs for switching off alliances.  Now EACH nation will need its own port with live oak close to the capital. One strategical ressource that promotes fighting over a region, gone.

NO you need a few more so folks can fight over and they shouldn't be close to the capital for the most part.  We don't every thing crafted at the capital cause than traders will never get out and about for the PvP guys to hunt.  We just need more than one or two means to get things.  Key resources like this should never have been locked down to one or two ports.

[Corona Lisa]

22 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Say thanks to the devs for switching off alliances.  Now EACH nation will need its own port with live oak close to the capital. One strategical ressource that promotes fighting over a region, gone.

Or they just learn how to deal with not having every resource for a cheap price available. Maybe that results in more teamplay within a nation to get important ports or more players joining in and helping.

Its also good to create a dynamic trading system between nations and players and not just useless AI produced goods.

Current RvR is boring because every side has all resources (except LiveOak) available. Pirates have shown that its possible to survive without having silver, copper and live oak ports for months.

If every nation gets its own Liveoak and silver port right in front of the capital then whats the point of capturing ports again?

Edited April 2, 2017 by JonSnowLetsGo

[Elric]

2 minutes ago, JonSnowLetsGo said:

Or they just learn how to deal with not having every resource for a cheap price available. Maybe that results in more teamplay within a nation to get important ports or more players joining in and helping.

Its also good to create a dynamic trading system between nations and players and not just useless AI produced goods.

Current RvR is boring because every side has all resources (except LiveOak) available. Pirates have shown that its possible to survive without having silver, copper and live oak ports for months.

Trading between nations....   hmm...  two nations will control.  No smuggler flag, no alliances to be able to setup outposts and buildings.  Contracts at crazy prices that never get filled...  Until every nation has it's own critically resource unique to it, the trading will be non-existent.  Why would the big nations trade with the small nations?  They don't need to.  All this scarcity does is foster more alts.

[Corona Lisa]

1 minute ago, ElricTheTwo said:

Trading between nations....   hmm...  two nations will control.  No smuggler flag, no alliances to be able to setup outposts and buildings.  Contracts at crazy prices that never get filled...  Until every nation has it's own critically resource unique to it, the trading will be non-existent.  Why would the big nations trade with the small nations?  They don't need to.  All this scarcity does is foster more alts.

Is no smuggler flag confirmed?

No outposts outside of your own territory is good so you actually have to use OW and are at a risk of getting caught in enemy territory. Reward is a high win margin because the players there will pay a lot for a resource they dont own.

I agree, alts are a problem for this and they always will be regarding crafting and trading.

[Kesxex Rofux]

Alternative option (currently not possible with PVE areas not implemented):

Intended "safe" area in Gulf of Mexico can provide access to rare resources. Plus some more across the map to fight over.

Trade off between short distances in PVP areas, long distance from PVE area.