Save the 1st Rates

[Franz Stigler]

So after the Devs revealed they're thinking about taking 1st rates out of the game for some time, me and some others put a lot of thoughts into the whys and hows.

I'm aware that most players love their hard achieved 1st rates and that some are very concerned about seeing them taken from them. The following is a suggestion how to make a change without killing half the playerbase.

 

Problem with 1st rates is, that they are easy to achieve once you get your hands on them. Within a couple of days your friends get them, because you help them cap or just craft. Within a couple of some more days your whole clan get them and finally everyone gets a 1st rate. I don't think flooding 1st rates all over the world is how it should be. 1st rates should set the point after a long and hard career. They are the price for spending lots of time ingame. 

1st rates need to be rare and harder to achieve.

That's how it works:

1. 1st rates are no longer craftable (done)

2. 1st rates are no longer sold in shops, neither by NPC nor Players

3. 1st rates can not be capped.

That's the basics. So now, how to achieve one?

Every player gets a special dock slot. It's the only one they can put a 1st rate in. This slot is bought with the shortly announced admiralty points, by special admiralty missions or is just a rng drop by admiralty. Once you have the slot, you can achieve BPs for 1st rates the same way you achieved the slot. Now that you have a BP you can craft your 1st rate. If you don't like that one you can achieve more BPs till you find your favorite and break the old one up. You can't sell it or give it to anyone, it's yours and bound to your account. The only way to get 'rid' of it ist to either break it up or sink it in battle.

That's where the critic part sits. You're 1st rate can't be captured, but lost in a boarding fight anyway or just sink in battle. Well, no problem just craft a new one? Nope. Someone sunk your 1st rate! You can't just 'craft a new one'! It's for the best Navy Men only. You are not, otherwise it would be still afloat. No one sane would presume you anymore to sail a 1st rate.

That means: you loose your slot, your BPs and your honor. Start from the beginning. Achieve the slot, the BPs and after that you craft a new one. 

Now, 1st rates are rare. Just the way they should be. It's a honor to be allowed to sale them, and it's a shame to loose them.

 

 

Edited March 17, 2017 by Franz Stigler

[Franz Stigler]

Sorry, wasn't finished. Now you can get the point i guess.

[maturin]

Quote

So after the Devs revealed they're thinking about taking 1st rates out of the game for some time

Source?!?

[Franz Stigler]

Didn't your mom teach you to be polite?

[Jean Pual Vilvenue]

2 hours ago, Franz Stigler said:

So after the Devs revealed they're thinking about taking 1st rates out of the game for some time, me and some others put a lot of thoughts into the whys and hows.

I'm aware that most players love their hard achieved 1st rates and that some are very concerned about seeing them taken from them. The following is a suggestion how to make a change without killing half the playerbase.

 

Problem with 1st rates is, that they are easy to achieve once you get your hands on them. Within a couple of days your friends get them, because you help them cap or just craft. Within a couple of some more days your whole clan get them and finally everyone gets a 1st rate. I don't think flooding 1st rates all over the world is how it should be. 1st rates should set the point after a long and hard career. They are the price for spending lots of time ingame. 

1st rates need to be rare and harder to achieve.

That's how it works:

1. 1st rates are no longer craftable (done)

2. 1st rates are no longer sold in shops, neither by NPC nor Players

3. 1st rates can not be capped.

That's the basics. So now, how to achieve one?

Every player gets a special dock slot. It's the only one they can put a 1st rate in. This slot is bought with the shortly announced admiralty points, by special admiralty missions or is just a rng drop by admiralty. Once you have the slot, you can achieve BPs for 1st rates the same way you achieved the slot. Now that you have a BP you can craft your 1st rate. If you don't like that one you can achieve more BPs till you find your favorite and break the old one up. You can't sell it or give it to anyone, it's yours and bound to your account. The only way to get 'rid' of it ist to either break it up or sink it in battle.

That's where the critic part sits. You're 1st rate can't be captured, but lost in a boarding fight anyway or just sink in battle. Well, no problem just craft a new one? Nope. Someone sunk your 1st rate! You can't just 'craft a new one'! It's for the best Navy Men only. You are not, otherwise it would be still afloat. No one sane would presume you anymore to sail a 1st rate.

That means: you loose your slot, your BPs and your honor. Start from the beginning. Achieve the slot, the BPs and after that you craft a new one. 

Now, 1st rates are rare. Just the way they should be. It's a honor to be allowed to sale them, and it's a shame to loose them.

 

 

I will sail what I god damn want... How about we make...

1. 4th rates and below are no longer craftable (done)

2. 4th rates and below are no longer sold in shops, neither by NPC nor Players

3. 4th rates and below can not be capped.

I prefer this idea. Point being the devs should not limit anything to the point where we cannot craft a ship that was once available in the game because people prefer sailing them. Some people always believe bigger is better and you cannot stamp that out of someone.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Jean Pual Vilvenue

[Franz Stigler]

No one will stop you from doing so  You get what you proof to deserve. That's how it worked in reality and that's how it should work ingame

[Sir Texas Sir]

stop spreading rumors they mention they thought about it to test stuff and we joked about makeing it only on the EU server.    Can't the Devs joke once in a while too.   I wouldn't be to worried about folks loosing the chance to be in there SOL's.  

[VirtuallyIdiotic]

13 minutes ago, Franz Stigler said:

 You get what you proof to deserve. That's how it worked in reality and that's how it should work ingame

I am trying to read this and I am assume it is just a language barrier which is alright and understandable. From what you currently have written down that is not true at all. 

[William Death]

26 minutes ago, Franz Stigler said:

No one will stop you from doing so  You get what you proof to deserve. That's how it worked in reality and that's how it should work ingame

Problem with this statement: THIS IS A GAME!!!!!! People can, and should, be able to sail ANYTHING they want to, provided they have the rank and crew to man it (and even if they don't, and are dumb enough to sail a first rate with 200 crew, let them do it: its their game ). I can sail a first rate, I like sailing first rates, I have 7 or 8 of them at any given time: one for every outpost (except shallow water, and a spare). If you want to start limiting what class of ships people can sail "because that's how it was in real life," then lets go for a full-out realistic simulator where you have to wait 6 hours for the tide cycle to leave most any port, about an hour to weigh anchor and get all canvas set and steadied on the proper course, and then days upon days, or even weeks, of sailing in the ocean, never seeing a sail. That sounds like game-population-increasing levels of fun to me. 

In my opinion, if you spent time grinding rank up to get enough crew to sail a first rate, and spend enough time gathering materials to have one crafted, then you deserve a first rate. Too many people in this game cry about first rates being too common and there is no use for smaller ships. How about instead of making it harder than it is already to get a first rate, just change the mechanics of port battles to promote the use of smaller ships. Make some capture zones too shallow to float a first rate there, so if you want to cap it, you need to bring in fifth rates to go there and fight for it. There is your application of frigates in first rate battles. DONE.

Just my $00.02

Edited March 18, 2017 by Willis PVP2
grammatical errors

[VirtuallyIdiotic]

2 minutes ago, Willis PVP2 said:

How about instead of making it harder than it is already to get a first rate.

It is easy to rank up and to get a first rate. Back when I started it took from Commodore to Rear Admiral 160000. Now they halved that. Getting material and a ship built is easy as well. Took new people I knew a week.

[Franz Stigler]

5 minutes ago, Willis PVP2 said:

Problem with this statement: THIS IS A GAME!!!!!! People can, and should, be able to sail ANYTHING they want to, provided they have the rank and crew to man it (and even if they don't, and are dumb enough to sail a first rate with 200 crew, let them do it: its their game ).

So now some of them decide to jump into pb, not able to handle the ship or being any use to their fleet. PBs lost, Ports gone. Congrats  

In my opinion, if you spent time grinding rank up to get enough crew to sail a first rate, and spend enough time gathering materials to have one crafted, then you deserve a first rate.

You can grind up without any hard work by doing low rate combat missions and crafting cutters. Yes, that consumes much more time, but still works and you end up with a undeserved 1st.

Too many people in this game cry about first rates being too common and there is no use for smaller ships. How about instead of making it harder than it is already to get a first rate, just change the mechanics of port battles to promote the use of smaller ships. Make some capture zones too shallow to float a first rate there, so if you want to cap it, you need to bring in fifth rates to go there and fight for it. There is your application of frigates in first rate battles. DONE.

I never claimed my suggestion to be the one and only solution. You have a point, i admit. Thing is: SOMETHING has to be done.

 

[Wesreidau]

I don't think we understand what @admin was communicating, and we should calm down.

~ size reduced for sake of legibility. Please review your signature, using one line links would benefit all  ~ the moderation team

[Franz Stigler]

26 minutes ago, Davos Seasworth said:

I am trying to read this and I am assume it is just a language barrier which is alright and understandable. From what you currently have written down that is not true at all. 

 

12 minutes ago, Davos Seasworth said:

It is easy to rank up and to get a first rate. Back when I started it took from Commodore to Rear Admiral 160000. Now they halved that. Getting material and a ship built is easy as well. Took new people I knew a week.

Actually that's exactly what i am talking about ^^

[Franz Stigler]

4 minutes ago, Wesreidau said:

I don't think we understand what @admin was communicating, and we should calm down.

Well, what I and most others understand: 1st rates are killing frigates, no one cares for them and they are no use in late game. That's not new at all. Even considering to freeze some ships for a certain amount of time shows that something is not going the way it should.

[Wesreidau]

What I'm reading is that they want to give the "midgame" some time to be fully explored before letting us build 1st rates again, come this pre-launch wipe. So we've read totally different things.

[LPurs]

Admin has a very good idea on removing 1st rates! I will support it.

[Franz Stigler]

And what will happen after launch? Except for PvE-Players, who really can decide what they want to sail cause it doesn't matter to them, we'll get to the same point again. Any 5th rate is pointless. You grind through and that's it. 

[Wesreidau]

After launch the ships will all be there to unlock. Frigates were all the rage for months and remain viable for merchant raiding. The primary PvP activity right now is port battles, and that's where 1st rates really shine. Its natural that we'd see a lot of 1st rates. 2nd or 3rd rates might be in port battles if we moved away from the 25 v 25 system into a BR based match-up, but until then, it will just be the way it is. Making all the 1st rates really lousy sailers upwind might be enough to get 2nd rates into the mix. There's just a lot of other ways to balance them out so people prefer a 2nd rate, rather than are unable to take a 1st rate.

[William Death]

1 hour ago, Davos Seasworth said:

It is easy to rank up and to get a first rate. Back when I started it took from Commodore to Rear Admiral 160000. Now they halved that. Getting material and a ship built is easy as well. Took new people I knew a week.

Yeah, they changed the requirements when I was a flag captain, point is, currently anyone can obtain that first rate no real problem other than a time sink (just takes time and effort to get mats together and moved around [hard for casual players who don't want to spend hours sailing around looking for mats and delivering them to a crafter]). Lets say you grind and get the rank and mats to have a first rate, I, your friendly neighborhood pirate, can take that first rate from you no problem, because you have not spent time learning how to sail and fight properly. I see no problem with this system. You get your stuff, you get a ship, you don't know how to sail the ship, thats your problem.

Is it hard for a dedicated player/pvper/fighter to make a first rate? No. I can make multiple first rates in a day with my stockpile of mats and labor contracts. If you don't have that stuff, and have to buy resources and build everything, it is almost a week's crafting hours for a first rate. People forget that because it is so easy to get materials with this system.

1 hour ago, Franz Stigler said:

Willis PVP2 said:

Problem with this statement: THIS IS A GAME!!!!!! People can, and should, be able to sail ANYTHING they want to, provided they have the rank and crew to man it (and even if they don't, and are dumb enough to sail a first rate with 200 crew, let them do it: its their game ).

So now some of them decide to jump into pb, not able to handle the ship or being any use to their fleet. PBs lost, Ports gone. Congrats  

That is the responsibility of the defenders/attackers to deal with. Don't want noobs in there? Get hostility points so you get in before they do. Everyone struggles with this in this game: unskilled players get in battles and take up space that could be occupied by a player with plenty of skill. 

In my opinion, if you spent time grinding rank up to get enough crew to sail a first rate, and spend enough time gathering materials to have one crafted, then you deserve a first rate.

You can grind up without any hard work by doing low rate combat missions and crafting cutters. Yes, that consumes much more time, but still works and you end up with a undeserved 1st.

If your whole goal in this game is to be max rank and level fifty you are missing something. If all you do is low rate combat missions and craft cutters till you get a first rate, you deserve that first rate for spending hundreds of hours doing the most boring things possible in this game   Once again though, you get that first rate, you won't know how to sail it or fight it, not my problem though, that is the skipper's problem, he has two options: 1. go do a ton of missions appropriate to his rank till he can fight and sail properly; or, 2. get in a pvp fight where any seasoned Bellona captain can take away his first rate.

Too many people in this game cry about first rates being too common and there is no use for smaller ships. How about instead of making it harder than it is already to get a first rate, just change the mechanics of port battles to promote the use of smaller ships. Make some capture zones too shallow to float a first rate there, so if you want to cap it, you need to bring in fifth rates to go there and fight for it. There is your application of frigates in first rate battles. DONE.

I never claimed my suggestion to be the one and only solution. You have a point, i admit. Thing is: SOMETHING has to be done.

Why does something have to be done? Are we wanting a simulator or a game? See my point above. Why is there a problem with all max rank players having and sailing some first rates? They can only sail one ship at a time, if they want to sail a first rate, let them! Its their game, they found a way to get the ship and the rank to crew it (hopefully).  If everyone is sailing a first rate because first rates are supposedly "better" in every situation than other ships, then there needs to be a designed use for other ships to promote sailing them (shallow cap zones, open world pvp, etc).

Your suggestion promotes grinding missions or whatever grind there is to get Admiralty points to get a first rate slot and a BP. So, here is what happens then: many PVP players will grind away to get a first rate, because first rates are better than second rates in a first rate port battle (guns and toughness, a Buc will never beat the Santi in a broadside slugfest); and PVP players will refuse to sail lesser gear into a first rate fight if they want the best chance to win. In the end we will be at the same place we are now: the guys who want to be really good at PVP will always have the best gear they can get their hands on, be able to sail any ship competently, and have gear advantages over people who don't grind to get these things. 

I'm open to testing things, but adding in more and more grinding to this game is not the answer to any problem, it just widens the gulf between those who grind and those who don't.

[JollyRoger1516]

7 hours ago, Willis PVP2 said:

"because that's how it was in real life,"

I don't even know why people keep coming up with this crappy statement int he first place. @Snoopy has already more then once shown that the Royal Navy employed nearly equal numbers of SOLs and frigates. While the Caribbean was somewhat void of most of them there are actually only 3 reasons for this.

1. The war was primarily in Europe (against Napoleon at least). That meant that the big ships were needed in the home waters as due to their longer travel times they required a long term deployment strategy.
2. Due to the reefs and weird shallows near a lot of ports in the Caribbean SOLs had to choose their locations very carefully. Also the traders were often in the shallower department due to this therefore making big ships unsuited to hunt them - thats the main reason frigates were deployed so much in that region. Wars in India often saw several SOLs simply blockading the ports which was less possible in the West Indies.
3. As the enemy had similar ideas and didn't bring the really big ships into the West Indies there was no need to have gigantic ships patrol the area.

But for all you guys who constantly say that the area was void of SOLs - Havana alone was one of the biggest SOL producing ports of its time (La Nuestra Señora de la Santissima Trinidad) and regularly deployed SOLs around its waters for sea trials alone but also for some engagements!!!

The answers to people's SOL problem are two:

1. Suck it up nancy!
2. Devs - don't ruin the SOL's/make them even ahrder to get (you'd just lose more of your playerbase) just make the port battles more about the smaller ships. SOLs did blockading and deploying troops but they rarely ever went close enough to ports to come under direct fire which the faster ships were much better at outrunning. Currently the main problem is that the meta of most important ports simply forces you into a first rate so therefore everybody has/needs one.

[Rebel Witch]

perhaps the only solution to the "too many SOL's" problem is to put a "maintenance fee" on SOL's.

they already tried making them harder and more expensive to build, that wont solve the problem, it will just take longer until everyone is in 1st rates.

they have floated the idea of putting limits on SOL's in port battles but that doesnt solve the steady saturation of SOL's sailing around.

Perhaps the only solution is to either

1. make SOL's exclusive to clan ownership and each clan can only have a certain amount of them?

2. slap a MX fee on 1st, 2nd, 3rd rates. Lets say 3rd rates cost 100,000 gold a month. 2nd rates cost 500,000 gold a month, 1st rates cost 1mil gold a month. that way only the filthy rich can afford them but not even the filthy rich can hoard them . it would also mean clans may have to pool money just to have a SOL fleet.

it is historical to the period too that SOL's cost so much to maintain that only the largest navies could afford them and even then they were often put in ordinary when not at war.

 

me thinks this is a subject that will be going on for many years in naval action

Edited March 18, 2017 by Rebel Witch

[captain pips]

what about putting a br limit on pb,so that each side can decide,if they want to fight with for example 6 1 rates against 12 smaller ships.that would make pb much more interesting and create historical atmosphere.24 first rates plus perhaps 1 mortar brig against exactly the same fleet is not what i expect from a historical sim.

that would end this biggerisbetter mentality and give a meaning to support ships like it was 200 years ago.more than that it would give specialized captains on smaller ships the chance to participate.

 

Edited March 18, 2017 by captain pips

[Fargo]

2 hours ago, Rebel Witch said:

they already tried making them harder and more expensive to build, that wont solve the problem, it will just take longer until everyone is in 1st rates.

Expensive 1st rates could solve the problem, but ofcourse only when you wipe the existing first rate meta. E.g. assumed that 1000 total players sink 80 port battle ships each day, its simple math to set the cost so that players are not able to keep up full first rate supply with the amount of LH availiable.

Another solution is to change the rank distribution that depends on XP gain, total XP and average total playtime. If you need on average 50 hours for max rank, but the average NA player plays about 300 total hours, about 85% would play on max rank at any time. Change it back to 100 hours and it becomes 65%.

No need for artificial limitations.

[Koltes]

19 hours ago, Franz Stigler said:

So after the Devs revealed they're thinking about taking 1st rates out of the game for some time, me and some others put a lot of thoughts into the whys and hows.

I'm aware that most players love their hard achieved 1st rates and that some are very concerned about seeing them taken from them. The following is a suggestion how to make a change without killing half the playerbase.

 

Problem with 1st rates is, that they are easy to achieve once you get your hands on them. Within a couple of days your friends get them, because you help them cap or just craft. Within a couple of some more days your whole clan get them and finally everyone gets a 1st rate. I don't think flooding 1st rates all over the world is how it should be. 1st rates should set the point after a long and hard career. They are the price for spending lots of time ingame. 

1st rates need to be rare and harder to achieve.

That's how it works:

1. 1st rates are no longer craftable (done)

2. 1st rates are no longer sold in shops, neither by NPC nor Players

3. 1st rates can not be capped.

That's the basics. So now, how to achieve one?

Every player gets a special dock slot. It's the only one they can put a 1st rate in. This slot is bought with the shortly announced admiralty points, by special admiralty missions or is just a rng drop by admiralty. Once you have the slot, you can achieve BPs for 1st rates the same way you achieved the slot. Now that you have a BP you can craft your 1st rate. If you don't like that one you can achieve more BPs till you find your favorite and break the old one up. You can't sell it or give it to anyone, it's yours and bound to your account. The only way to get 'rid' of it ist to either break it up or sink it in battle.

That's where the critic part sits. You're 1st rate can't be captured, but lost in a boarding fight anyway or just sink in battle. Well, no problem just craft a new one? Nope. Someone sunk your 1st rate! You can't just 'craft a new one'! It's for the best Navy Men only. You are not, otherwise it would be still afloat. No one sane would presume you anymore to sail a 1st rate.

That means: you loose your slot, your BPs and your honor. Start from the beginning. Achieve the slot, the BPs and after that you craft a new one. 

Now, 1st rates are rare. Just the way they should be. It's a honor to be allowed to sale them, and it's a shame to loose them.

 

 

We have 1 port battle. One side lost 25 1st rates.

25 players of that nation lost an ability to sail 1st rates, at least temporary.

War goes on.

Next port battle no one shows up.

Thank you for your input, but there were better solutions offered. No offense