The Nation Head System Idea to OFFSET ALT activates

[Norfolk nChance]

The Nation Head System Idea to OFFSET ALT activates

 

Not sure if this is the right forum. If not my apologies, Dev's please move to the correct ones

The ALTs although I don't object too and don't use, seems to have gone a bit OTT in their activities. The ALT is a much needed part of NA and gives a deeper layer on intrigue.  The well trained ALT listening in adds drama. Sabotage to PBs and Hostility pops is a questionable area but still could work if the game had a realistic OFFSET.

At the moment we don't have that and in the current state of gameplay it will turn bad for the game. The problem is punishment. What do you do when a SPY is caught? At the moment apart from name and shame absolutely nothing. If we are going to allow spies, there needs to be a risk element involved.

Things like the forum Tribunal is a waste of every bodies time including the Dev's.  And to be fair this is more gameplay rather than a Cheat like the Double Ship & Mod fiasco just exposed. Sportsmanship is not a  game requirement remember.

 

However, a solution may arise if each Nation had a PC Figure Head (Pirate might be tricky here). He the representative of his Nation can directly meta out punishment. The coding would I believe not too complicated. It would setup exactly like a clan system. A Clan of Clans plus solo members .He  would be in effect the Nation "Creator" and can kick out a member.

The suspect suddenly finds himself having to pick a new nation and start over. Now whether you agree or disagree with the Figure Head it doesn't matter. If the victim is wrongly accused, well that’s never happened before in real life as it?

The NH system cuts out traffic. Obviously RL game abuses like racism, bullying and DDOS is Games-Labs arena and should go without saying.

How to Pick the Nation Head, or how long should he remain in power could prove interesting if not controversial. I think a set time limit but how is open for debate. The result is a counter that is real to the ALTs however if over abused by the Nation leader he will receive internal  pressures… Despots maybe need an offset also…

 

Just a thought

 

Norfolk nChance

Ps also here there is room to flesh out your spy. Imagine a perk that will allow you to see Ship locations or movements from the last server reset. Example say a SPY looking at GB might see all port entry and exits of every GB ship. Or other ideas could make this a real PC character worth having…

 

Edited March 14, 2017 by Norfolk nChance

[Snoopy]

I'm sorry, but this is one of the worst proposals ever. The keywords are 'still no proof of alt' and 'witch hunt', and "nothing can possibly go wrong with players having the power to ban other players".

[Norfolk nChance]

Snoopy

 

 

I don't think I ever mentioned anybody being banned just kicked of the Nation. Also have re-read my note and can't find "still no proof of alt" and "witch hunt". Sorry you find it the worst proposal ever. Do you have a better suggestion or is the game mechanic all ok and functioning  well as it is...?

thank you for the reply and much appreciated.

 

Norfolk.

 

[Raekur]

To add my 2 cents to the debate. First, it should not be the power of just one person to be able to force someone to switch nations, it should be a panel of 3 people at least. How to get on the panel, that part might be simpler then most would think but will require a little coding to add clan age. This determines which clan leader is appointed to the council and receives 1 vote towards council actions. The vote can be either Yes, No or Abstain( mostly used to avoid ties or for those who are absent). Appoint may be something along the lines of the oldest 3 or 5 clans within a nation. No system that can be put into place is immune to being abused or exploited, so hopefully there are enough players who actually possess some integrity that will prevent the game from becoming a complete waste of time due to a few who lack the ability to actually play without cheating every chance they get.

[Anolytic]

Giving any individual player(s) formialised power in the game, and particularly when that power is over other players, is an extremely bad idea. "Diplomats" and other positions should remain firmly in the meta to this game. The politics mechanics implemented have already gone too far in the wrong direction to begin with. We asked for them, but turns out it was a bad idea.

[Sir Texas Sir]

46 minutes ago, Raekur said:

To add my 2 cents to the debate. First, it should not be the power of just one person to be able to force someone to switch nations, it should be a panel of 3 people at least. How to get on the panel, that part might be simpler then most would think but will require a little coding to add clan age. This determines which clan leader is appointed to the council and receives 1 vote towards council actions. The vote can be either Yes, No or Abstain( mostly used to avoid ties or for those who are absent). Appoint may be something along the lines of the oldest 3 or 5 clans within a nation. No system that can be put into place is immune to being abused or exploited, so hopefully there are enough players who actually possess some integrity that will prevent the game from becoming a complete waste of time due to a few who lack the ability to actually play without cheating every chance they get.

Most of the nations can't even get three clans to work together half the time how you think they are going to get three clan leaders?  This is so open for abuse to cause it will be the same three leaders prob over and over over and I bet they will push around little guys that don't agree with there views.    Remember when folks say 150 players on line they forget that is on line at the current moment. There is 1000's that play this game on both servers.  We only see a part of those players.  It's more on PvP1 than PvP2.    We prob have over 10K players to be honest counting both servers but we only see any where from 100-1K at a time not counting actual alts on either server.  believe me the single players prob out number the guys with alts 100 to 1.   

 

If some one is breaking the rules we have means to report it in the forums and in game so use those.  Other wise folks need to worry more about the inter clan relationships of there own dang nation and clans and stop worrying about spy's and alts.  Hell half the folks ya'll think are alts are just some players.  The Alts you know that are public are so public it's hard to say they are spying.  It's the guys you don't know about that are the good spy's and I bet you just about every nation has a few players with mutil alts and I promise you they aren't all in the same nation.  The game doesn't have any true end game and if big nations crush little nations than some times those alts are all they have to help them stay in the game.  Just about ever game out there these days you can have multi accounts and chars.   So what is so different about this one?  We paid for our extra copies just like you paid for your one.  Unless some one is abusing there alts than it's not against the rules so move on.  Remember what is the difference from 25 guys playing 50 chars than 50 players playing 50 chars of different nations?  Nothing other than the guys that have two chars might be a bit more organized compared to all the guys playing solo.  

[Norfolk nChance]

Fair enough Guys,

 

Bad Idea all round then.... back to the drawing board.

I do like the idea of a spy and its activities in whatever form that takes. Without the OFFSET though it can't work forever

 

thanks for all the replies. Learning all the time

 

 

Norfolk

 

 

[Raekur]

2 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Most of the nations can't even get three clans to work together half the time how you think they are going to get three clan leaders?  This is so open for abuse to cause it will be the same three leaders prob over and over over and I bet they will push around little guys that don't agree with there views.    Remember when folks say 150 players on line they forget that is on line at the current moment. There is 1000's that play this game on both servers.  We only see a part of those players.  It's more on PvP1 than PvP2.    We prob have over 10K players to be honest counting both servers but we only see any where from 100-1K at a time not counting actual alts on either server.  believe me the single players prob out number the guys with alts 100 to 1.   

 

If some one is breaking the rules we have means to report it in the forums and in game so use those.  Other wise folks need to worry more about the inter clan relationships of there own dang nation and clans and stop worrying about spy's and alts.  Hell half the folks ya'll think are alts are just some players.  The Alts you know that are public are so public it's hard to say they are spying.  It's the guys you don't know about that are the good spy's and I bet you just about every nation has a few players with mutil alts and I promise you they aren't all in the same nation.  The game doesn't have any true end game and if big nations crush little nations than some times those alts are all they have to help them stay in the game.  Just about ever game out there these days you can have multi accounts and chars.   So what is so different about this one?  We paid for our extra copies just like you paid for your one.  Unless some one is abusing there alts than it's not against the rules so move on.  Remember what is the difference from 25 guys playing 50 chars than 50 players playing 50 chars of different nations?  Nothing other than the guys that have two chars might be a bit more organized compared to all the guys playing solo.  

While i fully understand about the clans inability to work together I also see the alts being used to fill PB slots and just sit there, or the spying and broadcasting positions on global, or revealing positions of current missions to hostile fleets as problems as well to which there is absolutely no mechanic in game currently to remove these type of players from a nation. Even though the devs did state that spying was permitted they also stated that there would be a punishment for getting caught. So far to date I have seen 3 cases that warranted a ban submitted, all with concrete evidence to prove the accusation and nothing was done at all. Two of the offenses were even committed by the same person and still nothing. So alts in themselves are not the issue, being unable to remove the ones that are damaging the nation they are part of is the problem. So we have proof that the devs will not resolve the issues, you feel that the players should not be able to resolve the issue, so what other option would be acceptable to remove the offending players from a nation before they frustrate the players to the point that not only will they leave but will be more then happy to rip this game apart via reviews on Gamespot and others like it.

[Kiithnaras]

@Raekur, if the responses to my other thread on giving players some agency to affect the ability of known spies and subversive elements to act with impunity is any indication, individuals that use alts for these acts are vehemently opposed to any reasonable means of countering them besides cowering in dark holes and giving in to their every demand. They don't want a challenge, they want complete and utter domination by any means necessary.

[Sir Texas Sir]

3 hours ago, Raekur said:

While i fully understand about the clans inability to work together I also see the alts being used to fill PB slots and just sit there, or the spying and broadcasting positions on global, or revealing positions of current missions to hostile fleets as problems as well to which there is absolutely no mechanic in game currently to remove these type of players from a nation. Even though the devs did state that spying was permitted they also stated that there would be a punishment for getting caught. So far to date I have seen 3 cases that warranted a ban submitted, all with concrete evidence to prove the accusation and nothing was done at all. Two of the offenses were even committed by the same person and still nothing. So alts in themselves are not the issue, being unable to remove the ones that are damaging the nation they are part of is the problem. So we have proof that the devs will not resolve the issues, you feel that the players should not be able to resolve the issue, so what other option would be acceptable to remove the offending players from a nation before they frustrate the players to the point that not only will they leave but will be more then happy to rip this game apart via reviews on Gamespot and others like it.

You know I think it's funny that one nation that seems to be one of the most populated nations bitches a lot about alts.  Which by logic would mean ya'll would prob have just as many if not more alts than any other nation.   I think the problem and seems the folks that bitch the most about alts and such, is they can't get it in there head that a few guys with alts are kicking the arse of a very larger group of folks of not one nations, but multi nations in one big alliance   I'm going to make a big bet on here.  Your nation prob has 10 times more alts than others and I bet ya'll you will find out that most of the exploiters of some of the recent known exploits aren't the folks with known alts, but most of the folks that we don't know have alts and remain silent about theirs.

Remember the devs have said there was real life traitors and spy, "Loose lips sink ships." So maybe you need to watch what you say in global and well watch what you do in other places.   Ya'll have just as many spies if not more than others do.  Again if 25 guys with 1 alt (I'm just using random numbers here) to fill 50 player slots are beating 50 guys playing there one chars at the same time.  That is not an alt problem that is a skill problem.  You should not have an issue beating some one that is multi tasking at the same time.  Unless the 50 guys are lacking the skills, communication and desire to work together.  Than they prob will get beaten by the 25 guys with or without the alts every time.

 

6 hours ago, Norfolk nChance said:

Fair enough Guys,

 

Bad Idea all round then.... back to the drawing board.

I do like the idea of a spy and its activities in whatever form that takes. Without the OFFSET though it can't work forever

 

thanks for all the replies. Learning all the time

 

 

Norfolk

 

 

That what this section is here for.   To make Suggestions so nothing wrong with that.

[Koltes]

This is the problem as I see it.

In the past we have "quetly" witnessed so much paranoya from nations and label "spy" was given left and right to anyone brave or bold enough to express their opinion.

Thus has frankly ruined people's game and they either reroll different nation or left the game. It came to a point in GB that no one could oppose CKA without being framed as a spy. From there witch hunt and calling him a spy everytime he talked on nation continued until person perished from the nation.

Our real spies at the same time have never been exposed unless we exposed them our selves.

All in all this will hurt the nation more that it will help it, mate

[Koltes]

The better idea will be to improve the game so it does not force players to have an alt in order to survive.

Make economy global, so resourses can be acquired even without owning regions.

Make regional bonus tied to where resource was harvested, not where ship is crafter.

Remove crafting labor hours. Instead of waiting for labor hours to generate, intro crafting real time timers so it takes equal hours to craft a ship. At the same time allow crafting orders, so ships and even number of ships can be built while player is offline.

This alone will reduce the need for alts dramatically.

[WilsonMG]

Nope.

[Raekur]

5 hours ago, koltes said:

Remove crafting labor hours. Instead of waiting for labor hours to generate, intro crafting real time timers so it takes equal hours to craft a ship. At the same time allow crafting orders, so ships and even number of ships can be built while player is offline.

This alone will reduce the need for alts dramatically.

No matter what approach you take to crafting, alts used to gain extra hours will always be of use to increase production. I have never said that using alts in this form was was something i had an issue with.

Using them to fill PB slots thus granting a numerical advantage to the other side is what I feel is unfair. This has nothing to do with skill. Since you like numbers then try this, 25 on each side with 8 alts on one side now make it 25 vs 17 and that is IF the 8 do not actually take action to block or push the 17 into a disadvantage (something I have witnessed and been the target of). Charles Hunter, another person who flat out was dead to rights PROVEN to be abusing the use of an alt by running Rear Admiral missions and escaping thus generating hostility towards GB at a drastic rate. Now if you feel that use of alts in this manner are perfectly acceptable then there is little hope for this game as it will become more of who can backstab and betray instead of who has the best tactical skill. I have seen every faction, pirate and nation alike complain about being outnumbered in a battle, so I can not see where anyone would be acceptable to using alts in a manner like listed above. And taking the stance of "well just create an alt and use it against the enemy the same way" is NOT a solution. This will lead to a game of covert operations in favor over direct action and pvp, Based on the excuses I have heard for why players have switched from national to pirate, " I need more pvp action", would indicate that a covert game is not what is desired. I think the issue is that some that are actually using alts in this manner are the ones who prefer there to not be any way to eject them from the nation they are taking action against. So any proposals that would put into place a way to remove players who take treasonous actions I fully expect to meet heavy resistance. As long as there is no system in place, use of alts in this manner can operate with complete impunity.

 

 

[Koltes]

2 hours ago, Raekur said:

No matter what approach you take to crafting, alts used to gain extra hours will always be of use to increase production. I have never said that using alts in this form was was something i had an issue with.
Yeah and this is only valuable option for players because their own character limitations. Give more options to the main character to acquire game goods and there will be less reasons to have alts.
 

Using them to fill PB slots thus granting a numerical advantage to the other side is what I feel is unfair.
We have never done it in this way. Only when we were outnumbered, while could not bring the full group. We would bring alts and would have to manage 2 accounts. This has never been 2 alts on 1 player. Its always been 2 alts vs 2 players.
As you can see this was not to give yourself an advantage, but to remove some disadvantage by mitigating received damage. When BLACK clan had somewhat equal numbers we never brought extra alts. This was only used when 10-15 of us faced 25. When we were outnumbered by 2-5 players we didn't bother.
This issue I believe will resolve itself with having larger number of players after the release.

This has nothing to do with skill.
1 person fighting using 2 alts is still in great disadvantage because he can only man one at the time vs 2 players managing only their own account. What does it tell you if 2 players cant kill 1 player macro managing 2 ships? Sounds like a skill to me, but lets not make this an argument. Your or mine perspective is our own thing.

Since you like numbers then try this, 25 on each side with 8 alts on one side now make it 25 vs 17 and that is IF the 8 do not actually take action to block or push the 17 into a disadvantage (something I have witnessed and been the target of).
Thanks, I definitely like numbers. New PB mechanics only give more reasons to use alts, because numbers > than skill right now. When BLACK have same or somewhat equal numbers we do not bring alts. Managing alts is a hard work and frankly no fun to play. All we want is not to be greatly outnumbered to the point when you cant win because they will always outcap the circles. Getting an advantage over outnumbered enemy by swarming them with alts is not in our books and I think is low and not worthy of players who take pride of their skill. Is this happen BLACK will also be in disagreement.

But when all you have is 17 players facing 25, this is a legit time to bring 5-8 alts to help to even the numbers. Is it not?
Again this wont be an issues once the game is released and PB will be filled up easy.


Charles Hunter, another person who flat out was dead to rights PROVEN to be abusing the use of an alt by running Rear Admiral missions and escaping thus generating hostility towards GB at a drastic rate. Now if you feel that use of alts in this manner are perfectly acceptable then there is little hope for this game as it will become more of who can backstab and betray instead of who has the best tactical skill.
I don't know who Charles Hunter is. Are you talking about PVP1, because we are on PVP2. We are definitely NOT ok with this. First time we have discovered this accidentally when grinding down hostility at Kidd's. We spoke about it playing with the idea, but never actually used it because it didn't feel right. Then devs made a statement that this is banable offence. I assure you we have never done it. All it takes for 10 of BLACK guys is about an hour to raise the hostility and flip the port. We are that efficient. Because the only reason we flip the port battle is to have an actual fight, there is no need for us to flip it elsewhere to counter PBs and create so called diversion. Counter flip is what nations do on PVP2 hoping that we will have to protect and wont show up to the port we flipped. We flip PB - we show up for the fight. Easy.


I have seen every faction, pirate and nation alike complain about being outnumbered in a battle, so I can not see where anyone would be acceptable to using alts in a manner like listed above.
We don't use alts to exploit. They are mainly our resource/ship providers. People forget that pirates been down to 1 region for months. Instead of leaving the game like many nations do, we found the way to stay and play. A legit way. If we using alts to fight we actually play that alt which is also a legit game. For example we used French alts to join French PBs and fight along side them.
Dual boxing 2 accounts at the same time was only done when we were greatly outnumbered, not to gain any numbers advantage.


And taking the stance of "well just create an alt and use it against the enemy the same way" is NOT a solution. This will lead to a game of covert operations in favor over direct action and pvp, Based on the excuses I have heard for why players have switched from national to pirate, " I need more pvp action", would indicate that a covert game is not what is desired. I think the issue is that some that are actually using alts in this manner are the ones who prefer there to not be any way to eject them from the nation they are taking action against. So any proposals that would put into place a way to remove players who take treasonous actions I fully expect to meet heavy resistance. As long as there is no system in place, use of alts in this manner can operate with complete impunity.
You do realise that this only happens due to the game limitations? This things should go away naturally when the game will be released, because I all heartly hope that the final version of the game will sort this issues out before the release.

 

Edited March 15, 2017 by koltes

[Raekur]

Koltes, the 17 vs 25 was an example of 25 on each side already but 8 on one side were alts sent in to occupy slots and thus reduce the fighting force from 25 to 17. There would be no way to "send in alts" to even the battle. You would flat out be reduced to having only 17 to fight with AND those 8 others could manuver around to put the 17 at a further disadvantage by either blocking shots, pushing into irons, or preventing escape from a boarding action to even assisting in a boarding action by providing crew via boarding actions, and being a replacement ship later in the battle. These are the reasons for having some way to kick players out of nations. When I used to play Freelancer there was a specific part of the map that was set up as an isolation zone. No way to exit and teleportation was disabled. The admin would move a person to that zone for 1 week as punishment. In this game that would effectively be the same as the person would have no one to fight, and could not exit the ship and thus would have to remain in the zone until the admins felt the person apologized or the character rerolled.

[Norfolk nChance]

 

The Nation Head System basically will need to come into effect if you want an OW Sandbox with a low touch Dev Overlord input. The ALTs are what kept and are keeping EvE Online alive. This is true for NA also and don't be naïve to think otherwise.

Customers that are willing to pay multiple times for exactly the same product are highly welcomed in any industry. So we all need to look at ALTs in a very different light. They HELP NA survive.

 

How then do we mange them? Or don't we?

 

No one will disagree with a clan head kicking out a member. The clan revolts can happen like in PvP(2) US with the US recently. But we as a community are totally against a Nation Head type of control because of past legacy issues and abuse?

What about a simple vote system. Each nation member can vote for a new head bimonthly. Each nation member gets 1 vote per login per day from the last vote. Thus those that are most active actual have the most votes rather than a super clan with dead players...?

Funny thing now is politics got a whole new dimension and them ALT spies having votes...!!!!

 

Snoopy,

not trying to go for the worlds second most worst Idea you've ever heard but had little input from you. Give us some direction to improve the game fella

 

Norfolk nChance

 

 

 

 

Edited March 15, 2017 by Norfolk nChance

[Koltes]

2 hours ago, Raekur said:

Koltes, the 17 vs 25 was an example of 25 on each side already but 8 on one side were alts sent in to occupy slots and thus reduce the fighting force from 25 to 17. There would be no way to "send in alts" to even the battle. You would flat out be reduced to having only 17 to fight with AND those 8 others could manuver around to put the 17 at a further disadvantage by either blocking shots, pushing into irons, or preventing escape from a boarding action to even assisting in a boarding action by providing crew via boarding actions, and being a replacement ship later in the battle. These are the reasons for having some way to kick players out of nations. When I used to play Freelancer there was a specific part of the map that was set up as an isolation zone. No way to exit and teleportation was disabled. The admin would move a person to that zone for 1 week as punishment. In this game that would effectively be the same as the person would have no one to fight, and could not exit the ship and thus would have to remain in the zone until the admins felt the person apologized or the character rerolled.

Whaaat?! Filling in your ENEMY's PB with YOUR alts to deny them participation slots?! That's just a low scum cheating.
Dude this is definitely not on. That IS banable offence. I guarantee that no one in their right mind would be ok with that. Fkers who exploit the game like that deserve to be hanged on a fore course yard.

[Raekur]

@koltes Now i think you understand what I have seen in the last 3 PB's I have gone to. The first one had 2 people who not only did not assist us but sailed into the beach, were not fired upon by the enemy and one enemy that was nearly sunk sailed up and captured one of these vessels. In the last 2 battles I have seen someone enter the battle and as soon as the battle began would leave. This is the reason why there needs to be something put in place to remove these accounts from the nation they are affecting. I don't expect them to get banned but I would like to at least kick their happy ass out of my nation.

[Rebel Witch]

23 hours ago, Kiithnaras said:

@Raekur,  individuals that use alts for these acts are vehemently opposed to any reasonable means of countering them besides cowering in dark holes and giving in to their every demand. They don't want a challenge, they want complete and utter domination by any means necessary.

While i can understand the frustration Kiithnaras, norfolk and others bring up about spies and traitors, the situation for this game is more complex than this comment would suggest. imho.

After playing MMO's for 20 plus years I believe the one thing that keeps players happiest and coming back is "Player Freedom" . When basic player agency is stripped (that does not include rule breakers) in the name of balances or fairer play (whoever defines what is fair) that is when players start to move on. Because those players who often try to place limits on other players are often times prepared to take advantage of new rules set in place that give them a new artificial advantage. Its just human nature.

Sorry if my opinion triggers anyone but i dont agree with what you guys have proposed for player run governing bodies to police other players. It wont work.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Rebel Witch

[Raekur]

Ok, then to those that reject this approach to remove the degenerates from a specific population, what would you suggest because doing nothing is simply not going to work and will continue to grow as time goes on. I don't know how you define fun but for me, entering a port battle to wind up seeing 30%  of your force being a bunch of unknowns who sole purpose is to sit in one place waiting to be captured by the enemy. (for those that like numbers, that makes a 25v25 into a 17v33 battle) 

Keep in mind, I am not suggesting that a person be deleted from the database, simply forced to reroll to a different group then the one he was part of. (with a database flag enabled that sets that account unable to rejoin that nation ever)

 

[Rebel Witch]

33 minutes ago, Raekur said:

Ok, then to those that reject this approach to remove the degenerates from a specific population, what would you suggest because doing nothing is simply not going to work and will continue to grow as time goes on. I don't know how you define fun but for me, entering a port battle to wind up seeing 30%  of your force being a bunch of unknowns who sole purpose is to sit in one place waiting to be captured by the enemy. (for those that like numbers, that makes a 25v25 into a 17v33 battle) 

Keep in mind, I am not suggesting that a person be deleted from the database, simply forced to reroll to a different group then the one he was part of. (with a database flag enabled that sets that account unable to rejoin that nation ever)

 

One thing about sandbox MMO's, which this game is nearly (not fully because its entirely NPC, not player nations) is that those players who try to play to "win" or "inject their morals into" the game are going to ultimately lose in frustration. Because a true sandbox MMO needs to be absolutely full of player freedom even if its cutthroat. Of course there needs to be rules, but it is Dev's who make the rules, not the players. Because when players make rules they almost always make the rule to benefit their play style to check the play style of another which is a sure killer of an MMO sandbox.

In naval action there are goals not winning conditions, in a sandbox MMO, there are variables that go beyond your sprite and to the core of human behavior, including honor, pride, worry, anger and backstabbing etc etc. When a MMO game allows human behavior to flourish alongside its open ended environment, THAT is a gaming experience that caters not to winners and losers but to whiners and achievers. To fully enjoy an MMO to the fullest you have to be willing to lose or at least accept things wont always go your way and you have NO CONTROL OVER IT, that is when you have the most fun!

[Norfolk nChance]

14 hours ago, Rebel Witch said:

One thing about sandbox MMO's, which this game is nearly (not fully because its entirely NPC, not player nations) is that those players who try to play to "win" or "inject their morals into" the game are going to ultimately lose in frustration. Because a true sandbox MMO needs to be absolutely full of player freedom even if its cutthroat. Of course there needs to be rules, but it is Dev's who make the rules, not the players. Because when players make rules they almost always make the rule to benefit their play style to check the play style of another which is a sure killer of an MMO sandbox.

In naval action there are goals not winning conditions, in a sandbox MMO, there are variables that go beyond your sprite and to the core of human behavior, including honor, pride, worry, anger and backstabbing etc etc. When a MMO game allows human behavior to flourish alongside its open ended environment, THAT is a gaming experience that caters not to winners and losers but to whiners and achievers. To fully enjoy an MMO to the fullest you have to be willing to lose or at least accept things wont always go your way and you have NO CONTROL OVER IT, that is when you have the most fun!

 

Rebel Witch makes a great point here and one I was thinking about but couldn't explain. Our Big Sister "EvE" you pick a Nation type to start but is irrelevant in the game as in Null-Sec (apologies for those that never played EvE Online). The Open Sandbox flaw for Naval Action is the NPC of the Nation States.

I'm not sure that an OFFSET or balance could be implemented without PC Clan of clans controls even if very minor.

Rebel Witch you must know EVE well, we had spies and massive corporate robberies and infringements with far greater impacts than NA, any thoughts or lesson to be taken here?

 

 

Norfolk

 

Edited March 16, 2017 by Norfolk nChance

[Raekur]

Ok, then I guess the only other option is to get the Devs to actually remove the discovered spy from the nation. So far there has been one clear cut case that I know of and the devs did nothing. The player later rerolled, possibly back to the same nation he was part of in order to continue spying, intruding on port battles, and creating hostility. 

Or I could just wait until every nation including pirates have characters within their ranks that are there for the sole purpose of committing the previously mention actions. I guess at that point things will be even and quite interesting.

[Norfolk nChance]

Raekur

 

as we've said and agreed that's just not going to happen, and probably not what we want. The focus will change now onto the alliance and ship wipe to come.

This discussion I think will become sidelined until a later time... but I would like to hear alternate (pardon the pun) views on Command and Control from the very extreme to tame....

 

Norfolk.