Augustus Charles Hobart H Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 When grinding up a port battle at Castries our missions was joined by 4 french players who after a moment of fighting proceeded to run away up wind for the full hour the fight had remaining despite requests to leave if they had no intention of fighting us. They ran away dragging our mission out for the full 1.5 hours despite repeated offers and requests to leave if they did not want to fight. I would like a ruling on if this is acceptable behavior, as if this is ok then we WILL start using the same to prevent flips at times we don't want. As it stands the result is the french get a battle late at night instead at the target time of 20:00 as i will not call of my hostility fleet for griefing. pics http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=880904905 http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=880905081 video (45 min long of them running away until we slowly catch and kill them) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christendom Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 FYI you still get credit for your kills when you leave the battle. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Charles Hobart H Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 had we left they would have simply killed the AI santi in there for points also they were sailing upwind and tagging our sails to keep some of us in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Charles Hobart H Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) 6 minutes ago, DesMoines said: it s not griefing...because we shoot you all the time....and you shoot we all the time (and you sink us...).... not the same than you who run far...and don t shoot on ship.... now you can whine...it s your possibility...are are really some GB...omg i dare say you will be unhappy when its done to you, if you don't have anything to add as you were not in the battle then don't post here. Also funny from the guys who cry about the time of port battles but then delay them till they are night flips rather then fight our fleet. All i asked for was a ruling on if this acceptable from the mods, if it is then i will simply start using it my self and let it go. Edited March 11, 2017 by Augustus Charles Hobart H 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kloothommel Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) In the previous tribunal there was no shooting sails. In this one there was. I guess it's up to the mods. You get your sunk ships points though. Edited March 11, 2017 by Kloothommel 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sruPL Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 They could simply escape, but they kept shooting sails, just to delay everything. They avoided fighting, it's called griefing. If I tag 1 ship for 1:30h and stay away from fight, but can easly escape, that's griefing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Charles Hobart H Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) 22 minutes ago, DesMoines said: Do as you please. I tell you that on your video there is no griefing since you are shooting non stop on it and it is reciprocal for you. Louis XVI is my alt. and the trinc and the surprise that stayed after you sunk? Will you argue that they were engaging? If you read the tribunal Klooth linked you would see that the British ship did engage the french AI so clearly they did shoot. So if you want to argue on the technicality go ahead, but don't tribunal for it then. You will also note that the mods sides in favor of it being greifing in that case. Edited March 11, 2017 by Augustus Charles Hobart H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kloothommel Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) Just as a trial case: Would a frigate shooting sails of 1st rates it tagged and otherwise running be griefing? Because the definition is tough to set in that case. Is it griefing in missions and should it also be seen as griefing in tagging/screening? If a smaller ship keeps tagging you without any intention of getting into a "real' fight, what you are arguing, shouldn't this apply to screening as well, especially since they are both RVR related and equally annoying? #foodforthought For the mods: i know this isn't direct evidence of sorts, I would implore you to look at this line of reasoning. Edited March 11, 2017 by Kloothommel 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Charles Hobart H Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Kloothommel said: Just as a trial case: Would a frigate shooting sails of 1st rates it tagged and otherwise running be griefing? Because the definition is tough to set in that case. Is it griefing in missions and should it also be seen as griefing in tagging/screening? If a smaller ship keeps tagging you without any intention of getting into a "real' fight, what you are arguing, shouldn't this apply to screening as well, especially since they are both RVR related and equally annoying? #foodforthought For the mods: i know this isn't direct evidence of sorts, I would implore you to look at this line of reasoning. Hardly, your trying to compare a screening tag with mission jumping. Given that the french complained of this behavior first, and you had nothing to say when the mods ruled on that, why is it so relevant to you as an unrelated party now? I would not have bothered if not for the previous ruling you pointed out. If the french them selves view this as griefing as evidenced by their post, why do the french now say its not? As more food for thought, your own clan put up a tribunal about no show port battles yet the french no showed Trinidad(i will find my recording if you disagree), and the swedes (albeit with some warning) no showed Orinoco a few days ago, where is your public condemnation on that? Would logging out in front of the port, and thus denying content to the screeners and indeed circumventing the intended ability to PvP in the OW on the way to the port also be griefing? Your attempting to take a point of view french players agreed with enough to post a tribunal about, and that at the time I'm willing to bet you supported, and now that the french are being called to account for the behavior they condemned use the same thing as and argument for a topic unrelated to this tribunal. Edited March 11, 2017 by Augustus Charles Hobart H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kloothommel Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 I put it out there as a train of thought. The difference between this and then is that now you get points, where at the time of the previous tribunal you didn't. Big difference. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Silberbart Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) This is not griefing. Do it by youself and stop calling it griefing coz you dont like their way to play. I know asked for a Mod statement but hole thread incl. title sounds like another cry thread Edited March 11, 2017 by Sven Silberbart 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JollyRoger1516 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 The only one crying is you guys. We are asking for the devs/mods ruling here not for comments. And as you guys are always crying about late port battles maybe this is not the best idea to do things as you now have a late night game experience instead of a nice evening battle. You only really harmed yourself here as the battle is happening nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick_Astley Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Nothing to see here, the YMCA brigade aka the Exploiting Alliance will be here crying about night flips again on Monday morning. I see where Augustus is coming from! clearly stating the reason behind the night flipping and asking the Devs to confirm clearly if this is allowed or not, I have not seen any post claiming otherwise, he is just looking for clarity to see if this is allowed so we can return the favor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anolytic Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 (sorry mods for off topic, but this is a direct response to a comment addressing me and a previous tribunal case) 7 hours ago, Augustus Charles Hobart H said: Hardly, your trying to compare a screening tag with mission jumping. Given that the french complained of this behavior first, and you had nothing to say when the mods ruled on that, why is it so relevant to you as an unrelated party now? I would not have bothered if not for the previous ruling you pointed out. If the french them selves view this as griefing as evidenced by their post, why do the french now say its not? The issue that the french complaint was based on has supposedly been fixed with the solution that the mission now gives points when you leave even if the enemy is trying to do this. The tagging of sails just to delay other player for 90 minutes is not something I look upon as gentlemanly, yet it is such a big part of many aspects of this game like Screening, kiting and so on, and I am not certain that it is tribunal worthy. I am however happy to see the devs rule on this. However much they frown upon this I'm not sure it is possible to root out or to punish this behaviour. Just the other day a pirate in a fir snow shot my h.rattle's sails for 90 minutes with no intention to fight me. Once I realised how it was going to go I lowered my sails and went afk to watch a movie. On the other hand I have sometimes shot sails for 70 minutes on an enemy, before turning to grape and board him. 7 hours ago, Augustus Charles Hobart H said: As more food for thought, your own clan put up a tribunal about no show port battles yet the french no showed Trinidad(i will find my recording if you disagree), and the swedes (albeit with some warning) no showed Orinoco a few days ago, where is your public condemnation on that? This is incorrect. I put before the tribunal a case with proof based on admitted intentional griefing by specific US players. Unfortunately that case was dismissed by a US moderator without reading or addressing the accusation in the OP. Like with the no-show attack at Santo Domingo by yourself, Orinoco by the Swedes, or Trinidad by the French, players get frustrated after wasting their time. But I think that most will realise that in neither of these cases was this intentional griefing. It is simply a feature of the new conquest system that attackers will not always be able to make their own port battles. Previously we had flags, and people only bought them if they had already gathered enough people to go attack a port. Now we set port battles, but there is no guarantee that 46 hours later we will have enough people or the logistics to make a proper attempt to attack that port. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vil Coyote Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Wow, one or two things really need to be be clarified here: First, i strongly recommend to remove that video or at least the part where you publicly show me as a "runner (understand a coward) or whatever insulting insanity you used. Who do you think you are, you don't know me and i surely don't know you (and honestly when i hear your comments in game i'm happy with that). This surprise was made for one thing and only one, pursuits of gankers in our waters, that is to say your buddies commin near Fort Royal, gankin lonely ships, but fleein if they're not literally 1.5x or 2x more than opponents (thanx by the way to the "new" genius ROE wanted by guys like you, always complaining for all and everything in that forum.) And THAT was exactly what we were doing, counter hunting, when we saw your battle. We decided to enter even if we knew it was going to be a hard fight. Luckily for you and unluckily for us, barrely half of us managed to enter before the battle closed. So be sure buddy, if we had time to take another ships, we would, and things would surely gone in a different end, i'm personnaly not afraid of doing close combat like you sadly insinuate, (Kloothommel maybe remember the tournament...) but for this you have to have the right ship, and we had not. what did you expect, would I just had to run between an ocean and a bucc with a damaged bermuda surprise to make you joyfull ? Nonsens, we fought with our weapons which were not power nor tankingness (nor number)... Now, in a first time we tried to make the bello escape but you don't stopped firing at her, louisxvi only firing to the consti arrassing is right side, he showed the rest of you only his stern. A lot of you, including yourself firing at him while he is not a threat... When the bello sank, i just tried to escape as i could, this is obvious on the video, i even stop firing from the back around the time you used the free cam, but a pal of you tagged me before the 15 sec remaing to escape... The truth is that you are acting the poor good guys asking us to if we wanted to escape, but in fact you just wanted to sink us, period. That is true that a bello with around 60% of sails at the last AI kill is a juicy target... (this is perfectly fine, this is the game, we won't cry on a forum). You're just angry you caught us so lately , and that, ruined your PB synchronistaion. You know that our wreck very possibly made you actually flip the zone, timers seem to match at least... "in fine" YOU deliberatly chose to stay as longer as required in battle, to sank us (like you said at the end, the 1 min thing)... If you really wished to put an end earlier, you could have stop, show us your side, ready to fire and sails down. If we would have turn to open fire, assuming we could pierce your armour or a hit masts, what you're saying could have been possibly verified, Or if you prefer, why not leaving in the wind, when you see shape of our sails compared to yours ? As i said, we just searchin to cover the bello escape, and then our own escape (that's something we don't don't see in your video, but we were very far away from the belo when you sank the last AI, actually on the opposed side of the battle, almost 100% sails for the 2 fregates. If we acted as you told, why would we regrouped then, it would have been far more effective to stay separated). We have a proverb in french for that kind of situation meaning that : you wanted the butler, the money of the butler, and the woman who made the butler... Seems the woman said NO... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sruPL Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, Kloothommel said: Just as a trial case: Would a frigate shooting sails of 1st rates it tagged and otherwise running be griefing? Because the definition is tough to set in that case. Is it griefing in missions and should it also be seen as griefing in tagging/screening? If a smaller ship keeps tagging you without any intention of getting into a "real' fight, what you are arguing, shouldn't this apply to screening as well, especially since they are both RVR related and equally annoying? #foodforthought For the mods: i know this isn't direct evidence of sorts, I would implore you to look at this line of reasoning. I would consider most of the screening fights as slighly griefing and veery annoying thingy. Staying in battle with no intention to fight but delay is griefing. But solution for this would be change of tagging system. Anyway, jumping mission and not fighting looks like more signifant griefing destroying the efforts of doing already boring enough missions. Solution - no PvE missions for hostilty system, but something else. Edited March 11, 2017 by sruPL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major General La Fayette Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 What a funny topic there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Charles Hobart H Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Vil Coyote said: Wow, one or two things really need to be be clarified here: First, i strongly recommend to remove that video or at least the part where you publicly show me as a "runner (understand a coward) or whatever insulting insanity you used. Who do you think you are, you don't know me and i surely don't know you (and honestly when i hear your comments in game i'm happy with that). This surprise was made for one thing and only one, pursuits of gankers in our waters, that is to say your buddies commin near Fort Royal, gankin lonely ships, but fleein if they're not literally 1.5x or 2x more than opponents (thanx by the way to the "new" genius ROE wanted by guys like you, always complaining for all and everything in that forum.) And THAT was exactly what we were doing, counter hunting, when we saw your battle. We decided to enter even if we knew it was going to be a hard fight. Luckily for you and unluckily for us, barrely half of us managed to enter before the battle closed. So be sure buddy, if we had time to take another ships, we would, and things would surely gone in a different end, i'm personnaly not afraid of doing close combat like you sadly insinuate, (Kloothommel maybe remember the tournament...) but for this you have to have the right ship, and we had not. what did you expect, would I just had to run between an ocean and a bucc with a damaged bermuda surprise to make you joyfull ? Nonsens, we fought with our weapons which were not power nor tankingness (nor number)... Now, in a first time we tried to make the bello escape but you don't stopped firing at her, louisxvi only firing to the consti arrassing is right side, he showed the rest of you only his stern. A lot of you, including yourself firing at him while he is not a threat... When the bello sank, i just tried to escape as i could, this is obvious on the video, i even stop firing from the back around the time you used the free cam, but a pal of you tagged me before the 15 sec remaing to escape... The truth is that you are acting the poor good guys asking us to if we wanted to escape, but in fact you just wanted to sink us, period. That is true that a bello with around 60% of sails at the last AI kill is a juicy target... (this is perfectly fine, this is the game, we won't cry on a forum). You're just angry you caught us so lately , and that, ruined your PB synchronistaion. You know that our wreck very possibly made you actually flip the zone, timers seem to match at least... "in fine" YOU deliberatly chose to stay as longer as required in battle, to sank us (like you said at the end, the 1 min thing)... If you really wished to put an end earlier, you could have stop, show us your side, ready to fire and sails down. If we would have turn to open fire, assuming we could pierce your armour or a hit masts, what you're saying could have been possibly verified, Or if you prefer, why not leaving in the wind, when you see shape of our sails compared to yours ? As i said, we just searchin to cover the bello escape, and then our own escape (that's something we don't don't see in your video, but we were very far away from the belo when you sank the last AI, actually on the opposed side of the battle, almost 100% sails for the 2 fregates. If we acted as you told, why would we regrouped then, it would have been far more effective to stay separated). We have a proverb in french for that kind of situation meaning that : you wanted the butler, the money of the butler, and the woman who made the butler... Seems the woman said NO... Don't argue ganking with me when your alliance shows up in 10-20 man fleets looking to club seals at port royal and has more then a year. And yes you did ruin our timing, good for you on that but am i going to hear more about night flips when you pushed the PB to what 12:30 am your time? WE asked you if you wanted to leave many times, you never responded so yes we perused you and sank you, our timing was already messed up and I knew we had more ships on the way. And indeed as predicted when more ships arrived you did not want to fight, in fact your first rates only stood there looking at ours trying to call in more people. In the end you left and let us flip the port without resistance. So you made a night flip that you will no doubt argue is British abuse of the game. On a side note Anolytic we both know you would have reported that Savannah regardless of crowns opening his big mouth. That tribunal was more to make a statement then over any hope of punishment, and indeed its failure is why I have never bothered to tribunal anything like it that has happened. I have little hope that this will actually be resolved or any cases of cheating or exploitation (granted this case is not cheating or exploitation) People will only say we are testers and use that as cover for any kind of behavior they want, and others will say the game will change so that's not possible anyway. But if that's all we as players want, to greif and game the system then we should at least be honest about it. Edited March 11, 2017 by Augustus Charles Hobart H 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Charles Hobart H Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 4 minutes ago, rediii said: hahahahha Tribunal rules my friend go read them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Charles Hobart H Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 4 minutes ago, Major General La Fayette said: What a funny topic there did you have an alt in that battle too or are you just also ignoring the tribunal rules? At least anolytic and Klooth tried to be constructive 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Charles Hobart H Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 1 minute ago, rediii said: Shooting sails for 1 1/2 hours is exactly what both alliances do in screening to a point when many guys just stopped caring and began to log out because of these things so it's either a valid tactic or screening will be not permitted in the future. (which will not work anyway because you need the same amount of BR or more) This happened to me once with a portbattlegroup. we got into 2 battles which both span 1 1/2 hours. So 3 hours wasted for >25 players. Trust me i know that this is griefing and one of the most demotivating things in this game but there will be nothing done about it because it's just not possible. and again your creating a false equivalence and ignoring tribunal rules, mission jumping and screening are two different situations, and given that you refuse to sail to your port battles anyway dose it even matter? derpy tag rules work both ways, tag our whole screen with 5 ships and laugh or is that too hard for you? The new BR rules will make screening worse not better. And again i will ask why is it bad when British do it but ok when french do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vil Coyote Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, Augustus Charles Hobart H said: Don't argue ganking with me when your alliance shows up in 10-20 man fleets looking to club seals at port royal and has more then a year. And yes you did ruin our timing, good for you on that but am i going to hear more about night flips when you pushed the PB to what 12:30 am your time? WE asked you if you wanted to leave many times, you never responded so yes we perused you and sank you, our timing was already messed up and I knew we had more ships on the way. And indeed as predicted when more ships arrived you did not want to fight, in fact your first rates only stood there looking at ours trying to call in more people. In the end you left and let us flip the port without resistance. So you made a night flip that you will no doubt argue is British abuse of the game. Firstly, ganking is not the subject here, i'm just sayin that if i had this ship, it was not in the primary intention to go into this fight like you insinuate in your video : "runner" or or whatever is the exact words you used. The Pretty funny thing is that it is the exact contrary of what you say, i have this ship only to (try to) catch your buddies doing exactly what you pretending i'm doing... I don't pretend to be the better player you ever met, but you can see in this video that i know a minimum how to handle my ship, protect hull or sails. At the begining of this video, i have half of my 2 sides, my 2 repairs already used... This is surely not the result of a stayin away and (or not) kitting action. I actually fought in the middle of a 1st and 2nd rates fleet, that's all. Secondly, We didn't ruin anything, at least not more that you did. I repeat, you never ever tried to leave the battle. Once again, the crucial part of this fight is not in the video, maybe 5 or 10 mins before the begining of it. from when you sank the last IA, Louis XVI, during the time we joined him had 2 Oceans firing at him non stop... after that, the consti which was chasing me even go side to side with him (that's the begining of the video). Like i said before, a 60% bellona is a tasty target. Why we didn't responded to you ? try the next time to show you actually want to disengage, don't ask that while your buddy or yourself discharge a full 1st rate side on me... We don't need your permission to leave a battle nor you need ours. Thirstly We were not responsable of what the other french were doing outside, we were in this fight on no orders or whatever, just we saw you battle open... concerning the night flips, how to say that : if you look closely you will see that this current message is only the 2nd i ever made on this forum (and surely one of my last), i ever complained about that, and don't want to enter this debate now. Just it seems to me that 23H30 server time is not really what we call a night flip, we and so, you, have a lot of players still connected. I seem to understand that a night flip is more near 2, 3 or 4H, when almost nobody is connected at this time, specialy on our side. But like i said i'm not in this debate (and don't intend to be) and i could be wrong on this point. To sum up, my intervention is just to put things staright, i don't like to be publicly pointed with a finger by some guys using exactly a reversed accusation. you chased us, and not the contrary, you sank us, and not the contrary. As i said before if you really intend to, you could have easily escape from the start of the video, the moment when our fregates joigned Louis XVI. As you said, you knew your timing was messed and admit you just wanted to sank us, but then why this stupid video, why this stupid forum case ? I have my little idea on that but i keep it for myself.... Edited March 11, 2017 by Vil Coyote 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major General La Fayette Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 What's your problem here Agustus, are you mad because some are just defending their territory ? You were trying to attack a region, expect defenders to come. I don't get your complains, you're arguing about ppl that just played the game ? Ok they shot your sails for a long moment, but what did you expect ? You thought they will suicide between 2 1st rates ? They ain't dumb, they were defending with less players than you, they did their job that's all. It can be compared with screening, you attack with bigger and more ships, they defend with smaller and less ships, the only useful thing to do is shoot your sails far from you, this tribunal post is pointless. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick_Astley Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 10 minutes ago, Major General La Fayette said: What's your problem here Agustus, are you mad because some are just defending their territory ? You were trying to attack a region, expect defenders to come. I don't get your complains, you're arguing about ppl that just played the game ? Ok they shot your sails for a long moment, but what did you expect ? You thought they will suicide between 2 1st rates ? They ain't dumb, they were defending with less players than you, they did their job that's all. It can be compared with screening, you attack with bigger and more ships, they defend with smaller and less ships, the only useful thing to do is shoot your sails far from you, this tribunal post is pointless. Show me in military history where "defenders" *as you claim* sail toward the enemy fleet and runs causing a timer that followed historical captains around the globe to run out and fail the missions??? I can tell you that is complete shite!! If you and others came to defend... bring a fleet and engage!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hethwill Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Not so square out but "drawing out a enemy fleet" has been done a thousand times. One of them is still celebrated as a great victory. Allowed the landing of a army and drew out navy guns that could be supporting a land army. And yes, in the age of sail. Well, they weren't playing games. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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