Diverse Port Battle Fleets

[Aventador]

I propose that the devs open ports so that all ships can enter but there would be a cap on line ships. Battles currently have no diversity what so ever. Lineship battles only have firsts rates, 4th rate battles only have ags. If there was a cap of 3-5 ships of the line in a battle it would require captains to bring a more diversified fleet. It would also make port battles much more realistic.

[Angus McGregor]

The problem with any restrictions by rating of ship means the PB entry almost certainly has to be lobby-based. Otherwise deciding and tracking which slots of each rating are being taken by who becomes a headache. Not an insurmountable one, but a headache all the same.

I'm wondering about a system where the PB is 'owned' by one captain, a 'PB Commander', on each side... highest hostility earned? What other measure could be used? I'm tempted to say 'appointed' by attacking and defending nations, but how? Have to consider the cases where PBs are being fought entirely by allies.

That 'PB Commander'  has a separate screen that opens for 2 minutes when the PB activates. That screen indicates all the captains/ships that have clicked the swords indicating they'd like to join. He can approve/deny each individual captain/ship for each rating slot. He has that 2 minutes to make his decisions . The captains/ships he picks enter the PB instance immediately when he selects 'Attack' or when the 2 minute timer expires. After that, any captain with hostility points can take an open rating slot and enter the PB instance if his ship qualifies. After 5 minutes, any captain can enter if his ship qualifies for a rating slot still open.

It's kind of a lobby system for the first 2 minutes, but not a lobby after that.

I think the main stumbling block to the idea is picking the PB Commander for each side in a fair and agreeable way, or at least one not open to dispute. That and the coding involved for the PB Commander approval screen.

Comments?

[Guest]

58 minutes ago, Aventador said:

I propose that the devs open ports so that all ships can enter but there would be a cap on line ships. Battles currently have no diversity what so ever. Lineship battles only have firsts rates, 4th rate battles only have ags. If there was a cap of 3-5 ships of the line in a battle it would require captains to bring a more diversified fleet. It would also make port battles much more realistic.

We definitely need something, because you're completely right. The fleets are wwaayy too predictable. Half the battle should be using the strengths of the mob of ships available to you as best you can. Instead it's these completely even fights from the start. The only diversity now is whether or not someone will bring a mortar brig. Or if we get some random person sneaking in. 

I am afraid a system like you are suggesting wouldn't work without some kind of lobby.. Maybe this could work if we "buy" a spot in the pb ahead of time...? I know the devs have the admiralty store in our future, and it seems we might be buying pb's again with something similar to a flag. Maybe we could get to buy a spot ahead of time? I don't love the sound of such a system, as it will have its own problems, but it would allow such a restriction to the number of ship types.

 

24 minutes ago, Angus McGregor said:

The problem with any restrictions by rating of ship means the PB entry almost certainly has to be lobby-based. Otherwise deciding and tracking which slots of each rating are being taken by who becomes a headache. Not an insurmountable one, but a headache all the same.

I'm wondering about a system where the PB is 'owned' by one captain, a 'PB Commander', on each side... highest hostility earned? What other measure could be used? I'm tempted to say 'appointed' by attacking and defending nations, but how? Have to consider the cases where PBs are being fought entirely by allies.

That 'PB Commander'  has a separate screen that opens for 2 minutes when the PB activates. That screen indicates all the captains/ships that have clicked the swords indicating they'd like to join. He can approve/deny each individual captain/ship for each rating slot. He has that 2 minutes to make his decisions . The captains/ships he picks enter the PB instance immediately when he selects 'Attack' or when the 2 minute timer expires. After that, any captain with hostility points can take an open rating slot and enter the PB instance if his ship qualifies. After 5 minutes, any captain can enter if his ship qualifies for a rating slot still open.

It's kind of a lobby system for the first 2 minutes, but not a lobby after that.

I think the main stumbling block to the idea is picking the PB Commander for each side in a fair and agreeable way, or at least one not open to dispute. That and the coding involved for the PB Commander approval screen.

Comments?

Its an interesting idea (although it sounds rather tricky) but i'm still not seeing how this would change the current dynamic. Wouldn't this fleet commander still just check "yes" for every agamemnon in a 4th rate? Why would he let ingers, conni's, or even 5th rates and lower in. 

[Vernon Merrill]

BR as a quick fix....  bathymetry as the final solution.

 

Detailed harbor maps that drop as loot for explorer missions.

 

Bathymetric maps reset after a successful attack on the port...

 

BOOM. DONE.

[Angus McGregor]

8 minutes ago, EliteDelta said:

Its an interesting idea (although it sounds rather tricky) but i'm still not seeing how this would change the current dynamic. Wouldn't this fleet commander still just check "yes" for every agamemnon in a 4th rate? Why would he let ingers, conni's, or even 5th rates and lower in. 

Well, the idea is based on PBs having requirements for different ratings within the PB like Aventador suggested. What is now a 1st Rate PB would have quotas for other ratings as well to make the both attack/defence fleets more historically accurate and diverse.

• 5  - 1st rates
• 7  - 2nd rates
• 8  - 3rd rates
• 5  - 4th rates and under

The 4th rate PBs would have similar quotas for ships of lesser rating.

• 7  - 4th rates
• 8  - 5th rates
• 10 - 6th rates and under

Numbers given subject to debate.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

BR as a quick fix....  bathymetry as the final solution.

 

Detailed harbor maps that drop as loot for explorer missions.

 

Bathymetric maps reset after a successful attack on the port...

 

BOOM. DONE.

I've seen this suggested before, and it sounds like a perfect solution. I just wonder if it is even being considered.. I seem to remember seeing the devs stating it would be difficult to code, but I can't remember where..

[Vernon Merrill]

1 minute ago, EliteDelta said:

I've seen this suggested before, and it sounds like a perfect solution. I just wonder if it is even being considered.. I seem to remember seeing the devs stating it would be difficult to code, but I can't remember where..

Yeah, I've seen that too...   I have a hard time believing it cant be done in the long-term however.  Just my $.02

 

[van der Clam]

Devs also need to make cap circles in some of the ports be shallow, allowing only shallow ships to enter and cap them. Say it was a deep water like Islamorada, Cap Zone A would be deep, B and C could be shallow, especially considering it's a tiny island surrounded by shallows. Also, one of the cap circles should be on the north side of the circle.. It would provide some wild strategies needed to cap.

[Guest]

Maybe it could be implemented that only a certain class of ship and below can capture a circle. It sounds rather limiting, but what if in a lineship pb, only 3rd rates and smaller could capture the circles. People would still bring 1st rates (and maybe 2nd, though i'm not sure if they would) but the circle battle would be decided by the smaller ships with the larger ones trying to sink the smaller.. 

I can already see a few problems with my own suggestion, but I haven't heard it suggested before. 

 

EDIT: @van der Decken LOL! I just say I haven't seen this suggested before and then you suggest it 15 seconds before me. Well done

Edited February 22, 2017 by Guest

[Angus McGregor]

^  ^

[van der Clam]

1 minute ago, EliteDelta said:

Maybe it could be implemented that only a certain class of ship and below can capture a circle. It sounds rather limiting, but what if in a lineship pb, only 3rd rates and smaller could capture the circles. People would still bring 1st rates (and maybe 2nd, though i'm not sure if they would) but the circle battle would be decided by the smaller ships with the larger ones trying to sink the smaller.. 

I can already see a few problems with my own suggestion, but I haven't heard it suggested before. 

 

EDIT: @van der Decken LOL! I just say I haven't seen this suggested before and then you suggest it 15 seconds before me. Well done

That's a brilliant idea mate, I wish I had thought of something like that.

[Guest]

Sounds like something that should be written up as its own suggestion, so it doesn't get lost.

[VirtuallyIdiotic]

I agree with this. Frankly, as a PvP2 player, I do not care how common it is to see a 1st rate in a port battle and especially open world. Maybe have 1st rates or whatever top end ship may be restricted to a pb commander. "Flagships" per say.

This all might all change however too if the population of the game increases and if they implement what I expect will happen, a return of the experience requirements in ranks after full release.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Davos Seasworth

[Aventador]

3 hours ago, EliteDelta said:

I am afraid a system like you are suggesting wouldn't work without some kind of lobby..

True if we went exactly by what I said but if you combine BR into the equation I think there could be an opportunity for a great system.

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Aventador said:

True if we went exactly by what I said but if you combine BR into the equation I think there could be an opportunity for a great system.

Could you elaborate a bit? I'm interested in what you're saying. An example would be nice, if you have time ^.^

[shaeberle84]

I keep hearing people say with a BR cap per port, that setting up the fleet would be a headache. I dont believe it. Lets try it first. It would solve so many other issues!

[Fletch]

I did put forward the suggestion that a port battle could have  25 slots but bigger ships take up multiple slots. So a first rate could take 4 slots a second rate 3 slots 3rd rate 2 slots 4th rate 1 slot something along those lines

[VirtuallyIdiotic]

46 minutes ago, Fletch67 said:

I did put forward the suggestion that a port battle could have  25 slots but bigger ships take up multiple slots. So a first rate could take 4 slots a second rate 3 slots 3rd rate 2 slots 4th rate 1 slot something along those lines

I like this concept. Especially with the three ring king of the hill system they are using factions will have to decide team make up even more than they do now.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Davos Seasworth

[Aventador]

49 minutes ago, EliteDelta said:

Could you elaborate a bit? I'm interested in what you're saying. An example would be nice, if you have time ^.^

Sure, it's just a matter of doing the math and figuring out a balanced BR.

1 Lineship equals 600 BR. 600x25 is 15000 BR which is the max a lineship battle can hold currently.

1 Ag equals 250 BR. 250x25 is 6250 BR which is the max for a 4th rate battle.

1 HR equals 70 BR. 70x25 is 1750 BR which is the max for a shallow battle.

If you got rid of the different types of Port Battles and just had 2 types Deep water and Shallow water you could balance out the BR between the maximums of each to get a number in the middle. For deep water if you add all 3 of the maximums up and divide by 3 you get 7667 BR. So You could round it up to 8000 BR for Deep water.

(Now these numbers might not be the best numbers to use we would have to test)

For shallows since there isn't a 7th rate pb we can use the Privateer as an example with 30 BR per and 750BR for 25. The middle number between 750 for the privateer and 1750 for the HR is about 1250 BR. 

Now, when the port battle gets started it will have the current BR listed on it. So lets say 8000 BR, 3 first rates join it goes down to 6400 then 10 ags join that will bring it down to 3900 and so on and so forth. You have max 25 slots like we do now to fill the BR. 

[Corona Lisa]

12 minutes ago, Aventador said:

Sure, it's just a matter of doing the math and figuring out a balanced BR.

1 Lineship equals 600 BR. 600x25 is 15000 BR which is the max a lineship battle can hold currently.

1 Ag equals 250 BR. 250x25 is 6250 BR which is the max for a 4th rate battle.

1 HR equals 70 BR. 70x25 is 1750 BR which is the max for a shallow battle.

If you got rid of the different types of Port Battles and just had 2 types Deep water and Shallow water you could balance out the BR between the maximums of each to get a number in the middle. For deep water if you add all 3 of the maximums up and divide by 3 you get 7667 BR. So You could round it up to 8000 BR for Deep water.

(Now these numbers might not be the best numbers to use we would have to test)

For shallows since there isn't a 7th rate pb we can use the Privateer as an example with 30 BR per and 750BR for 25. The middle number between 750 for the privateer and 1750 for the HR is about 1250 BR. 

Now, when the port battle gets started it will have the current BR listed on it. So lets say 8000 BR, 3 first rates join it goes down to 6400 then 10 ags join that will bring it down to 3900 and so on and so forth. You have max 25 slots like we do now to fill the BR. 

But BR is not balanced, it wont take long until people figure out the best combination of ships (2 shiptypes) and then its the same stall meta again.

Would be better if different ports have different slots, like lets say Puerto Plata has maximal 3x 1st rates, 5x 2nd rates ....

But then again you would need a lobby system because otherwise you wouldnt get in a PB with a competitive fleet as attacker, because of screening.

[VirtuallyIdiotic]

@admin @Ink a thread worth keeping an eye on for potential ideas to test out.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Davos Seasworth

[Aventador]

12 minutes ago, JonSnowLetsGo said:

But BR is not balanced, it wont take long until people figure out the best combination of ships (2 shiptypes) and then its the same stall meta again.

Would be better if different ports have different slots, like lets say Puerto Plata has maximal 3x 1st rates, 5x 2nd rates ....

But then again you would need a lobby system because otherwise you wouldnt get in a PB with a competitive fleet as attacker, because of screening.

Maybe do a different BR for every port? Have it range from like 8000-15000

[fox2run]

Couldnt we have two portbattles each night that was lobby based? So that random players and beginners also have a chance to participate? This game excel in larger battles. But not many players get a chance to actually fight them. I think that is a shame.

[Powderhorn]

I wonder if bathymetry could be approximated by taking the average depth of a harbor and calculating a BR threshold from that?

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Fletch67 said:

I did put forward the suggestion that a port battle could have  25 slots but bigger ships take up multiple slots. So a first rate could take 4 slots a second rate 3 slots 3rd rate 2 slots 4th rate 1 slot something along those lines

I like this suggestion a lot. It would definitely take some planning on the part of the attacker and defender, but it sounds very interesting. 

I'm trying to think of ways this would stop working, but i'm not finding much. For example, if one team went with only 1st rates, then they would probably lose on points if the other team brought a mix (that outnumbered the first rates). If a team went for max numbers (probably ending up with lots of smaller ships), than many of those small ships would be killed in the circles going up against a few bigger ones (or maybe they could pull it off, but it would be a cool fight). 

One problem is the ship BR would have to be correctly balanced once again. I seem to remember the devs squishing all the ship BR's together for some reason, but they need to put it back to normal again. If an indefatigable counts the same as an Agamemnon, something is wrong. With a correctly balanced BR system, then this kind of system sounds promising. 

I'm sure many commanders would love the opportunity to actually plan a strategy around bringing a specific fleet, instead of always fighting a mirror image. 

Edited February 23, 2017 by Guest