Dura done right for proper PVP game

[Hethwill]

Small Battles ? Large Battles ? Tournaments ? Open World raids ? PvP Events ? Most prolific ship builder ? Most cargo hauled ? Most flags planted ? Most forts destroyed ?

Define Competitive please.

[jodgi]

3 hours ago, Hethwill said:

Define Competitive please.

Combat... potency derived from wood, build choices, armament, upgrades and officer perks would influence all kinds of ship fighting.

A simple and "scientific" way of testing this would be to look at two equal ships and then change one factor at a time to see the effect on that ship's ability to win a fight.

Example: We found out early on that not bringing boarding mods to a duel was a tremendous disadvantage, and that golden boarding modded ships murdered lower quality boarding mods. Reload, protection, turning and stiffness (chuckle) mods aren't required to stay competitive in the same way speed and boarding mods are.

Does that answer your question?

[Hethwill]

Indeed  ... to a point.

Combat with a purpose or a symmetrical gentlemen duel ? On a hit&run purpose you bet i'm not going to even look to any combat competitivity. I will look to lethality and ability to extend away from danger.

Still we have to coexist in the same habitat, naval action OW.

Even without modules the ship lines and general construction at a shipyard, even if at a 1 dura, would be for combat with a purpose. Wood type for example makes a general difference in ship handling. The same way if it is more stiff or not, as the turn will be different.

Same with planes, same with rifles, same with tall ships.

[Koltes]

Competitive game means High Risk of Loosing everything VS High Rewards.
Competitive game play means that player skill comes first, gear after.
In WOW for example gear means more than skill.

In NA if you are a very good captain sailing green ship you most likely will lose to an average captain sailing gold ship. Whether you fight in duel or in OW makes no difference because we are comparing same types ships of different qualities and different level of skills.

In the proper PVP setting, your ship needs to have much lesser impact on the battle than your skill.
Having a gold ship should make it easier to win same skilled opponent sailing on lower quality, but not giving you pretty much 95% winning chance even against much more skilled captain.

 

[Fargo]

10 hours ago, jodgi said:

fox2run has done quite a bit of shitposting to get his point across, but he is right on the money.  Enable the thousands of potential PvP-heads out there and you have a server full of life.

If we had as many eco fans as PvP fans we wouldn't be having this discussion. 1/10 of the players truly enjoy eco stuff as much as fighting yet eco stuff is currently a prerequisite for PvP. The math does not add up even if the numbers are pulled out of my ass.

I think the majority in a game like this is neither pvp, nor eco fan, but a healthy mix. And for a good amount of these palyers pvp only isnt enough to keep playing. Looking at two years of economic development after starting with a very simple system, its consequential that many palyers left, at the latest after hyperinflation messed it up completely and devs didnt care about it. 

Some people want to activate pvp with additional pvp content, but pvp doesnt need anything in that direction. If there are players, ships, and nothing is restricting combat, there will be pvp, its as simple as that. Of course players leave faster and faster as the palyerbase shrinks and less pvp is happening, but thats not the cause of the problem. The economic part is important, like it or not. When youre forced to craft as a pvp guy, then because the eco guys left. If i was eco only, i probably wouldnt be here anymore. Of course its not only about eco. More and more restrictions for lots of aspects probably made most palyers leave.

Of course eco is required for pvp, in the same way pvp is required for eco. As a pvp player within a functional economy your "job", and the best you can do for it, is sinking as many ships as possible and maybe producing some resources. Nothing forces you deep into it. And regarding one dura, especially for pvp players it would increase the income, captured ships would be valuable.

*otherwise i very much agree on all of your points in this post

9 hours ago, Hethwill said:

Small Battles ? Large Battles ? Tournaments ? Open World raids ? PvP Events ? Most prolific ship builder ? Most cargo hauled ? Most flags planted ? Most forts destroyed ?

Define Competitive please.

I guess you cant really define it, you need to figure it out. 

In general i would say your ship is not competetive when it restricts your gameplay. When by default fast ships are too slow to catch anything. When combat ships cant negate the material disadvantage through skill against average skilled opponents. When you cant win against another boarding ship because he got better marines.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Fargo

[Cmdr RideZ]

10 hours ago, jodgi said:

Fake feature. We've done this a long time and we've seen that people want the best stuff within a reasonable time or they won't PvP or play at all. Anything below golden quality is viewed as shit and is sold or broken up. This is not an opinion, it is how we are whether we like it or not.

I see your point but...  If there were 1 dura ships, there would be plenty of 1 dura exceptional ships.  People would capture those and those all would be still equally useful as if those were new.  So instead of having just 1 dura ships, I think it would be better to have quality drop implemented.

Sometimes my enemy surrenders, more than once it has been something else than exceptional.  For a new guy, MC ship with 3 permanent upgrades could be a decent option.  I could sail one, maybe, at least after wipe..  And depending how expensive it would be to craft exceptionals, so could sail MC as well some time.  Right now, sure, I sail just exceptionals.

Quality system could be a better alternative for durability system.

[jodgi]

7 hours ago, koltes said:

Having a gold ship should make it easier to win same skilled opponent sailing on lower quality

And that is a threat to my idea of a competitive environment.

 

7 hours ago, Fargo said:

Some people want to activate pvp with additional pvp content, but pvp doesnt need anything in that direction.

Completely agree.

 

8 hours ago, Fargo said:

If there are players, ships, and nothing is restricting combat, there will be pvp, its as simple as that.

Name one factor that restricts PvP more than fear of loss ( ≈  fear of being forced into PvE grind).

8 hours ago, Fargo said:

 When youre forced to craft as a pvp guy, then because the eco guys left.

I crafted from day one. I correctly predicted that the best ships and equipment would never be easily obtainable on the market. I'm pointing out that the inherent problem with eco as a prerequisite for PvP has been pronounced since the days when we had thousands of concurrent players.

 

8 hours ago, Fargo said:

In general i would say your ship is not competetive when it restricts your gameplay. When by default fast ships are too slow to catch anything. When combat ships cant negate the material disadvantage through skill against average skilled opponents. When you cant win against another boarding ship because he got better marines

Exactly.

I'm not here to pick a fight. I'm willing to test 1 dura or whatever. If it works and all players are enabled to PvP in competitive ships I'll be happy and not miffed that I was wrong.

[Koltes]

1 hour ago, jodgi said:

9 hours ago, koltes said:

Having a gold ship should make it easier to win same skilled opponent sailing on lower quality

And that is a threat to my idea of a competitive environment.

 

Ok you totally lost me here lol. Care to explain? How is it a threat or better say how is it worse than what we have now?

 

[jodgi]

Threat to a competitive environment as in "A threat to democracy" or "threat to national security".

Gold ships making it much easier to win over equal skilled players in green, blue or even purple ships is a very bad thing in my opinion.

[Fargo]

2 hours ago, jodgi said:

I crafted from day one. I correctly predicted that the best ships and equipment would never be easily obtainable on the market. I'm pointing out that the inherent problem with eco as a prerequisite for PvP has been pronounced since the days when we had thousands of concurrent players.

Well, the problem with good ships for a long time was the 50% speed chance. On average this doubled the cost+time for a good ship. Given the amount of golden trash ships around i doubt there would have been a problem with the amount of ships.

2 hours ago, jodgi said:

Name one factor that restricts PvP more than fear of loss ( ≈  fear of

I mean direct restrictions saying you are not allowed to do x, if... like br limit, defensive tagging used to refuse pvp, having to spend perk points for better game mechanics, ROE ofcourse (but thats more complicated). Lets say you would have to collect pve points to be able to attack a player, similar to hostility. There can be a lot of stuff restricting pvp directly.

Fear of loss is restricting you indirectly. This means there arent enough (competetive) ships around, so ship value becomes so high some people dont risk sailing. Of course thats really bad. There should be very valuable ships, but these should not be needed to be competetive. This would be a win win situation. There would be a motivation to play for the perfect ship, and it would be the perfect inflation control. With more money around people would buy more golden ships, not really worth the money.

All you need is balancing, and that is the problem. We cant say ok lets make fine ships competetive with golden ships and increase the cost to make it perfect. This would need some time.

[fox2run]

2 hours ago, jodgi said:

Threat to a competitive environment as in "A threat to democracy" or "threat to national security".

Gold ships making it much easier to win over equal skilled players in green, blue or even purple ships is a very bad thing in my opinion.

Even though this guy had been shit-posting a lot, he actually has a point.

[Koltes]

9 hours ago, jodgi said:

Threat to a competitive environment as in "A threat to democracy" or "threat to national security".

Gold ships making it much easier to win over equal skilled players in green, blue or even purple ships is a very bad thing in my opinion.

You need to re-read my posts more carefully and actually think what I said. 

 

19 hours ago, koltes said:

In the proper PVP setting, your ship needs to have much lesser impact on the battle than your skill.
Having a gold ship should make it easier to win same skilled opponent sailing on lower quality, but not giving you pretty much 95% winning chance even against much more skilled captain.

 

[jodgi]

20 hours ago, koltes said:

Having a gold ship should make it easier to win same skilled opponent sailing on lower quality

I don't have to re-read, I don't approve of that^ statement. Besides, golden vs. blue considering same skill pretty much is 80-90% chance to win.

[Koltes]

4 hours ago, jodgi said:

I don't have to re-read, I don't approve of that^ statement. Besides, golden vs. blue considering same skill pretty much is 80-90% chance to win.

Today you have much worse case of ship quality importance vs skill. In my proposal I say that ship difference should NOT have as much impact and some how you say this is not right? 

I say skill must be more important than gear. You say that you disagree but saying the same thing. 

Today if you sail green ship then ANYONE on a gold ship will sink you unless they have bought the game 5mins ago, but then again they would not sail gold ships. No matter your skill if you are on a green ship you are MEET.

In my proposal when ships made from different quality woods with same characteristic (green live oak gives same armor thickness) so its still bounces just as good as gold live oak.

Today green ships have 1 upgrade slot and this is a huge drop, so much so that facing maybe not a compete newb, but just an average skilled captain (somewhat experienced) will get you killed. Making green ships same characteristics as its gold counterpart, and allow on all ships using same number of upgrades is going to make them equal, so skill will become MUCH more important factor.

The only limitation of quality is limitation of quality of upgardes. You still have them, just 2-3% lower than gold. This green ship then will allow you to sail it conpetitively. You will actually sink newbs, average captains and be a hard target for good captains. 

Of course if you sail green vs gold and both of you are equal in skill he will have an edge on you. Thats OK! He sails a better ship. But its not 100% that he will win, because your ships pretty much the same. Its the upgrades that are worse. They are still there, but a little worse. And if you are THAT good that 2% drop of upgrades makes it difference for you that you can't bare it then you should be good enough to use other means to your advantage.

For example if you are board fit and he is fight fit it wont matter if your board fit could have been better. You are still better in boarding than him. Use it to your advantage and voila you just killed gold ship on a green ship.

You cant have different quality ships and still make them all the same! What is your idea then?

[Rebel Witch]

multi dura ships make zero sense in a game that is supposedly trying to be true to the age of sail. It is long overdue that the dev's at least "try" 1 dura in this game since i guess its still in Beta.

So if this game is in Beta still, does it mean the test server of the test servers is charlie or alpha?