fransgelden

Make ships having limited ammunition.

79 posts in this topic

Ships doesn't have infinite ammunition on their decks.

Let captains buy some ammunition to restock on the balls/chain/grape or they can craft their own ammunition.

Ships must have sliders where captains can load different compositions of ammunitions to make ships more dedicated for specific purpose, like captains can load the following order balls: 50%, chain: 25%, grape: 25% or balls: 25% and chain: 75%

This will lead to interesting situation where some ships might get out of ammunition and force players to board each other or the level of ammunition will determine the likelihood of fire/explosion. Captains can restock ammunition like they can restock on medkits and repairkits.

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No, if you are out of ammo you are useless. Its not CSGO where you can just pick up another weapon. Boarding is very situational and is very hard / impossible to do against players who know what they are doing.

So its just a punishment for players who do too good in a fight, without a chance to recover.

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On 2/9/2017 at 3:52 PM, JonSnowLetsGo said:

No, if you are out of ammo you are useless. Its not CSGO where you can just pick up another weapon. Boarding is very situational and is very hard / impossible to do against players who know what they are doing.

So its just a punishment for players who do too good in a fight, without a chance to recover.

You can have limited ammo and it will work ok. Basically all we need to do is make Current one(Default) with 0 damage bonus, and Craftable ammo with +5% damage bonus. All pvpers will only roll with Craftable ammo giving business to crafters and PvE will still go with Default  So, if you do run out of ammo you auto switch to Default (Unlimited). We need this if Devs want to keep Econ healthy in this game. 

Making ammo run out to 0 like fransgelden suggested is a game killer. It will never work.

 

Edited by Ned Loe
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remembering that men of war tended to carry enough roundshot for hours of prolonged heavy fighting, I think that only specialty ammunition (double shot, double charge, grape, chain) should be limited or have to be restocked. Additionally, one could have varying qualities of shot (langridge<grape<canister/chain/ball and chain/star shot). This should all be able to be crafted by players.

 

No, we shouldn't get magic explosive roundshot, I can't imagine why anyone (cough potbs) would think it's a good idea to keep thousands of literal bombs on the deck of a fighting ship in battle when the charges themselves were already dangerous enough.

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Its a great idea 

but the problem is that it is a great idea for a new player (more immersion, tactical thought etc). Once you start returning for ammo from time to time - you will hate it. 

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6 minutes ago, SirSamuelHood said:

remembering that men of war tended to carry enough roundshot for hours of prolonged heavy fighting, I think that only specialty ammunition (double shot, double charge, grape, chain) should be limited or have to be restocked. Additionally, one could have varying qualities of shot (langridge<grape<canister/chain/ball and chain/star shot). This should all be able to be crafted by players.

 

No, we shouldn't get magic explosive roundshot, I can't imagine why anyone (cough potbs) would think it's a good idea to keep thousands of literal bombs on the deck of a fighting ship in battle when the charges themselves were already dangerous enough.

I understand you are trying to push simulator game here, but NA is boring as it is today. Giving this game more things to craft is a healthy step forward. Potbs has some of the revolutionary items MMOS lack today and it should be researched more deeply. 

Edited by Ned Loe

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7 minutes ago, admin said:

Its a great idea 

but the problem is that it is a great idea for a new player (more immersion, tactical thought etc). Once you start returning for ammo from time to time - you will hate it. 

That's why it should be an option. PvP - Craftable, PvE - Default. True PvPer will squeeze every possible percent out of this game to be on the top of the game. ex. Introducing Rivers/River Structures to the game can be paired with Ammo crafting very effectively. 

Edited by Ned Loe

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Ships of the line for the royal navy were equipped with roughly 40 round shots per gun in peace time, with a some extra specialist ammunition, Frigates were usually given around 50 shots per gun, these numbers reflected fairly standardly throughout Europe.

Figures for HMS Victory:
Round, 32pdr: 2400.
Round, 24pdr: 2800
Round, 12pdr: 4200
Round, 68pdr Carronade: 84
Grape, 32pdr: 90
Grape, 24pdr: 112
Grape, 12prd: 168
Grape, 68pdr carronade: 7 Case shot, 7 Grape in tin.
Double headed (Chain/Bar), 32pdr: 90
Double headed, 24 pdr: 84
Double headed, 12pdr: 126
Paper cartridge (Gunpowder), 32pdr: 2580
Paper cartridge, 24pdr: 2996
Paper cartridge, 12pdr: 4728

I believe these numbers are fairly typical for ships of the line for Europe, however I know the US navy equipped their ships with a significantly higher proportion of double headed shot, I remember it being quoted at something like 25% of the total ammunation, this chain/bar heavy ammo load is highly disproportionate to typical European navies though, mainly due to the US fleet being unable to compete on level grounds with their larger european rivals, so were more focussed on harassing commerce and small naval ships.

Personally I would quite like to see a much lower limit on chain and grape shot, the way the game works currently makes it unrealistic in the way you can fire entirely grape or chain in a fight, I don't like the idea of a general ammunition supply but would like to see something brought in to give you a limited supply of ammunition per battle, although not forcing players to keep restocking on their supplies every fight, similarly to how crew used to work where it would magically refill after battle.

Edited by Fluffy Fishy
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1 minute ago, Fluffy Fishy said:

Ships of the line for the royal navy were equipped with roughly 40 round shots per gun, with a some extra specialist ammunition, Frigates were usually given around 50 shots per gun, these numbers reflected fairly standardly throughout Europe.

Figures for HMS Victory:
Round, 32pdr: 2400.
Round, 24pdr: 2800
Round, 12pdr: 4200
Round, 68pdr Carronade: 84
Grape, 32pdr: 90
Grape, 24pdr: 112
Grape, 12prd: 168
Grape, 68pdr Carronade: 7 Case shot, 7 Grape in tin.
Double Headed (Chain/Bar), 32pdr: 90
Double Headed, 24 pdr: 84
Double Headed, 12pdr: 126
Paper cartridge (Gunpowder), 32pdr: 2580
Paper cartridge, 24pdr: 2996
Paper cartridge, 12pdr: 4728

I believe these numbers are fairly typical for ships of the line for Europe, however I know the US navy equipped their ships with a significantly higher proportion of double headed shot, I remember it being quoted at something like 25% of the total ammunation, this chain/bar heavy ammo load is highly disproportionate to typical European navies though, mainly due to the US fleet being unable to compete on level grounds with their larger european rivals, so were more focussed on harassing commerce and small naval ships.

Personally I would quite like to see a much lower limit on chain and grape shot, the way the game works currently makes it unrealistic in the way you can fire entirely grape or chain in a fight, I don't like the idea of a general ammunition supply but would like to see something brought in to give you a limited supply of ammunition per battle, although not forcing players to keep restocking on their supplies every fight, similarly to how crew used to work where it would magically refill after battle.

Are we trying to make a simulator game here?

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21 minutes ago, admin said:

Its a great idea 

but the problem is that it is a great idea for a new player (more immersion, tactical thought etc). Once you start returning for ammo from time to time - you will hate it. 

It would suffice to have limited ammo in battle instances (e.g., in same fashion as double shot, double charge). Magic refill in OW should be allowed I suppose and would be a necessary evil. 

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1 minute ago, Ned Loe said:

Are we trying to make a simulator game here?

No but the numbers put a useful perspective into the discussion, I'd be up for something like either limiting specialist ammo and keeping round shot unlimited, or setting an unrealistic high ammo count, say 60-80 shots per gun for SoLs and 75-100 for frigates. The idea that a ship can forever spit out iron seems a bit meh, and no one ever seems too bothered by restricted ammo in FPS games, it just changes how you play tactically, even limited to 40-50 shots per battle I don't feel like I often use that many broadsides.

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Round shot should have unlimited ammunition. Chain is a real problem atm because it's so effective, just aim in the general direction of the enemy and profit. We have so many fights were the enemy is just using chain the entire battle even if they outgun us! Chain is the shot that needs a limited amount of ammunition the most.

So give chain and grape 80 shots, and Round shot should stay unlimited.

Edit: Of course you don't have to sail back to port to get back the 80 shots of chain/grape for every battle. It should work like double shot/charge works now, just without requiring an officer perk.

Edited by Pada
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50 minutes ago, admin said:

Its a great idea 

but the problem is that it is a great idea for a new player (more immersion, tactical thought etc). Once you start returning for ammo from time to time - you will hate it. 

I also think its a good idea, but also agree that going back to pick up more ammo is gonna be tiresome.
I think the main goal of limiting the ammo is to have less ammo available in battle.

In my opinion a good compromise would be to limit chain/grape shot ammo in Battle Instance only like repairs. After the battle your ammo is restored.
In order to take more ammo to battle there could be Extended Mags perk/upgrade that also has affect on speed for example.

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i think that limiting chain and grape ammo is a good idea: something like 20 total broadside of chain and 20 of grapes. obviusly on istance end amo are restored for free. crew cost are already high enough for new players :)

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3 hours ago, admin said:

Its a great idea 

but the problem is that it is a great idea for a new player (more immersion, tactical thought etc). Once you start returning for ammo from time to time - you will hate it. 

you try to make every aspect of combat as close to realistic as possible, having limited ammunition should have been in a long time ago.  Someone could fill the hold with different types and not really notice the difference until after a real long fight, would make it interesting for people wanting to capture ship for loot having to sacrifice ammo for cargo space.  Assuming we will hate it is no argument, you have tried many things that we hated.

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3 hours ago, Ned Loe said:

Are we trying to make a simulator game here?

Is not a realistic/sim game NA? Or a arcade game with magic bonus, artefact rules, magic cards (upgrades)?

"NAVAL ACTION IS AN EXCITING, REALISTIC, AND BEAUTIFULLY DETAILED NAVAL COMBAT GAME IMMERSING PLAYERS INTO THE EXPERIENCE OF THE MOST BEAUTIFUL PERIOD OF NAVAL HISTORY"

There is so written on the site of the Naval Action. And at the time I have spent my money for a game like that.

I don't know Potbs, and i don't care to know. You can avoid it to nominate almost always. This is Naval Action.

It seems that i m not the only here to want more realism in the game.

Some suggestions:
- limited ammunition
- you can not recover the crew in OW, but only in ports.

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5 hours ago, Ned Loe said:

I understand you are trying to push simulator game here, but NA is boring as it is today. Giving this game more things to craft is a healthy step forward. Potbs has some of the revolutionary items MMOS lack today and it should be researched more deeply. 

Oh gosh, I hope Econ doesn't become as complex as POTBS. There were people in that game that had 12 alts just to have a stable shipbuilding stream for frigates. If NA Econ gets that complex :( 😭

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21 minutes ago, Anne Wildcat said:

Oh gosh, I hope Econ doesn't become as complex as POTBS. There were people in that game that had 12 alts just to have a stable shipbuilding stream for frigates. If NA Econ gets that complex :( 😭

On the other hand NA currently feels like the opposite end of the spectrum, I feel pretty bad knowing that I can craft as much and as well as anyone (bar the newest blueprints), and have abundant money and resources to do so, despite having had absolutely zero interest in being a dedicated trader or a crafter.

Granted, the testing phase is overly generous and perks are still infinite, so hopefully the real deal will be quite different. Wish we were testing the actual game.

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10 hours ago, admin said:

Its a great idea 

but the problem is that it is a great idea for a new player (more immersion, tactical thought etc). Once you start returning for ammo from time to time - you will hate it. 

Currently I have to go to port frequently to restock on crew and repairs, so why not including ammunition as well? It will give another aspect to the economy and make the charcoal,  saltpeter and sulfur useful to craft into ammokits.

I didn't implement this idea to limit people and their battle and as somebody else said, the ships carried enough ammunition to fire for hours on end, but to give a choice in what shot types you want to focus on, like rounds or chain.

Take War Thunder for example, most tanks you can choose what type of shot you want to load and how much. Tanks who have more ammunition in them are tend to explode easier than tanks with less ammunition.

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Limited Chains and grape = yes.

But roundshot limited is not a good thing. Don't forget that ships have too much thickness atm.

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The amount of roundshot carried by ships was superfluous enough that there's no way we in a normal engagement would expend it all, thus it shouldn't be limited. double ball/charge, chain, and grape should be limited though.

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I wonder if its a good idea if we can remove the double shot/charge perk and replace it into an ammokit? Captains can then craft double shot/charge and stock their ship with it and replenish it after ever battle.

I wish to see a purpose for saltpetre/charcoal/sulphur in the economy and to craft ammunition with it is the perfect option available.

We can make round shots infinite, then you can choose between 2 different shot types, like chain and double charge chain or double shot grape and chain or double shot balls and double charge chain. Normal chain and grape will be free, but limited and double shot/charge must be purchased from port/crafted.

At the moment everyone has one of the 2 perks and its annoying that you have now 1 less perk slot to have something that makes a limited difference due to limited quantities available. And I believe that most captains in the 18th century must have known about double shot/charge?

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For me, rounds not be crafted, but simple buy from ports (like cannons). 

Perks are nonsense, remove them. The numbers and type of ammunitions 'd be set by players. 

In any case the quantity of stowed shots were not small, 80-100 shots for weapon; then definitely sufficient for each battle. The situation becomes rather interesting when you leave the battle in OW, and having to decide whether to continue the patroll or go to supply in a nearby port.

I honestly do not understand this mistrust in having limited ammunition.

18 hours ago, admin said:

Its a great idea 

but the problem is that it is a great idea for a new player (more immersion, tactical thought etc). Once you start returning for ammo from time to time - you will hate it. 

Why? Admin, can you explain it better?

I play this game from more 2 years, 1500 h; and i like the idea of limited ammo.

 

OT: There are some planes of WWII have a very limited quantity of ammunition. For example, the Bf 109 with 30mm has 65 rounds (enough for only 6 seconds of the fire). 6 seconds. Here, with those 6 seconds of fire we achieve it to make a sortie of one hour, possibly shotdown some aircrafts; when ammo or fuel are over, we return to base to refuel. Easy.

Edited by JeanJacques de Montpellier

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Limited chain and grape, for sure.

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3 hours ago, maturin said:

Limited chain and grape, for sure.

could you provide example ration of grape and chain for 

Pickle

Rattlesnake

Trincomalle

Hms victory

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