3 circle RoE proposal:

[Yar Matey]

I would like to propose a slight modification to the 2 circle RoE system we have now and make it the 3 tagging circle.  As everyone knows, NPC fleets are all over the place, and make getting a good tag in enemy waters very hard, and in some cases, impossible.  I would like to introduce everyone to the 3 circle system.  

Proposal: 

• Tagging circle stays as is
• Outer circle that automatically pulls everyone including NPC fleets in to be cut in half of the current outer circle size
• and lastly, a 3rd circle, that is double the size of the current outer pull in circle, where players are given the option to join the battle, but only have a 5 second window of opportunity to join. 

Pros: 

• Less NPC fleets getting pulled into combat
• No more getting stuck out of a battle with your friends because he was attacked just out of range of the pull in circle
• Battles stay open for 5 seconds so players in the area have a chance to join

Cons:

• Players may get pulled in that you didn't know were there at the time when tagging
• Players in home waters will have less help from NPC fleets (could potentially hurt newer players to the game and solo players, PvE'ers and, solo Traders)

Thoughts? 

Edited February 6, 2017 by Yar Matey

[Corona Lisa]

The idea of giving people the choice to join the combat instead of just pulling them in is great.

I think that the 3rd circle is way too big, because

• If you join at the edge of that circle you are basically a nonfactor in the battle because you are so far away 
• its boring to sail 40 mins or even longer to reach the fight.

 

I actually like the 2 circle system, just delete all NPC fleets and allow joining for 2 mins =)

 

 

btw, the colors of your picture are cancer

Edited February 6, 2017 by JonSnowLetsGo

[Prater]

Maybe make it a 10 second window to join?  When the battle starts, have it take note of everyone's position so if you continue to sail you won't get any closer and you will start back where you were when the battle started.  This way we make sure people have time to see it and that there isn't any lag locking someone out.

Edited February 6, 2017 by Prater

[Guest]

As nice as the 'optional join dialogue' is, there is a core issue - how do you determine the BR for the tag when people can choose not to join?

[Yar Matey]

36 minutes ago, Aegir said:

As nice as the 'optional join dialogue' is, there is a core issue - how do you determine the BR for the tag when people can choose not to join?

Only 2 inner circles count towards BR. 

[van der Clam]

I'd like this idea around PBs. Maybe have this system implemented in a circle around the port, a circle of attack like the circle of protection at nation's capitals. In OW, I just want all battles to stay open until all of one team has sunk, escaped, or been captured.

[Pada]

I think your 3rd circle is way to big. But yea the AI thing is a real problem that need to get addressed.

[Yar Matey]

@Wraith Sorry, if I knew you already created a post proposing this idea, I would have just bumped it instead of starting a new thread.  I do search before starting new topics to see if the topic has already been started.

[Koltes]

Honestly pleeeeease no more circles lol All these circles are added to counter some other none realistic mechanics. Creating more circles will reveal more problems and more circles will be suggested.

Very simple mechanics with less options to exploit:

1. There should be one and only one invisible circle to tag;
2. No one is pulled in automatically;
3. If more enemies are within tagging range from the attacker he should be able to manually tag them (number of ships tagged by player is based on his total BR pull strengh);
4. No AI in the battles whatsoever (unless tagged directly, but then no players can be dragged in);
5. Anyone should be able to join any battles no matter BR;
6. Battle instance stays open for 10 min minimum;
7. To join player must sail close to the swords and click join, he will then appear in the battle from the OW direction when he joined;
8. Joined players appear at distance to the main combat zone in battle instance that is relative to the time it took them to join. If they had to sail for all 10 mins to get into the battle they will appear very far away from the target.

Thats it. It is very simple to understand and learn. Its hard to exploit because everything is done by players not the game itself

[maturin]

Quote

6. Battle instance stays open for 10 min minimum;

Great, time for another convention of the Flat Earth Society of Nassau.

[fox2run]

A good idea. 20 seconds minimum, though for outer ring. 5 sec is way too short.

The main thing is to get some battles going in OW that is not too complicated to find and join. 

It can be done in different ways. 3 circles and open timers are a good way.

After the battles screen closes automatically, no big ganking fleets can hide anymore. Hence we can open up for the action again.

 

[Hethwill]

9 hours ago, maturin said:

Great, time for another convention of the Flat Earth Society of Nassau.

Thanks for the name idea, might use it on a project.

Roll a D6.

On a 1 to 5 the lookout notices nothing. On a 6+ the lookout notices a battle.

 

 

[DeRuyter]

17 hours ago, koltes said:

Honestly pleeeeease no more circles lol All these circles are added to counter some other none realistic mechanics. Creating more circles will reveal more problems and more circles will be suggested.

Very simple mechanics with less options to exploit:

1. There should be one and only one invisible circle to tag;
2. No one is pulled in automatically;
3. If more enemies are within tagging range from the attacker he should be able to manually tag them (number of ships tagged by player is based on his total BR pull strengh);
4. No AI in the battles whatsoever (unless tagged directly, but then no players can be dragged in);
5. Anyone should be able to join any battles no matter BR;
6. Battle instance stays open for 10 min minimum;
7. To join player must sail close to the swords and click join, he will then appear in the battle from the OW direction when he joined;
8. Joined players appear at distance to the main combat zone in battle instance that is relative to the time it took them to join. If they had to sail for all 10 mins to get into the battle they will appear very far away from the target.

Thats it. It is very simple to understand and learn. Its hard to exploit because everything is done by players not the game itself

This type of ROE has been proposed before, while it would be great to spawn in at a relative distance I believe the devs have already said it can't be done because of land in battles. Too bad really because it would solve a lot of issues. Keep in mind that someone joining at 10 mins would be so far away the battle would be over the horizon and sailing to the sound of the guns or muzzle flashes probably wouldn't get you there before time expired.

[Koltes]

1 hour ago, DeRuyter said:

This type of ROE has been proposed before, while it would be great to spawn in at a relative distance I believe the devs have already said it can't be done because of land in battles. Too bad really because it would solve a lot of issues. Keep in mind that someone joining at 10 mins would be so far away the battle would be over the horizon and sailing to the sound of the guns or muzzle flashes probably wouldn't get you there before time expired.

Mate dont know where/when they said that but its definitely doable and much easier than you might think. Because you have to sail directly to the joining cross your ships position is the same as everyone else. The game just need to calculate how far away to drop you from the combat epicenter in BI and avoid land. This is not hard

Edited February 7, 2017 by koltes

[Angus McGregor]

1 hour ago, koltes said:

Mate dont know where/when they said that but its definitely doable and much easier than you might think. Because you have to sail directly to the joining cross your ships position is the same as everyone else. The game just need to calculate how far away to drop you from the combat epicenter in BI and avoid land. This is not hard

Yes it sounds quite doable - but admin has said more than once that the code cannot tell if any given spot in the battle instance is water or land. I don't get it either, but that's what's been said.

[Koltes]

1 minute ago, Angus McGregor said:

Yes it sounds quite doable - but admin has said more than once that the code cannot tell if any given spot in the battle instance is water or land. I don't get it either, but that's what's been said.

Which means all joining calculations needs to be done on OW side, thats it.
Positioning in the actual instance will be a result of OW calculations

[Yar Matey]

@koltes  battles open for 10 min would be ok with really low server pop, but as soon as you try it on the EU server, it breaks down and does not work.  Battles need to close instantly or as soon as possible.  Too many good fights have been ruined because 10 more guys plop in on one side or another.

The reason why the third outer circle is so large is to give players who want to join even though they are far away, the opertunity to play with their friends.  Too many times someone has been left out of a battle simply because he was just outside of the second circle.  If you are in OW with your friends but have some distance on you, you should not be prevented from joining the fight with your friends, hence why we have the very large outer circle with the option to join the battle.

Edited February 7, 2017 by Yar Matey

[Koltes]

8 minutes ago, Yar Matey said:

@koltes  battles open for 10 min would be ok with really low server pop, but as soon as you try it on the EU server, it breaks down and does not work.  Battles need to close instantly or as soon as possible.

the reason why the second circle is so large is to give players who want to join even though they are far away, the opertunity to play with their friends.  Too many times someone has been left out of a battle simply because he was just outside of the second circle.  If you are in OW with your friends but have some distance on you, you should not be prevented from joining the fight with your friends, hence why we have the very large outer circle with the option to join the battle.

You see man I got a problem with that.
I look at it like this. I sail for real and see gunsmoke on horizon. This is my waters and I want to intercept and check if anyone needs help etc. Then I see the battle and I cant join? This is hardly any realistic. The Battle Instance is there to sort lag issues as you cant fight in OW. If it would not been for a lag and we would sail OW like its one battle instance then anyone would be able to naturally get involved in any battles free-for-all style. So BI's sole purpose to deal with lag issues. Using it to deny entry to the instance because of timer is just doesnt agree with me on any level.

I understand that keeping battle open for indefinite time would probably cause more grief, however 10 mins is very reasonable.
Dont forget that if GPS will also gets removed as it should then it wont be an issue. It will be just hard as to find the battle for most people anyways.

Edited February 7, 2017 by koltes

[Yar Matey]

8 minutes ago, koltes said:

I understand that keeping battle open for indefinite time would probably cause more grief, however 10 mins is very reasonable.
Dont forget that if GPS will also gets removed as it should then it wont be an issue. It will be just hard as to find the battle for most people anyways.

Not it's not reasonable!  You want to see what it's like with open battles, make a character on PvP1, go to the admiralty event and when you finnaly have your good almost evenly matched battle turn into a 6 vs 12 gank fest for the 10th time losing your ship that took you a week to craft with exceptional permanent upgrades you will see how infuriating open battles are like.  It's not fun!  

[Koltes]

This is why everything else needs to be done and tuned with it.
Speed in regions needs to be decreased. GPS removed. The longer it takes you join PB the further away you will appear from the enemy or combat epicenter. So if you really get ganked then you will have plenty of opportunity to retreat, or deal with immediate threat and then switch to the coming enemy or retreat. Reinforcements joining in 10 mins would appear so far away it will take them good 20 mins just to sail to you not taking into account if you start sailing away from them.
I also played on PVP1 and played on PVP2 when it had 10 times the population. I know what you are talking about and I get that. 10 min will not be an issue if the above is also done as part of the ROE mechanic

 

[Yar Matey]

Ok, lets assume that we could get your idea to work, and that battles stayed open for 10 min, but you spawned farther and farther away from the battle the longer it took you to get to the battle.  It is still a flawed system, because players inside the battle are at an extremely large disadvantage to players outside the battle, in that, they can plop into an open battle and completely change the dynamic and direction of a battle.

Scenario 1:  You and 2 of your friends are sailing along, you run into a group of 3 enemy player ships, you tag them for battle, you are in an evenly matched 3v3 fight, 8 min into the battle, your side is dominating and killing the enemy, and it is looking like a sure victory for your side, until that random 4th and 5th player joined, well crap!  Now all of a sudden the good battle you were fighting and winning has turned into a chase fest.  The enemies you were fighting have switched to chain and are now chaining your sales preventing you from escaping.  Eventually the other 2 players catch up and sink all 3 of you.  

Scenario 2:  You are after a player trade ship you decide to tag him and attack.  Battle commences!  Unfortunately, for you, you just got tricked, 3 more players pop out of battle screen and join your battle, you lose your ship to the trader and the 3 other players in surprises that joined the battle.  OK OK, so you discovered how to stop players from magic battle hopping.  They hide in port and just pop out and join, ok, lets say there are no ports in sight.......  The player you attacked in a trade ship, moans in nation chat for help, and 3 guys happen to be in the area and join your battle.  

This is why battles need to close instantly.  I understand that players in their home waters around nation capitals should expect a certain level of protection and thats why we have fleets, forts, and towers, and that is also why we need the 2nd circle, along with determining BR for large battles and screening.  

Edited February 7, 2017 by Yar Matey

[Koltes]

14 minutes ago, Yar Matey said:

Ok, lets assume that we could get your idea to work, and that battles stayed open for 10 min, but you spawned farther and farther away from the battle the longer it took you to get to the battle.  It is still a flawed system, because players inside the battle are at an extremely large disadvantage to players outside the battle, in that, they can plop into an open battle and completely change the dynamic and direction of a battle.

Scenario 1:  You and 2 of your friends are sailing along, you run into a group of 3 enemy player ships, you tag them for battle, you are in an evenly matched 3v3 fight, 8 min into the battle, your side is dominating and killing the enemy, and it is looking like a sure victory for your side, until that random 4th and 5th player joined, well crap!  Now all of a sudden the good battle you were fighting and winning has turned into a chase fest.  The enemies you were fighting have switched to chain and are now chaining your sales preventing you from escaping.  Eventually the other 2 players catch up and sink all 3 of you.  

Scenario 2:  You are after a player trade ship you decide to tag him and attack.  Battle commences!  Unfortunately, for you, you just got tricked, 3 more players pop out of battle screen and join your battle, you lose your ship to the trader and the 3 other players in surprises that joined the battle.  OK OK, so you discovered how to stop players from magic battle hopping.  They hide in port and just pop out and join, ok, lets say there are no ports in sight.......  The player you attacked in a trade ship, moans in nation chat for help, and 3 guys happen to be in the area and join your battle.  

This is why battles need to close instantly.  I understand that players in their home waters around nation capitals should expect a certain level of protection and thats why we have fleets, forts, and towers, and that is also why we need the 2nd circle, along with determining BR for large battles and screening.  

or Scenario 3: 10 of you tagging 3 enemy. Same gank, but only one sided and your enemy have no opportunity to expect reinforcements. How is that more fair?

Instant battle closes denies team work, nation chat communications for people. There will be no longer help calling. This denies them the whole lot of content as guarding navy. Im experienced player and pirate. If I hunt (and I usually hunt solo) I actually want them ask for help. I want the activity on their side. Its all part of it if im hunting outside their capital. Indeed I should expect reinforcements to arrive, but thats part of the whole thrill. I don't mind being ganked either. Been in that situation more than I can count and my Reno still has 4 dura after 4 months hunting right outside KPR.

When I sail solo I always sail the fast ship such as Reno and pick my targets carefully. I engage pretty much anything. Sunk so many 4th rates in it, but also had some 3rd and 2nd rates. Got 1st rate once too. If players are too experienced and there is no way I could stern camp/decrew for indefinite time I still have option to disengage. Having fast ship you are in control.

OW is opportunistic PVP. If you hunt in groups, then you gank when you attack, but also risking being ganked in return. Sounds fair. All you trying to do is too see this one sided man. Thats not how balanced mechanics roll

[fox2run]

12 hours ago, DeRuyter said:

This type of ROE has been proposed before, while it would be great to spawn in at a relative distance I believe the devs have already said it can't be done because of land in battles. Too bad really because it would solve a lot of issues. Keep in mind that someone joining at 10 mins would be so far away the battle would be over the horizon and sailing to the sound of the guns or muzzle flashes probably wouldn't get you there before time expired.

10 min could be far away in a strict realism sence of things. But not in a gameplay view. Exciting multiplayer battles are to prefer

over a dull OW. How can we enhance this? By dropping a lot of rules and restrictions, that makes it hard to meet other players in battle. That's no Einstein in my book.

[UberAegis]

There will never be a perfect solution to this one. With regard to above scenarios my feeling is if you are attacked by 10 ships you know what is going to happen.if you don t see them in time or cannot outrun them that is unfortunate but if one of your players has signalling perk(that works as intended) there may be a chance of help. On the flipside if I engage a trader and have checked the horizon for enemy ships before engaging and then get jumped whilst in battle there is no strategy I could employ to prevent that. I do think that if attacking within a certain radius of port the battle instance should stay open to allow for reinforcements (that is a risk the attacking player takes for attacking so close to port). I honestly cannot see a solution which would keep all players happy so we may all have to accept a compromise.

[DeRuyter]

13 hours ago, fox2run said:

10 min could be far away in a strict realism sence of things. But not in a gameplay view. Exciting multiplayer battles are to prefer

over a dull OW. How can we enhance this? By dropping a lot of rules and restrictions, that makes it hard to meet other players in battle. That's no Einstein in my book.

So do you agree with @koltes proposal in the OP then?